SoxProspects News
|
|
|
|
Legal
Forum Ground Rules
The views expressed by the members of this Forum do not necessarily reflect the views of SoxProspects, LLC.
© 2003-2024 SoxProspects, LLC
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home | Search | My Profile | Messages | Members | Help |
Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
John Farrell: To fire or not to fire...
|
Post by Don Caballero on Apr 25, 2016 20:20:08 GMT -5
What he helped bring the franchise? Yeah, consistent last place finishes is something to be happy about....I'm pretty sure we can hire and joe schmoe and finish in last every year. That's the thing, there isn't consistency. In two full years discounting the year where he was sick, he brought a World Series and a last place finish. The results aren't consistent in any way, that's why I'd like to see him having this year to prove if the WS was a fluke. You removed the part of my post that explained why I think it. You can argue that no one knows anything go ahead. Just skip trying to use logic and make Farrell manager for life because he might win the World Series next year. That's a bit reductive of what I meant, but fair enough. Besides, my opinion is that you give him at least this year. If the results aren't there, you fire him afterwards. Because I personally think he's earned at least that for his work in 2013.
|
|
|
Post by redsoxfan2 on Apr 25, 2016 20:22:57 GMT -5
Don, I just have one question. Does Chris Young require any more at bats against RHP, especially against closers at the end of games?
Sure, we can talk about how John Farrell won a WS. We can also talk about how Brandon Workman ended up getting an at bat during that run.
I know that you may want to go to war with Johnny Gomes in October, but logically speaking, Nava should have played over Gomes. Granted, the right call might have meant that you lose that series and now we're waiting 9 year for the next ring, but it was still the wrong call to make that Farrell just so happened to get lucky on.
Perfect analogy of John Farrell during the 2013 World Series run:
|
|
|
Post by Don Caballero on Apr 25, 2016 20:28:07 GMT -5
Don, I just have one question. Does Chris Young require any more at bats against RHP, especially against closers at the end of games? Sure, we can talk about how John Farrell won a WS. We can also talk about how Brandon Workman ended up getting an at bat during that run. I know that you may want to go to war with Johnny Gomes in October, but logically speaking, Nava should have played over Gomes. Granted, the right call might have meant that you lose that series and now we're waiting 9 year for the next ring, but it was still the wrong call to make that Farrell just so happened to get lucky on. Chris Young has 23 PAs this year. Let's not pretend Farrell made him a starter and if you're going to knock him for ocasionally using Young, why won't you praise him for giving way more run to the obviously superior Brock Holt? And you call the Gomes thing luck, I call it Farrell recognizing his hitter gave him a better option against the Cardinals arms. Which he did.
|
|
|
Post by redsoxfan2 on Apr 25, 2016 20:40:03 GMT -5
Don, I just have one question. Does Chris Young require any more at bats against RHP, especially against closers at the end of games? Sure, we can talk about how John Farrell won a WS. We can also talk about how Brandon Workman ended up getting an at bat during that run. I know that you may want to go to war with Johnny Gomes in October, but logically speaking, Nava should have played over Gomes. Granted, the right call might have meant that you lose that series and now we're waiting 9 year for the next ring, but it was still the wrong call to make that Farrell just so happened to get lucky on. Chris Young has 23 PAs this year. Let's not pretend Farrell made him a starter and if you're going to knock him for ocasionally using Young, why won't you praise him for giving way more run to the obviously superior Brock Holt? And you call the Gomes thing luck, I call it Farrell recognizing his hitter gave him a better option against the Cardinals arms. Which he did. Because Holt is the starter? I guess it's credit worthy that he gives the starter more at bats than the 4OF who was brought in to face LHP. I understand the thought process, but you literally had 2 left handed starters coming up so there was no reason to start him, but I can live with that. I don't understand what that 1 extra at bat did for anyone? He had not only Brock Holt on the bench, but Dustin Pedroia as well. This coming from the man who was pinch hitting for Shaw in the 6th inning of games. Explain how Gomes gave the Red Sox a better chance? I understand that he got hits, but that doesn't mean that was the right call. I could have Pokey Reese and Ted Williams (extreme examples) and if I start Pokey there's a 20% chance I get a base hit whereas I'd have a 40% chance with Ted. Going down this road of starting Pokey over Williams, if Pokey gets a hit, does that mean I was right to start him?
