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John Farrell: To fire or not to fire...
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Post by GyIantosca on Aug 14, 2016 8:40:45 GMT -5
My opinion is they should not go outside , internal because again we are transitioning to a young team even younger . DD interview Tory and Butterfield maybe Chili. Internal. I don't think it's a good idea to get rid of Wilis at pitching coach because Bannister has his hands full . He is in charge of all of the Sox pitchers I think.
I bet you one day Gedman will be a manager in baseball maybe not here but he is moving fast in the system. Just my opinion.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 14, 2016 9:41:09 GMT -5
You think Dombrowski is going to let Farrell go and give the job to his side kick in Lovullo? Give me a break. If It did happen Dombrowski is just as much to blame as the next guy. We all talk how terrible a manager Farrell is but yet Lovullo is right there with him during what we the fans categorize as bad in game decisions either with relievers or offensive players. Farrell is gone. The ? Is who is on the short list. Jim Leyland Ron Gardenhire Andy Haines Todd Greene Alex Cora ? This is a good point, and seemingly overlooked by most who argue in favor of firing Farrell and hiring Lovullo. The biggest knock on Farrell seems to be his in-game decision-making, and isn't that what a bench coach is there to help with? (Of course, for all we know, perhaps Farrell doesn't seek Lovullo's input in this way, or perhaps he does and ignores it.) As a practical matter, the opportunity to make a change may already have been missed, and I don't see anything happening until after the season. It's not being overlooked. The same thing existed last year before Lovullo took over and made completely different decisions that usually made a lot more sense and the players responded well to him. There is a reason they paid him a lot more than most bench coaches to stick around. It's a matter of when he becomes the manager, not if.
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Post by ryan24 on Aug 14, 2016 12:23:59 GMT -5
This is a good point, and seemingly overlooked by most who argue in favor of firing Farrell and hiring Lovullo. The biggest knock on Farrell seems to be his in-game decision-making, and isn't that what a bench coach is there to help with? (Of course, for all we know, perhaps Farrell doesn't seek Lovullo's input in this way, or perhaps he does and ignores it.) As a practical matter, the opportunity to make a change may already have been missed, and I don't see anything happening until after the season. It's not being overlooked. The same thing existed last year before Lovullo took over and made completely different decisions that usually made a lot more sense and the players responded well to him. There is a reason they paid him a lot more than most bench coaches to stick around. It's a matter of when he becomes the manager, not if. Both of you make good points. Torry was paid good money to be the insurance policy for the team if Farrell regressed with his cancer situation. Sooner or later it will come back to replacing Farrell with a DD guy. Butterfield, chilli, Tory and willis were all there before DD. Does he replace any of them with HIS guys. You certainly have to think that dd can not be happy with the pitching results this year. Does that mean he leaves Farrell and makes changes to the staff? Certainly opens a big area for discussion. Iam not sure now about chilli as to when he was hired. I will look this up.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 14, 2016 12:39:23 GMT -5
It's not being overlooked. The same thing existed last year before Lovullo took over and made completely different decisions that usually made a lot more sense and the players responded well to him. There is a reason they paid him a lot more than most bench coaches to stick around. It's a matter of when he becomes the manager, not if. Both of you make good points. Torry was paid good money to be the insurance policy for the team if Farrell regressed with his cancer situation. Sooner or later it will come back to replacing Farrell with a DD guy. Butterfield, chilli, Tory and willis were all there before DD. Does he replace any of them with HIS guys. You certainly have to think that dd can not be happy with the pitching results this year. Does that mean he leaves Farrell and makes changes to the staff? Certainly opens a big area for discussion. Iam not sure now about chilli as to when he was hired. I will look this up. Well DDo signed Lovullo to stay last winter as insurance. He might already be his guy. And there's no way in hell they go to anyone else other than him in the middle of the season.
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Post by ryan24 on Aug 14, 2016 12:46:51 GMT -5
Both of you make good points. Torry was paid good money to be the insurance policy for the team if Farrell regressed with his cancer situation. Sooner or later it will come back to replacing Farrell with a DD guy. Butterfield, chilli, Tory and willis were all there before DD. Does he replace any of them with HIS guys. You certainly have to think that dd can not be happy with the pitching results this year. Does that mean he leaves Farrell and makes changes to the staff? Certainly opens a big area for discussion. Iam not sure now about chilli as to when he was hired. I will look this up. Well DDo signed Lovullo to stay last winter as insurance. He might already be his guy. And there's no way in hell they go to anyone else other than him in the middle of the season. Davis hired on cherrington shift. If the sox make the change this season you are totally right. Unless the sox win the series, which I hope they do, I would think that DD will make some changes with his staffing. What they are I have not a clue. I tend to think you are right about lovullo.
