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gerry
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Post by gerry on Nov 28, 2015 12:57:35 GMT -5
If we are lucky Rusney, JBJ, Mookie will compare favorably to any great Sox OF, including those in my lifetime with Williams and DiMaggio, Piersall and Jensen. If we are not so lucky, the offense may not measure up, but they will provide the best OF defense I have ever seen. I wonder who will be in reserve, as there are some really good veteran options with CBYoung, deAza and local boy Rajai Davis. The current guys are collectively the best defensive outfield we have had hands down IMO. Prior outfields were known for a combination of offense and defense in an era when defense was less valued and athleticism much less on display. Today's good OFs are acrobats.....not seen across baseball in prior times. Look at Web Gems on any night and realize that we do not have a 'corner' on that type of player either. Prior 'great outfields' were known as such because they were combo guys....very good offense and good defense. Lynn was a graceful CF with a big bat but didn't cover the ground that JBJ does nor have that arm. Yaz could play the wall but I think lost range by the time Lynn & Rice came aboard and never had a real strong arm . Dewey as outstanding. Rice was well...Rice. Piersall and Jensen were outstanding defensively with offensive prowess. DiMaggio from reports was a heckuva defensive CF. Williams was an offensive juggernaut but except for his very early years, would be considered a decided defensive liability by today's standards. Good snapshot. Ted Williams, however, came up in RF and was moved to LF at Fenway. It was probably his remarkable eyesight, but he played the Wall like a master and had a decent arm. I don't remember him being a defensive liability, but as you said, athleticism was less of a Sox criterion back then. IMO even the DiMaggios' remarkable defense might be more average next to today's athletes. Castillo's plucking balls of the Wall actually reminded me of a lot of Ted, but Castillo's arm reminded me more of Dewey. Imagine the Assists he will rack up in LF, and the runners that will not advance out of caution, and the runs he will save. 2015 was his actual rookie year, so his bat and baserunning get a pass as he develops into the weapon we suspect he will become. For defense alone, this OF is worth the ticket price. As the other tools emerge, they may well be a good reason to go to games.
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Post by blizzards39 on Nov 28, 2015 13:40:36 GMT -5
Not trying to sway off topic but add in what is hopefully an improved swihart/Vazquez, and a middle of Xander and Petty and are overall defence may be pretty good. A lot will depend on how 1B goes. Also I wonder how much of an impact good defence and a young promising team has when it comes time to trying to sign top FAs (aka David price)
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Post by xanderdu on Nov 28, 2015 15:16:00 GMT -5
Not trying to sway off topic but add in what is hopefully an improved swihart/Vazquez, and a middle of Xander and Petty and are overall defence may be pretty good. A lot will depend on how 1B goes. Also I wonder how much of an impact good defence and a young promising team has when it comes time to trying to sign top FAs (aka David price) I've wondered if getting Kimbrel early was part of DDo's plan. "Oh, by the way, we've got the best Closer in the game to finish your wins" Not going to seal any deal, but it has to help
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Post by larrycook on Nov 28, 2015 15:33:06 GMT -5
Not trying to sway off topic but add in what is hopefully an improved swihart/Vazquez, and a middle of Xander and Petty and are overall defence may be pretty good. A lot will depend on how 1B goes. Also I wonder how much of an impact good defence and a young promising team has when it comes time to trying to sign top FAs (aka David price) I've wondered if getting Kimbrel early was part of DDo's plan. "Oh, by the way, we've got the best Closer in the game to finish your wins" Not going to seal any deal, but it has to help No doubt in my mind that was part of the equation,
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Post by pokeyreesespieces on Nov 28, 2015 23:34:53 GMT -5
Not trying to sway off topic but add in what is hopefully an improved swihart/Vazquez, and a middle of Xander and Petty and are overall defence may be pretty good. A lot will depend on how 1B goes. Also I wonder how much of an impact good defence and a young promising team has when it comes time to trying to sign top FAs (aka David price) I've wondered if getting Kimbrel early was part of DDo's plan. "Oh, by the way, we've got the best Closer in the game to finish your wins" Not going to seal any deal, but it has to help Absolutely.