|
|
|
Post by Don Caballero on Apr 25, 2016 20:51:07 GMT -5
Explain how Gomes gave the Red Sox a better chance? I understand that he got hits, but that doesn't mean that was the right call. I could have Pokey Reese and Ted Williams (extreme examples) and if I start Pokey there's a 20% chance I get a base hit whereas I'd have a 40% chance with Ted. Going down this road of starting Pokey over Williams, if Pokey gets a hit, does that mean I was right to start him? I remember reading something posted here about how Gomes has a good record against sinkerballers and the Cardinals were full of them. It was something like this. Besides, it worked and it was a huge part of why the Red Sox won the title. And I understand that it's not logic to give any AB against a RHP to Young instead of Holt or anyone else really. I do agree with that. I also think it's overblown because Young hasn't even played enough to do too much damage and I don't condone the decision of not pinch hitting for him in that situation you mentioned. But I don't think it's something that justifies the firing of your manager prior to May.
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Apr 25, 2016 21:10:23 GMT -5
Explain how Gomes gave the Red Sox a better chance? I understand that he got hits, but that doesn't mean that was the right call. I could have Pokey Reese and Ted Williams (extreme examples) and if I start Pokey there's a 20% chance I get a base hit whereas I'd have a 40% chance with Ted. Going down this road of starting Pokey over Williams, if Pokey gets a hit, does that mean I was right to start him? I remember reading something posted here about how Gomes has a good record against sinkerballers and the Cardinals were full of them. It was something like this. Besides, it worked and it was a huge part of why the Red Sox won the title. And I understand that it's not logic to give any AB against a RHP to Young instead of Holt or anyone else really. I do agree with that. I also think it's overblown because Young hasn't even played enough to do too much damage and I don't condone the decision of not pinch hitting for him in that situation you mentioned. But I don't think it's something that justifies the firing of your manager prior to May. Farrell also said that Gomes had won the every day LF job in 2014 while he was OPS'ing under .500 vs. RHP.
|
|
|
Post by Don Caballero on Apr 25, 2016 21:43:32 GMT -5
Farrell also said that Gomes had won the every day LF job in 2014 while he was OPS'ing under .500 vs. RHP. The other options weren't so great and Gomes played less as the season went on. Listen, I don't think every move Farrell does is great or that he should be canonized or something. I simply don't think he should be fired before the end of the season.
|
|
|
Post by jmei on Apr 25, 2016 23:26:31 GMT -5
Farrell also said that Gomes had won the every day LF job in 2014 while he was OPS'ing under .500 vs. RHP. The other options weren't so great and Gomes played less as the season went on. Listen, I don't think every move Farrell does is great or that he should be canonized or something. I simply don't think he should be fired before the end of the season. Is there any set of in-season circumstances that would change your mind? If, say, his players started openly criticizing him?
|
|
|
Post by umassgrad2005 on Apr 26, 2016 0:00:38 GMT -5
What he helped bring the franchise? Yeah, consistent last place finishes is something to be happy about....I'm pretty sure we can hire and joe schmoe and finish in last every year. That's the thing, there isn't consistency. In two full years discounting the year where he was sick, he brought a World Series and a last place finish. The results aren't consistent in any way, that's why I'd like to see him having this year to prove if the WS was a fluke. You removed the part of my post that explained why I think it. You can argue that no one knows anything go ahead. Just skip trying to use logic and make Farrell manager for life because he might win the World Series next year. That's a bit reductive of what I meant, but fair enough. Besides, my opinion is that you give him at least this year. If the results aren't there, you fire him afterwards. Because I personally think he's earned at least that for his work in 2013. Come on two straight last place finishes and he deserves another full year because of a title in 2013? At this point that last 2 years used up all the good will of the 2013 title. Either this team plays to its talent level or Farrell has to go.
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Apr 26, 2016 0:32:58 GMT -5
Farrell also said that Gomes had won the every day LF job in 2014 while he was OPS'ing under .500 vs. RHP. The other options weren't so great and Gomes played less as the season went on. Listen, I don't think every move Farrell does is great or that he should be canonized or something. I simply don't think he should be fired before the end of the season. I will say Farrell did make some gutsy moves during the 2013 post-season. While I remember his folly of letting Workman hit in a tie game and I still don't agree with the Gomes over Nava decision, it was Gomes who had the key hit that turned the Series around. He let Bogaerts take over 3b. Actually he tried him at SS first when Drew couldn't hit at all, but realized that WMB couldn't hit either and that Drew's glove was more important at the time. I think one of the most crucial moves was getting Salty out of the lineup and installing David Ross for the last 3 games (which they won all of them). I think at that point, in crunch time, he trusted Ross' ability to call a game and play defense more than he trusted Salty's and who's to say he was wrong? I think it was the correct call. He utilized Tazawa as a ROOGY which I didn't quite understand but he did a good job utilizing and incorporating Brandon Workman into the bullpen. And he did a good job utilizing Felix Doubront in the Series. So I won't say that Farrell didn't positively impact the Sox in 2013. I'm leaning toward letting him go, but am willing to see where the Sox are around the all-star break (unless they tank much sooner) and re-assess. If I like what I see, a cohesive team that doesn't beat themselves and is playing well, then I'm fine with keeping Farrell. If I see more of 2014 and 2015 then I'd pull the plug.