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Post by chud on Aug 14, 2016 15:20:41 GMT -5
If the season ended today (which of course it doesn't) the Sox would be in the playoffs. Unless Farrell's plan includes having Betts spend his off days basking in the rivers of Rio to recoup, I have a very hard time seeing the Sox firing him in season. IMO they would have to have an epic collapse and fall totally out of contention, which at this point of the season would place them close to the end of the baseball year anyway...So, any change i think comes in the off season...
That said, I think Farrell's job is saved if they make the playoffs and he's gone if they don't. Is Farrell perfect, by no means...Is he a genius tactician, no...does he manage the bullpen extremely well, I think he's about average from my untrained eye...But from everything I've read, his strength is as a communicator and in having the respect of the troops (two very important traits for a manager)...In fact, the only thing as important/more important is ability to manage your pitching staff IMO, as managers in baseball outside of that don't seem to play a huge role in wins/losses from what i've read...So, I guess my point is we could probably do a lot worse (Bobby Valentine rings a bell, man did i hate that hire...but i digress). Goes to my point that if DD truly travels w/ the team on all road trips, no one would be in a better position to evaluate Farrell's strengths as they compare to other managers...And if they make the playoffs and he's fired, he must be a huge disaster behind the scenes...My guess is, Sox make the playoffs and Farrell stays.
If for some reason he is fired, I would imagine there's an extensive managerial search (wonder if Leyland is at all interested)...and if that search leads to TL being the best guy, then i'd imagine he'd be the hire...But don't think he's a slam dunk at all nor should he be...If they need to replace Farrell, they need to do an exhaustive search as this will be the guy who's tied to DD for the long term and in essence, will be part of his legacy.
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Post by ryan24 on Aug 14, 2016 15:36:32 GMT -5
If the season ended today (which of course it doesn't) the Sox would be in the playoffs. Unless Farrell's plan includes having Betts spend his off days basking in the rivers of Rio to recoup, I have a very hard time seeing the Sox firing him in season. IMO they would have to have an epic collapse and fall totally out of contention, which at this point of the season would place them close to the end of the baseball year anyway...So, any change i think comes in the off season... That said, I think Farrell's job is saved if they make the playoffs and he's gone if they don't. Is Farrell perfect, by no means...Is he a genius tactician, no...does he manage the bullpen extremely well, I think he's about average from my untrained eye...But from everything I've read, his strength is as a communicator and in having the respect of the troops (two very important traits for a manager)...In fact, the only thing as important/more important is ability to manage your pitching staff IMO, as managers in baseball outside of that don't seem to play a huge role in wins/losses from what i've read...So, I guess my point is we could probably do a lot worse (Bobby Valentine rings a bell, man did i hate that hire...but i digress). Goes to my point that if DD truly travels w/ the team on all road trips, no one would be in a better position to evaluate Farrell's strengths as they compare to other managers...And if they make the playoffs and he's fired, he must be a huge disaster behind the scenes...My guess is, Sox make the playoffs and Farrell stays. If for some reason he is fired, I would imagine there's an extensive managerial search (wonder if Leyland is at all interested)...and if that search leads to TL being the best guy, then i'd imagine he'd be the hire...But don't think he's a slam dunk at all nor should he be...If they need to replace Farrell, they need to do an exhaustive search as this will be the guy who's tied to DD for the long term and in essence, will be part of his legacy. Another country heard from. Most of what I have heard he is a negative communicator. Well whatever. If they are out of the playoffs agree he is out at season end. If he is in the playoffs he probably stays. But I think they make changes to coaching staff somewhere in the pitching area.
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Post by jmei on Aug 15, 2016 0:05:20 GMT -5
This is not exactly a Farrell point, but I'm not sure where else it should go, and it's tangentially related.
