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Post by raftsox on Jan 6, 2016 22:01:54 GMT -5
Yeah. I know. He did steroids. He's also no worse than one of the five best pitchers in baseball history and belongs in the HOF. I don't understand all the angst. Baseball is meant to entertain, I'm entertained by good players playing good baseball for a long time. I don't care what they do a long as I'm entertained.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jan 6, 2016 22:42:04 GMT -5
Not everyone feels that way. Thats why Bonds and Clemens are getting 45% of the hall of fame votes. That opinion isn't any less valid because you disagree with it.
I don't think he would've been a top 5 pitcher in baseball history without steroids.
Roy Halladay said "When you use steroids you admit you're not good enough to compete fairly. Our nations past time should have higher standards. No clemens no bonds."
I agree with him, as do a lot of hall of fame voters. Now if you think he was a great Red Sox that could've been a hall of famer anyway, great. But we'll never know what his career would've looked like without steroids. A good portion of the fan base doesn't like him and you can respect his Red Sox accomplishments without retiring his number. Thats the argument.
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Post by Gwell55 on Jan 7, 2016 14:19:35 GMT -5
Not everyone feels that way. Thats why Bonds and Clemens are getting 45% of the hall of fame votes. That opinion isn't any less valid because you disagree with it. I don't think he would've been a top 5 pitcher in baseball history without steroids. Roy Halladay said "When you use steroids you admit you're not good enough to compete fairly. Our nations past time should have higher standards. No clemens no bonds." I agree with him, as do a lot of hall of fame voters. Now if you think he was a great Red Sox that could've been a hall of famer anyway, great. But we'll never know what his career would've looked like without steroids. A good portion of the fan base doesn't like him and you can respect his Red Sox accomplishments without retiring his number. Thats the argument. If roid use is a contributing factor to HOF than Hank Aaron should lose his HR's and also be kick out plus others like Willy Mays and his "Red Juice"concoction of speed and fruit juice, Whitey Ford and his DMSO concoction that takes drugs into the system through the skin (these where acknowledged to by the player and team mates), Mickey Mantle and his hip “vitamin injection” loaded with amphetamines, steroids, bone marrow, and animal cells, and other substances all by his quack doctor, and along with 6 or 7 pitchers per team from the 60's on. Players like House and Damon acknowledged that to be true and others like Dock Ellis also admitted it. it is a widely known fact that this was the case in other sports during the same time so we as fans either have to acknowledge that all these shouldn't be in or shut the heck up about the current ones who have the same of better stats who did nothing that these prior generations didn't do and got in. When are you going to call for all of them to be kicked out with just the proof of the same type of people as Roger and the others?
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jan 7, 2016 14:47:36 GMT -5
Thats for other franchises to decide how to honor those players. We can be smarter now. Right now im talking about a player up for vote in the hall of fame with not just heresay and red flags but we have the testimony of his personal trainer to investigators and Congress. Knowingly lying in court is a felony by the way. So you have to be willing to throw out ALL of that if you think Clemens is innocent.
Clemens was making a mockery of the game towards the end throwing mid to high 90s in his 40s. I went to a lot of those games and personally saw it. I remember sitting there watching, even then wondering "how is he doing this at this age?" The Mitchell report came out shortly afterwards and a whole slew of players have said Clemens was an expert on steroids. Look at his age 42 season for crying out loud.
Its not fair to put his accomplishments up against the Pedros and Roy Halladays. Oh, and to say Pedro or Roy Halladay were "just as likely" abusers defies just about everything we've learned and plain logic. Its actually a pretty offensive thing to say.
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Post by rafael on Jan 7, 2016 17:00:58 GMT -5
I have the question for you people. When you think about #26 and the Red Sox, do you immediately think about Boggs? To me that's what defines if a number should be retired or not. The number should be strongly tied to the player in the minds of the fans and he has to have set a standard so high both in performance and fanbase appreciation that fans don't want to see anyone ever again wearing a jersey with that number. FWIW, I never had the chance to see Boggs play, so I don't really have an opinion whether his number should be retired or not.
Regarding Clemens, I don't have any problem with retiring a player's number or inducting him to the HOF because he used steroids in a time when the league passively approved their use.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jan 7, 2016 17:29:30 GMT -5
Integrity, sportsmanship and character are part of the HoF's criteria. Clemens had literally none of those things.