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Apr 26, 2016 6:22:16 GMT -5
Farrell also said that Gomes had won the every day LF job in 2014 while he was OPS'ing under .500 vs. RHP. The other options weren't so great and Gomes played less as the season went on. Listen, I don't think every move Farrell does is great or that he should be canonized or something. I simply don't think he should be fired before the end of the season. I don't care what the other options were (Nava was a pretty sure bet to hit RHP better if he ever got PAs). He actually said Gomes won the every day LF job while he wasn't hitting RHP at all because he's clueless.
|
|
|
Post by Don Caballero on Apr 26, 2016 11:49:33 GMT -5
I don't care what the other options were (Nava was a pretty sure bet to hit RHP better if he ever got PAs). He actually said Gomes won the every day LF job while he wasn't hitting RHP at all because he's clueless. Nava ended up being the RF and did almost as poorly as Gomes with the bat that year. Is there any set of in-season circumstances that would change your mind? If, say, his players started openly criticizing him? Yes, in fact there are 3 scenarios that would make me change my mind: If he loses his players and they bad mouth him in the press, if they underperform greatly to the point of looking uninterested or if he overworks his starting pitcher for like 150 pitches a game, Dusty Baker style.
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Apr 26, 2016 12:49:44 GMT -5
I don't care what the other options were (Nava was a pretty sure bet to hit RHP better if he ever got PAs). He actually said Gomes won the every day LF job while he wasn't hitting RHP at all because he's clueless. Nava ended up being the RF and did almost as poorly as Gomes with the bat that year. Farrell said it when Nava was on the bench rotting. He ended the season with a 118 wRC+ vs. RHP in 2014. Gomes finished 2014 with a 40 wRC+ vs RHP that year. And this is still so stupid because no one with an ounce of intelligence on this would say that Gomes won the every day job when he was always a platoon player and he was just as bad vs. RHP as ever. Farrell was quoted when someone asked why Nava wasn't getting any playing time. I had it as my signature for awhile. That was the point when I was done with Farrell because someone who has so little grasp of statistics and platoons, has no business being a manager. If you even reply to this without acknowledging how stupid that is, that'll be my last post to you.
|
|
|
Post by telson13 on Apr 26, 2016 12:59:17 GMT -5
That's the thing, there isn't consistency. In two full years discounting the year where he was sick, he brought a World Series and a last place finish. The results aren't consistent in any way, that's why I'd like to see him having this year to prove if the WS was a fluke. That's a bit reductive of what I meant, but fair enough. Besides, my opinion is that you give him at least this year. If the results aren't there, you fire him afterwards. Because I personally think he's earned at least that for his work in 2013. Come on two straight last place finishes and he deserves another full year because of a title in 2013? At this point that last 2 years used up all the good will of the 2013 title. Either this team plays to its talent level or Farrell has to go. I agree...the idea of "getting a pass in perpetuity" doesn't make sense to me. And I realize that that is an exaggeration of your argument, Don, but I think at some point, it makes sense to view the minority sample as the outlier. I'm still not 100%, but based on Lovullo's stint and the current team's underperformance relative to that (despite huge additions), and Farrell's continued bizarre game management (and apparent inability to absorb and learn from mistakes), I just can't support the guy any more. The idea of waiting until after the season means a willingness to sacrifice the season to simply confirm the suspicion that Farrell should be replaced. Yuck.
|
|
|
Post by Don Caballero on Apr 26, 2016 13:19:30 GMT -5
If you even reply to this without acknowledging how stupid that is, that'll be my last post to you. No no, I agree that that is pretty stupid and like I said before, I don't defend or condone a lot of decisions Farrell has made. My point is that it ended up being sort of a non issue because Nava ended up playing much more than Gomes anyway. It looks awful in a vacuum, but there were way bigger issues with that roster that in my opinion influenced more on the terrible outcome of that season. Just to be clear, I do not think these are good moves. I just think they are more annoying than counterproductive. I agree...the idea of "getting a pass in perpetuity" doesn't make sense to me. And I realize that that is an exaggeration of your argument, Don, but I think at some point, it makes sense to view the minority sample as the outlier. I'm still not 100%, but based on Lovullo's stint and the current team's underperformance relative to that (despite huge additions), and Farrell's continued bizarre game management (and apparent inability to absorb and learn from mistakes), I just can't support the guy any more. The idea of waiting until after the season means a willingness to sacrifice the season to simply confirm the suspicion that Farrell should be replaced. Yuck. That's a fair way of viewing the issue and I do respect everyone who thinks like this, Farrell's stint has been marked by a lot of questionable moves so I get that. I also realize my opinion is pretty much the minority around here, but I honestly don't think Farrell has done enough to be fired mid-season only a few years removed from having so much success in the role.