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Post by tonyc on Nov 29, 2015 12:05:27 GMT -5
Yes good review Gerry, but I'd have a couple of edits. Lynn was quite good, considered about the best defensive outfielder in the league. At that time Stratomatic was one of the few sources of arm ratings, where anything lower than zero was excellent, and only Clemente, Jesse Barfield and Ellis Valentine got -5. Lynn and Yaz both had -3, and Evans had -4. Lynn and Yaz were known as quite accurate and consistent. They got excellent jumps which made up for lack of pure speed, and the Reds in 75 were shocked at how great Yaz still played the field. Lastly, Rick Miller played all 3 positions as a backup at gold glove level and was even better than Lynn. By strat terms the only outfield 1, all three I can recall ever. So yes todays athletes are faster and more athletic, but for combo of range and throwing arm, Yaz, Lynn, Evans could give this group a good run, but insert Miller and that's your best ever hands down.
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Post by sarasoxer on Nov 29, 2015 12:52:49 GMT -5
The current guys are collectively the best defensive outfield we have had hands down IMO. Prior outfields were known for a combination of offense and defense in an era when defense was less valued and athleticism much less on display. Today's good OFs are acrobats.....not seen across baseball in prior times. Look at Web Gems on any night and realize that we do not have a 'corner' on that type of player either. Prior 'great outfields' were known as such because they were combo guys....very good offense and good defense. Lynn was a graceful CF with a big bat but didn't cover the ground that JBJ does nor have that arm. Yaz could play the wall but I think lost range by the time Lynn & Rice came aboard and never had a real strong arm . Dewey as outstanding. Rice was well...Rice. Piersall and Jensen were outstanding defensively with offensive prowess. DiMaggio from reports was a heckuva defensive CF. Williams was an offensive juggernaut but except for his very early years, would be considered a decided defensive liability by today's standards. Good snapshot. Ted Williams, however, came up in RF and was moved to LF at Fenway. It was probably his remarkable eyesight, but he played the Wall like a master and had a decent arm. I don't remember him being a defensive liability, but as you said, athleticism was less of a Sox criterion back then. IMO even the DiMaggios' remarkable defense might be more average next to today's athletes. Castillo's plucking balls of the Wall actually reminded me of a lot of Ted, but Castillo's arm reminded me more of Dewey. Imagine the Assists he will rack up in LF, and the runners that will not advance out of caution, and the runs he will save. 2015 was his actual rookie year, so his bat and baserunning get a pass as he develops into the weapon we suspect he will become. For defense alone, this OF is worth the ticket price. As the other tools emerge, they may well be a good reason to go to games. The fact that all our guys are young, have range and have good to outstanding arms gives us a reason to watch for defense as you note and when did that ever happen?? If Castillo can prove that he can more consistently hit with authority (had a ton of left side choppers that he beat out) and JBJ can channel whatever he had for 50 games...then we will be talking.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Nov 29, 2015 14:35:46 GMT -5
I mean if your picking from Coyle, Cecchini and Brentz man that is hard. They are all about the same. They have all had there moments. Would have to say Brentz is gone if we sign an OF. Based on the fact that Brentz can't stay healthy. Coyle. Not close. Huge flaws in his offensive game AND can't stay healthy.
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Post by heisenberg on Nov 29, 2015 14:50:01 GMT -5
I mean if your picking from Coyle, Cecchini and Brentz man that is hard. They are all about the same. They have all had there moments. Would have to say Brentz is gone if we sign an OF. Based on the fact that Brentz can't stay healthy. Coyle. Not close. Huge flaws in his offensive game AND can't stay healthy. No joke. Rutledge also should bave been kept over Coyle.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Nov 30, 2015 10:58:21 GMT -5
Coyle. Not close. Huge flaws in his offensive game AND can't stay healthy. No joke. Rutledge also should bave been kept over Coyle. Based on the fact that he wasn't immediately placed on waivers, I wonder if the Sox are trying to shop him, or perhaps hoping to game waivers and try to sneak him through with the thought Rutledge has a better chance than Coyle would. Not saying I agree, but just pointing out that Rutledge wasn't immediately jettisoned.
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,790
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Post by nomar on Nov 30, 2015 11:11:35 GMT -5
I'll take Coyle over Rutledge. He'll never be great on offense, but is a bit faster, has had good years with the glove at 2B, and Rutledge is a a poor defender.