With the call up of Benintendi, the emergence of Leon, and the acquisition of Pomeranz, Dombrowki has built a team that looks like a World Series contender on paper. All of its starting position players and starting pitchers look like above-average players (you could maybe quibble with Ramirez, Leon, Shaw, Rodriguez, or Pomeranz, but only so far-- you can't really call any of them a weakness with a straight face), with a few legitimate stars mixed in. The bullpen is a little dodgier, but it has talent and depth and is at worst merely below-average. Every rest-of-season projection system has this roster as one of the best in the AL, and they're close enough that they should win a Wild Card spot and at least make a strong play for the division. They've punched below their weight so far due to a rotating cast of failure at the back of their rotation and general sequencing bad luck, but if they can get into the dance, they're absolutely a threat to win it all.
Which is to say: don't **** it up, John.
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Post by ryan24 on Aug 15, 2016 7:14:40 GMT -5
Most of the responses have stated that Farrell has mismanaged many things over the course of the season. It seems to me that an overlooked area for a huge mistake made by john and dave was the handling of leftfield. Playing holt every day tired him out and took away an area of great strength for the team with a fresh holt being able to give xb, jbj ,mookie, and shaw regular rest. Young has been hurt for a long time. Maybe be in july when they looked at drew they also should have been looking at an outfielder. An example might have been Josh R. Seems like the mishandling of left has caused multi problems. This appears to have added to JF mismanagement skills.
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Post by soxjim on Aug 15, 2016 7:23:04 GMT -5
Most of the responses have stated that Farrell has mismanaged many things over the course of the season. It seems to me that an overlooked area for a huge mistake made by john and dave was the handling of leftfield. Playing holt every day tired him out and took away an area of great strength for the team with a fresh holt being able to give xb, jbj ,mookie, and shaw regular rest. Young has been hurt for a long time. Maybe be in july when they looked at drew they also should have been looking at an outfielder. An example might have been Josh R. Seems like the mishandling of left has caused multi problems. This appears to have added to JF mismanagement skills. I don't think Holt wore down. I just think he had a bad year. And it didn't help he played with a concussion for a while dragging down his statistical data.
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Post by dnfl333 on Aug 16, 2016 9:05:42 GMT -5
Perfect example why Farrell is not the answer moving forward is yesterday vs Indians. 2 and 3rd, zero out, in the late innings of a 1 run game, in the middle of a pennant race, he let's Doc Holaday hit when arguably your best hitter in the past month is at your disposal in Leon.
Zero excuse for not making that move. Zero
Any coincidence that after the Seattle series Benintendi is your everyday left fielder? I bet you Dombrowski made a call to the Staff and set the ground rules of his usage and playing time going forward.
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Post by iakovos11 on Aug 16, 2016 15:02:34 GMT -5
Perfect example why Farrell is not the answer moving forward is yesterday vs Indians. 2 and 3rd, zero out, in the late innings of a 1 run game, in the middle of a pennant race, he let's Doc Holaday hit when arguably your best hitter in the past month is at your disposal in Leon. Zero excuse for not making that move. Zero Any coincidence that after the Seattle series Benintendi is your everyday left fielder? I bet you Dombrowski made a call to the Staff and set the ground rules of his usage and playing time going forward. Really, how many times do you need to mention this and in how many different threads? Are you trolling, trying to get someone to bite? Make your point and move on. If no one engages, I guess no one cared that much.
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Post by bnich on Aug 16, 2016 20:27:05 GMT -5
More brilliance from Farrell. Please do away with this moron.
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Post by jmei on Aug 16, 2016 20:34:05 GMT -5
This is not the gameday thread, and there is a higher threshold for quality here. If you want to vent, please do so in the gameday thread.
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Post by dnfl333 on Aug 16, 2016 21:42:09 GMT -5
Perfect example why Farrell is not the answer moving forward is yesterday vs Indians. 2 and 3rd, zero out, in the late innings of a 1 run game, in the middle of a pennant race, he let's Doc Holaday hit when arguably your best hitter in the past month is at your disposal in Leon. Zero excuse for not making that move. Zero Any coincidence that after the Seattle series Benintendi is your everyday left fielder? I bet you Dombrowski made a call to the Staff and set the ground rules of his usage and playing time going forward. Really, how many times do you need to mention this and in how many different threads? Are you trolling, trying to get someone to bite? Make your point and move on. If no one engages, I guess no one cared that much. I made the point and I'll make it 20 more times.. Bite what? The post is a fact and the fact Is undisputed!
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Post by iakovos11 on Aug 17, 2016 7:14:51 GMT -5
You have a funny concept of fact.