Honestly 26 reminds me of Brock Holt.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 7, 2016 23:23:11 GMT -5
Integrity, sportsmanship and character are part of the HoF's criteria. Clemens had literally none of those things. Honestly 26 reminds me of Brock Holt. That's because your frame of reference doesn't date back much more than 20 years and in that time Holt looks like Ty Cobb compared to the guys who have worn the number. Boggs wore #26 for 11 years and I really can't think of too many players of note who actually had the number. Earl Wilson is about the only notable player for the Red Sox who wore the number for awhile. Reggie Cleveland had it for awhile, too, but other than Boggs (who the Sox brass expected very little from when he came up), let's just say the number hasn't been reserved for all-stars.
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Post by 29sonski on Jan 8, 2016 9:28:54 GMT -5
When you think about #26 and the Red Sox, do you immediately think about Boggs? Absolutely! And 24 will always remind me of Dwight Evans first -- and then Manny. I guess it was Price's choice to take that number. Imagine he knows it has had a lot of greatness in Fenway. BTW: For all you BoSox numbers fans, here a handy link.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 8, 2016 9:32:06 GMT -5
Integrity, sportsmanship and character are part of the HoF's criteria. Clemens had literally none of those things. lolz
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jan 8, 2016 11:19:03 GMT -5
He was inducted into the Hall of Fame 80 years ago. A lot has changed since then and voters aren't obligated to vote for Clemens because player X got in back in the 30s. Everyone has a right to their opinion and vote.
Now I still think voters should be respectful with their votes and there are ridiculous traditions like sending in blank ballots and refusing to vote for people on their first ballot but you should recognize there is a very strong argument not to vote for Clemens.
As far as 26 goes... Yeah, I remember him best as a Devil Ray (the team he wanted to go into the Hall of Fame with), but Holt just had that number and was in the all star game, thats just a lot more recent than 1992 and players have had that number since.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 8, 2016 13:02:12 GMT -5
He was inducted into the Hall of Fame 80 years ago. A lot has changed since then and voters aren't obligated to vote for Clemens because player X got in back in the 30s. Everyone has a right to their opinion and vote. Now I still think voters should be respectful with their votes and there are ridiculous traditions like sending in blank ballots and refusing to vote for people on their first ballot but you should recognize there is a very strong argument not to vote for Clemens. As far as 26 goes... Yeah, I remember him best as a Devil Ray (the team he wanted to go into the Hall of Fame with), but Holt just had that number and was in the all star game, thats just a lot more recent than 1992 and players have had that number since. If you remember him best as a Ray, where he had a cup of coffee, then you're dealing with a lot of recency bias as to "ownership" of a number. BTW, that's not meant to be a slap or a dig - it's human nature to think of things in your own personal frame of reference - I do it, too. I think most of us do. For instance, #11 might make you think of Clay Buchholz or perhaps #7 makes you think of Drew or Trot, but from a historical standpoint, #11 to me is Frank Malzone, and #7 is Dominic DiMaggio. Maybe #3 to you is David Ross. Historically it would be Jimmie Foxx, although I believe Pete Runnels had good success with that number, too. #26 is definitely Wade Boggs - like I said other than Earl Wilson and Reggie Cleveland, a lot of nondescript players have owned that number. I don't put too much stock in an equipment manager deciding to give Boggs #26 to Wes Chamberlain and deciding to himself that Boggs wasn't worth saving the number for. That's one person's opinion and for all we know personal feelings could have entered into it. Or maybe like you, he didn't have a lot of experience watching Wade Boggs and didn't think it was a big deal or thought he's a Yankee now - screw him. Who really knows?
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Post by 29sonski on Jan 8, 2016 16:09:59 GMT -5
As far as 26 goes ... Holt just had that number and was in the all star game, thats just a lot more recent than 1992 and players have had that number since. Not sure if you saw Holt's Tweet to Boggs: @chickenman3010 congrats man! It's finally where it belongs! Thanks for letting me keep it warm! Brock Holt (@brockstar4lyf) December 21, 2015. He seems OK with switching to 12.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jan 8, 2016 16:26:10 GMT -5
I wasn't suggesting Brock Holt would be upset or thats who it *should be*.
I just don't think its worth retiring Boggs number and you're more than welcome to disagree.
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 8, 2016 16:32:42 GMT -5
I wasn't suggesting Brock Holt would be upset or thats who it *should be*. I just don't think its worth retiring Boggs number and you're more than welcome to disagree. "You're welcome to disagree, I'm just going to reply to every single post made in the entire thread telling you why I do."