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Post by sox fan in nc on Nov 30, 2015 11:41:36 GMT -5
Not trying to sway off topic but add in what is hopefully an improved swihart/Vazquez, and a middle of Xander and Petty and are overall defence may be pretty good. A lot will depend on how 1B goes. Also I wonder how much of an impact good defence and a young promising team has when it comes time to trying to sign top FAs (aka David price) I wonder what our staff ERA (SP and RP) would have been with that middle defense + Rusney for Hanley in LF for a whole year.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Nov 30, 2015 15:58:10 GMT -5
Coyle. Not close. Huge flaws in his offensive game AND can't stay healthy. No joke. Rutledge also should bave been kept over Coyle. Rutledge cleared waivers and was outrighted to Pawtucket. So, there ya go.
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Post by pokeyreesespieces on Nov 30, 2015 17:39:38 GMT -5
No joke. Rutledge also should bave been kept over Coyle. Rutledge cleared waivers and was outrighted to Pawtucket. So, there ya go. Not really all that shocking
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Post by jimed14 on Nov 30, 2015 17:44:51 GMT -5
There are too many offseason threads. This has nothing to do with JBJ trade rumors anymore, like has happened in a few other threads.
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Post by pokeyreesespieces on Nov 30, 2015 17:48:09 GMT -5
There are too many offseason threads. This has nothing to do with JBJ trade rumors anymore, like has happened in a few other threads. Maybe someone will give you a hall monitor sash and deputize you as a moderator
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Post by jimed14 on Nov 30, 2015 17:56:36 GMT -5
There are too many offseason threads. This has nothing to do with JBJ trade rumors anymore, like has happened in a few other threads. Maybe someone will give you a hall monitor sash and deputize you as a moderator Maybe you'd feel more at home reading the WEEI comments section.
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Post by bigpupp on Nov 30, 2015 18:03:38 GMT -5
I know this site lists Rutledge as having options but I don't see how that can be. He was brought up to the majors in 2012 and spent time in the minors in all of '13-'15. So I think they knew they would put Rutledge through waivers at some point so they picked this time as being the best. Seems like they were right
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Nov 30, 2015 18:28:43 GMT -5
I know this site lists Rutledge as having options but I don't see how that can be. He was brought up to the majors in 2012 and spent time in the minors in all of '13-'15. So I think they knew they would put Rutledge through waivers at some point so they picked this time as being the best. Seems like they were right I don't believe he used one in 2014. You have to spend 20 days in the minors to burn an option. Also, where are you seeing that we list him as having options?
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Post by bigpupp on Nov 30, 2015 19:27:29 GMT -5
I know this site lists Rutledge as having options but I don't see how that can be. He was brought up to the majors in 2012 and spent time in the minors in all of '13-'15. So I think they knew they would put Rutledge through waivers at some point so they picked this time as being the best. Seems like they were right I don't believe he used one in 2014. You have to spend 20 days in the minors to burn an option. Also, where are you seeing that we list him as having options? You might be right about 2014. I just saw him having AAA stats in that year and assumed an option was used. Also, I'm going off memory of him having two options left when he was still listed on the 40 man page after he was acquired. I'm seeing there being an option remaining right now on his player page but I don't think that page is being linked to from anywhere currently (http://www.soxprospects.com/players/rutledge-josh.htm).
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Post by carmenfanzone on Nov 30, 2015 20:53:19 GMT -5
If we are lucky Rusney, JBJ, Mookie will compare favorably to any great Sox OF, including those in my lifetime with Williams and DiMaggio, Piersall and Jensen. If we are not so lucky, the offense may not measure up, but they will provide the best OF defense I have ever seen. I wonder who will be in reserve, as there are some really good veteran options with CBYoung, deAza and local boy Rajai Davis. The current guys are collectively the best defensive outfield we have had hands down IMO. Prior outfields were known for a combination of offense and defense in an era when defense was less valued and athleticism much less on display. Today's good OFs are acrobats.....not seen across baseball in prior times. Look at Web Gems on any night and realize that we do not have a 'corner' on that type of player either. Prior 'great outfields' were known as such because they were combo guys....very good offense and good defense. Lynn was a graceful CF with a big bat but didn't cover the ground that JBJ does nor have that arm. Yaz could play the wall but I think lost range by the time Lynn & Rice came aboard and never had a real strong arm. Dewey as outstanding. Rice was well...Rice. Piersall and Jensen were outstanding defensively with offensive prowess. DiMaggio from reports was a heckuva defensive CF. Williams was an offensive juggernaut but except for his very early years, would be considered a decided defensive liability by today's standards. I remember it a little differently. Lynn came up in 1975 and won 4 Gold Gloves, including in 1975. Yaz was already there and won 7 gold gloves, including one in 1977. Evans was also already there and won 8 gold gloves including one in 1976. I realize that the Gold Gove is not the best way to determine who the best defensive outfielders were or are, but you don't win them by being rotten fielders either. While I admit the current three have a lot of potential, they have not yet won even 1 gold glove between them and there is still doubt about whether 2 of them will hit well enough to play enough to ever win one. Moreover, I remember Yaz and Lynn as having better arms that you do. Yaz in particular I recall as being very accurate. So color me as not yet convinced that Rusney, JBJ, and Mookie are the best defensive outside we have seen hands down. How about we see them play together for a full year before we say anything like that. While I never saw them play, I have heard that the outfield with Tris Speaker was also very good defensively. As for whether JBJ will get traded, DD has said that Rusney, JBJ, and Mookie will start the year as the Red Sox starting outfield. Unless DD is overwhelmed by an offer, I see no reason to believe that will not be the case.