|
|
|
Post by iakovos11 on Apr 26, 2016 17:28:00 GMT -5
I think Keith Couch would make an excellent Farrell replacement, Don.
|
|
|
Post by Don Caballero on Apr 26, 2016 18:11:02 GMT -5
I think Keith Couch would make an excellent Farrell replacement, Don. Only if it's in a player/coach kind of arrangement like Bill Russell.
|
|
|
Post by iakovos11 on Apr 26, 2016 21:08:27 GMT -5
I think Keith Couch would make an excellent Farrell replacement, Don. Only if it's in a player/coach kind of arrangement like Bill Russell. I thought that was obvious. I was thinking Frank Robinson, though. We cannot afford to give up his future value as a middle reliever.
|
|
|
Post by Don Caballero on Apr 26, 2016 21:33:54 GMT -5
Heck, with how the Celtics are playing right now I'm almost rooting for Couch to change sports and save that franchise (:
|
|
TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
|
Post by TearsIn04 on Apr 26, 2016 21:36:29 GMT -5
I'm not a JF apologist by any stretch, but I think of the 2014 and 2015 crap shows as so much more the fault of the FO for the poor roster construction and succession of botched moves. I mean, the opening day lineup in '14 included Grady Sizemore, AJ Pierzynski, Will Middlebrooks and a not-yet-ready for full-time duty Xander.
Then came the Lester and Lackey trades. They cleaned out their top two starters in an afternoon. They got a disastrous return on Lackey and a low-OBP guy who didn't want to play RF and was awful in LF for Lester. They then paid big money for Castillo, Panda and Hanley, none of whom have been worth squat.
None of that is on the manager.
|
|
|
Post by okin15 on Apr 26, 2016 21:54:26 GMT -5
After Farrell refused to put in Ortiz this evening, I've gone full 100% and I'm ready to kick him out. I mean, it's the man's last game in that stadium. Put him IN!!!
|
|
|
Post by sibbysisti on Apr 26, 2016 22:43:04 GMT -5
After Farrell refused to put in Ortiz this evening, I've gone full 100% and I'm ready to kick him out. I mean, it's the man's last game in that stadium. Put him IN!!! It will be everybody's last game in that stadium. They're selling it to Georgia State U..
|
|
|
Post by redsoxfan2 on Apr 27, 2016 6:44:15 GMT -5
I'm not a JF apologist by any stretch, but I think of the 2014 and 2015 crap shows as so much more the fault of the FO for the poor roster construction and succession of botched moves. I mean, the opening day lineup in '14 included Grady Sizemore, AJ Pierzynski, Will Middlebrooks and a not-yet-ready for full-time duty Xander. Then came the Lester and Lackey trades. They cleaned out their top two starters in an afternoon. They got a disastrous return on Lackey and a low-OBP guy who didn't want to play RF and was awful in LF for Lester. They then paid big money for Castillo, Panda and Hanley, none of whom have been worth squat. None of that is on the manager. AJ hit .300/.339/.430 in 2015 Cespedes is looking like an MVP. The Lester and Lackey deals came only after the wheels fell off. Both pitchers are still looking like Cy Young candidates. Hanley has been solid this year. Not being able to motivate a player partly falls on the manager. Not saying he should have won 90 games, but he should have done better than last.
|
|
|
Post by Guidas on Apr 27, 2016 11:45:53 GMT -5
Here's how I've come to frame it in my head: John Farrell is the Nickleback of MLB Managers.
|
|
|
Post by sox fan in nc on Apr 27, 2016 13:48:22 GMT -5
After Farrell refused to put in Ortiz this evening, I've gone full 100% and I'm ready to kick him out. I mean, it's the man's last game in that stadium. Put him IN!!! I thought about this too...Then I thought what if he brought him in & one of a thousand injuries happen, Pulled hammy, HBP on wrist, foul tip on foot, ect....then I thought otherwise, keep him on the bench till today.
|
|
|