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Post by 29sonski on Jan 8, 2016 17:16:43 GMT -5
Considering the Red Sox’ history (length of franchise and quality of players) there are comparatively few retired numbers. I’m ambivalent about retired numbers, but realize it’s a baseball custom to honor all-time greats. Boggs is in that category for the Red Sox. The team released him after the 1992 season. He was 34 and it was the first time he hit under .300 for the year. NYY pounced on him and he won the Silver Slugger the next two seasons. Those same two seasons the Red Sox had Scott Cooper at 3B. Long story short: The Red Sox dropped Boggs after one “off” year (his worst in 18 MLB seasons). The team gave up on him, then begrudged him for signing and playing great for their archrival. I watched Boggs’ entire career. He deserves this honor, and I admire the Red Sox for making the gesture (finally).
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Post by ray88h66 on Jan 8, 2016 17:27:58 GMT -5
This thread is a clear example of why eyes on matter. Us older poster's "may not get it" but we saw it.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 9, 2016 10:17:38 GMT -5
He was inducted into the Hall of Fame 80 years ago. A lot has changed since then and voters aren't obligated to vote for Clemens because player X got in back in the 30s. Everyone has a right to their opinion and vote. Now I still think voters should be respectful with their votes and there are ridiculous traditions like sending in blank ballots and refusing to vote for people on their first ballot but you should recognize there is a very strong argument not to vote for Clemens. joeposnanski.com/the-willie-mays-hall-of-fame/
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Post by proudtoserve on Jan 18, 2016 15:57:05 GMT -5
26 does not belong next to Williams, Yaz, Pedro, Rice and barf if that number is up there before Ortiz who will be one of the best and most respected.....so what if Boggs delivered a lot of singles and doubles, he was a jerk in a bad era.....so many others deserve to be up there we don't need jerks to set example for putting your number next to legends.....just stating my thoughts
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Post by grandsalami on Jan 22, 2016 18:56:21 GMT -5
Scott Lauber @scottlauber 23m23 minutes ago Wade Boggs on being embraced again by #RedSox after so many years: "I feel like Tom Hanks. I've been on an island, and they found me"
Scott Lauber @scottlauber 22m22 minutes ago Boggs plans to talk to #RedSox about role in organization. "I'm back in the fold," he said.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 22, 2016 20:20:21 GMT -5
Scott Lauber @scottlauber 23m23 minutes ago Wade Boggs on being embraced again by #RedSox after so many years: "I feel like Tom Hanks. I've been on an island, and they found me" Scott Lauber @scottlauber 22m22 minutes ago Boggs plans to talk to #RedSox about role in organization. "I'm back in the fold," he said. Eat it, haters.
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Post by ray88h66 on Jan 23, 2016 11:30:21 GMT -5
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 23, 2016 12:11:43 GMT -5
What a jerk face.
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Post by ray88h66 on Jan 23, 2016 12:22:11 GMT -5
We clearly disagree on this. But I love the new avatar. Any chance you can find a picture of the real jimed with yaz and ted?
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 23, 2016 12:36:59 GMT -5
Boggs seems genuinely touched by the Sox retiring his number. You can tell it's important to him. I do wonder if his personality has changed some in the years that have passed. He seems a lot more outgoing and emotional than I remember him being as a player. I remember an interview he and Jim Rice gave a few years back on MLB or something like that and I remember he was very gregarious and Rice kept flashing him looks like Who is THIS crazy guy?! Time does have a way of healing wounds. Boggs, Clemens, Rice, Evans, and Hurst are supposed to be at the casino this weekend on a 1986 panel. I hope that whatever issues there were from back then (and now that I have found an old Nick Cafardo article from 1988 I have a better idea of what some of those issues wound up being) have been smoothed out over the passage of time. People can change for the better and I hope that's what's happened with Boggs over the years. Either way, he was still one helluva ballplayer, easily one of the biggest offensive forces the Sox have ever had (and a good 3b as well), and I'm glad he's back to "being a Red Sox". It does take some years for players and organizations to heal their rifts but I'm glad when that does happen.
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 23, 2016 14:05:21 GMT -5
We clearly disagree on this. But I love the new avatar. Any chance you can find a picture of the real jimed with yaz and ted? BA flashed this one up on Facebook I think. I didn't look for it. I'll keep an eye out for you.
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