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Post by blizzards39 on Nov 30, 2015 21:01:12 GMT -5
The whole offseason revolves around David Price. If we get him this team is close to done. If not we could still have a whole pile of changes and/or ways we could go, including JBJ being shopped
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Post by sarasoxer on Dec 1, 2015 18:09:39 GMT -5
Carmenfanzone the three OFs we have now are better defensively collectively IMO than Lynn, Evans and Yaz when they played together. Back then somehow offense seemed to figure more into the mix when awarding gold gloves. Even in more modern times how many GGs did Jeter win while his metrics argued otherwise?
It will be a long time before the Sox have an outfield that can play defense AND hit for average/authority like the 70s outfield you note. Yaz by the mid 70s had a fair-good arm but not as good IMO as any of our three. He was not, then in his mid 30s, an outfield gazelle. Evans played LF his first year then moved to right where his very good throwing arm was an advantage. But even he did not have JBJs arm. Betts, JBJ and even Castillo in CF, I think were better than Lynn in terms of speed, arm and range.
Not nostalgic but hopefully not myopic either.
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Post by carmenfanzone on Dec 1, 2015 22:00:17 GMT -5
Carmenfanzone the three OFs we have now are better defensively collectively IMO than Lynn, Evans and Yaz when they played together. Back then somehow offense seemed to figure more into the mix when awarding gold gloves. Even in more modern times how many GGs did Jeter win while his metrics argued otherwise? It will be a long time before the Sox have an outfield that can play defense AND hit for average/authority like the 70s outfield you note. Yaz by the mid 70s had a fair-good arm but not as good IMO as any of our three. He was not, then in his mid 30s, an outfield gazelle. Evans played LF his first year then moved to right where his very good throwing arm was an advantage. But even he did not have JBJs arm. Betts, JBJ and even Castillo in CF, I think were better than Lynn in terms of speed, arm and range. Not nostalgic but hopefully not myopic either. Your original statement to which I was responding was "The current guys are collectively the best defensive outfield we have had hands down IMO. " You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. However, I think it is premature to make that statement when the Red Sox have had a prior outfield consisting of 3 gold glove winners (and as another poster pointed out had a 4th gold glove winner on the bench - Miller) and when the two of the three people you are talking about may not even hit enough to stick in the starting line up. Moreover, to say Evans had a very good throwing arm is an understatement - he had a great throwing arm - maybe the best of his era- and he showed it for a far longer time that Bradley has to date. Moreover, I am not sure Betts arm is as good as you seem to think it is. I certainly think Lynn's arm was as good or better than Betts' arm. Hope you are right, but at the very least your statement is premature and, in my opinion, based primarily on what you hope will happen in the future and not what has already occurred.
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ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,924
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Post by ericmvan on Dec 1, 2015 23:12:44 GMT -5
Total Zone Runs Saved for the entire Sox OF, beginning with the arrival of the great Dewey Evans
1973: 17 1974: 36 1975: 51 (Evans +35 R/150, Lynn +9, Miller +57, Beniquez +32, Rice, Carbo, Yaz all 0) 1976: 28 1977: 13 1978: 10 1979: 25 1980: 3 1981: 14 1982: -10. Miller had lost his range by this point, and at age 30 Dewey was ordinary. They were bad until 1986, when they were +12.
In '75 there were 0 games started by Evans, Miller, and Beniquez. However, they had Beniquez / Lynn / Evans a dozen times, Beniquez / Lynn / Miller three times, and Miller / Lynn / Evans once.
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