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ianrs
Veteran
Posts: 2,418
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Post by ianrs on Aug 18, 2016 17:51:39 GMT -5
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Aug 18, 2016 20:01:36 GMT -5
Can't even get the dreaded vote of confidence...
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Post by rookie13 on Aug 18, 2016 21:46:33 GMT -5
I do not think JF is a good manger, but I absolutely do not see the sense in firing him at this point in the season. This team still has a wild card spot and is only 1 1/2 games back in the division. Does anyone actually believe a managerial change 3/4 into the season will make that much of a difference towards our post season chances?
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Post by soxfan06 on Aug 18, 2016 22:19:55 GMT -5
I do not think JF is a good manger, but I absolutely do not see the sense in firing him at this point in the season. This team still has a wild card spot and is only 1 1/2 games back in the division. Does anyone actually believe a managerial change 3/4 into the season will make that much of a difference towards our post season chances? Considering he is the only reason we are 1.5 games back in the division, rather than 5 games up? Absolutely. Farrell to Lovullo at this point could be the difference between a wild card play in game and winning the division. Not because Lovullo's skills will allow us to win more, but because firing Farrell would probably save us 3 wins between here and October 1st.
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Post by wskeleton76 on Aug 18, 2016 22:24:50 GMT -5
I do not think JF is a good manger, but I absolutely do not see the sense in firing him at this point in the season. This team still has a wild card spot and is only 1 1/2 games back in the division. Does anyone actually believe a managerial change 3/4 into the season will make that much of a difference towards our post season chances? I do. Because JF is really killing this team.
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Post by soxfansince67 on Aug 18, 2016 22:40:53 GMT -5
His not batting Leon for Holaday the other day, his use of Tazawa today - how many losses this year can be pinned on him? 5? 8? 10? More? Why keep someone managing that is simply not a good manager? Makes no sense...
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ericmvan
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Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,931
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Post by ericmvan on Aug 18, 2016 22:48:50 GMT -5
I do not think JF is a good manger, but I absolutely do not see the sense in firing him at this point in the season. This team still has a wild card spot and is only 1 1/2 games back in the division. Does anyone actually believe a managerial change 3/4 into the season will make that much of a difference towards our post season chances? If they'd fired Grady Little on August 19, 2003, they would have gone to the WS that year. At least. This team is probably too good for JF to cost them a playoff spot. But a good manager would have them cruising to a division title, clinching with a week left, thus setting up the post-season rotation, and then he'd manage smartly throughout the playoffs. Versus having to play a WC game ... and then managing like this.
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Post by rookie13 on Aug 18, 2016 22:55:29 GMT -5
I do not think JF is a good manger, but I absolutely do not see the sense in firing him at this point in the season. This team still has a wild card spot and is only 1 1/2 games back in the division. Does anyone actually believe a managerial change 3/4 into the season will make that much of a difference towards our post season chances? Considering he is the only reason we are 1.5 games back in the division, rather than 5 games up? Absolutely. Farrell to Lovullo at this point could be the difference between a wild card play in game and winning the division. Not because Lovullo's skills will allow us to win more, but because firing Farrell would probably save us 3 wins between here and October 1st. I absolutely agree that he is not the right man to manage this team. I suppose I just don't understand the logic of a managerial change in August. The only person who could possibly take over this late is Lovullo. And at this point I have to assume JF totally ignores Lovullo's input. There's no way he would make the same in game choices as Farrell does. I think you're right but I can't recall a time when a team fired their manager this late in the season and was still competitive in the playoffs. I'm not saying it wouldn't help, I just wish this would have happened months ago. Or even before the season began. Edit: just to say the other two posts are correct as well. This team would be better off without him managing. I wish it would have happened much earlier and at this point I wonder how much a managerial change would affect the team
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Post by braziliansox on Aug 18, 2016 23:27:40 GMT -5
I do not think JF is a good manger, but I absolutely do not see the sense in firing him at this point in the season. This team still has a wild card spot and is only 1 1/2 games back in the division. Does anyone actually believe a managerial change 3/4 into the season will make that much of a difference towards our post season chances? You know what scares me even more than missing the playoffs? Winning it all in spite of Farrell again and be stuck with him for at least the next handful of years. I'm not saying that I am rooting against the team or anything btw, but it would be nice to not have that nightmare of a thought in the back of my mind after every win.
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