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John Farrell: To fire or not to fire...
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Post by barney27 on Aug 12, 2016 16:08:58 GMT -5
I'd rather hire a pitching coach who has proved himself in an offensive environment, not a place like Pittsburgh, San Fran, or Oakland. So... you want to hire John Farrell? I gave 3 examples of people who have been successful as pitching coaches. You expert guys pick whoever you want, they were examples. The main point is we need a different pitching guru to run the organization. I have asked several times about info on willis and nobody has come forward. It seems over the last 3 years the pitching in general has gone sideways or regressed. There is several young pitchers who have come to the top of the organization and fall by the wayside once they get to the bigs. We also need a manager that inspires the players to play with spirit for the sox. so Farrell whether you move him to pitching coach of greenville can not manage a big league team . Maybe he learns but right now he has had the last 3 years to hone his skills.
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Post by telson13 on Aug 12, 2016 16:50:20 GMT -5
So... you want to hire John Farrell? I gave 3 examples of people who have been successful as pitching coaches. You expert guys pick whoever you want, they were examples. The main point is we need a different pitching guru to run the organization. I have asked several times about info on willis and nobody has come forward. It seems over the last 3 years the pitching in general has gone sideways or regressed. There is several young pitchers who have come to the top of the organization and fall by the wayside once they get to the bigs. We also need a manager that inspires the players to play with spirit for the sox. so Farrell whether you move him to pitching coach of greenville can not manage a big league team . Maybe he learns but right now he has had the last 3 years to hone his skills. Willis was hired last year after Juan Nieves was let go.
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Post by barney27 on Aug 12, 2016 16:54:08 GMT -5
I gave 3 examples of people who have been successful as pitching coaches. You expert guys pick whoever you want, they were examples. The main point is we need a different pitching guru to run the organization. I have asked several times about info on willis and nobody has come forward. It seems over the last 3 years the pitching in general has gone sideways or regressed. There is several young pitchers who have come to the top of the organization and fall by the wayside once they get to the bigs. We also need a manager that inspires the players to play with spirit for the sox. so Farrell whether you move him to pitching coach of greenville can not manage a big league team . Maybe he learns but right now he has had the last 3 years to hone his skills. Willis was hired last year after Juan Nieves was let go. I know that. I am talking about where has he been and what kind of success has he had where he has been. What's his history? Who has he developed or shown that he has helped become a quality big league pitcher.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 12, 2016 17:11:07 GMT -5
Willis was hired last year after Juan Nieves was let go. I know that. I am talking about where has he been and what kind of success has he had where he has been. What's his history? Who has he developed or shown that he has helped become a quality big league pitcher. There are these things called internet search engines.
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Post by amfox1 on Aug 12, 2016 17:54:08 GMT -5
You mean, he has to do actual research? On his own?
Perhaps we like barney27 the way he is now - shoot first, aim later
(hint: it took me about 30 seconds to look up Willis' bio and see he had worked with Cliff Lee, C.C. Sabathia and Felix Hernandez, but good luck with that "he's worked with no quality big league pitchers" argument)
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Post by barney27 on Aug 12, 2016 18:07:45 GMT -5
You mean, he has to do actual research? On his own? Perhaps we like barney27 the way he is now - shoot first, aim later (hint: it took me about 30 seconds to look up Willis' bio and see he had worked with Cliff Lee, C.C. Sabathia and Felix Hernandez, but good luck with that "he's worked with no quality big league pitchers" argument) Thank you gentlemen. You guys overload us with all kinds of stats and info. from you EXPERTS with sabermetrics and info from lots of web sites I did not know existed that you gentlemen have enjoyed and worked hard at finding. Thought that you had something you would like to share and discuss. I had no argument with being a no quality big league pitcher's argument. My apologies for bothering you experts and know it alls. Thought I was just having a fun conversation with some guys who just enjoy baseball and the sox.
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Post by jmei on Aug 12, 2016 18:14:56 GMT -5
"I just want the ability to make **** up and have no one call me out for it. Is that too much to ask?"
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Post by barney27 on Aug 12, 2016 18:21:01 GMT -5
"I just want the ability to make **** up and have no one call me out for it. Is that too much to ask?" Thanks next time somebody asks me for money to keep the site going I will laugh and wait for you bull**** artists to be obnoxious to someone who was just trying to enjoy talking baseball not act like 5 yr olds.
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Post by telson13 on Aug 12, 2016 18:56:32 GMT -5
"I just want the ability to make **** up and have no one call me out for it. Is that too much to ask?" Thanks next time somebody asks me for money to keep the site going I will laugh and wait for you bull**** artists to be obnoxious to someone who was just trying to enjoy talking baseball not act like 5 yr olds. You got called out for failing to investigate on your own, and complaining about the level of statistical discussion. If you stop for a second, you might see the irony in your own response, talking about people being obnoxious, and acting like 5-yr olds. You've complained before about the statistics people cite, and you've made multiple denigrating references to "experts," despite nobody here claiming expertise. But I will say that a certain degree of knowledge of advanced statistics, and a willingness to do your own research (or at least ask others what resources might be helpful) will go a long way to you enjoying this site, and people welcoming your input. If you don't want to research things for yourself, or demonstrate an interest in backing up your opinions with insightful analysis based on solid reasoning and/or hard data, then it's just not for you. If you prefer casual baseball banter and would rather keep it on a surface level, Boston.com or WEEI comments sections might be better options. If you're going to comment, people are going to demand a little more of you than requesting easily, readily-available information, or unsubstantiated opinion. And if you throw a tantrum like this comment, people will just stop paying attention to you. I'm happy to have someone new contribute; I recommend that you play around in the fangraphs glossary and get familiar with FIP, SIERA, maybe look up some players and learn about pitch values, check out BrooksBaseball, etc. You don't have to be an "expert," but right now you're coming across as uninformed (and disinterested in being informed), and it's affecting the way people respond to you. Have some fun with it...if Eric posts something on pitch values that you aren't familiar with, say, ask him where it comes from and what it means, instead of throwing shade at the "experts" and then storming out. Trust me, a lot of posters on here love good insight, and respect thoughtful analysis.
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Post by telson13 on Aug 12, 2016 19:12:31 GMT -5
"I just want the ability to make **** up and have no one call me out for it. Is that too much to ask?" Thanks next time somebody asks me for money to keep the site going I will laugh and wait for you bull**** artists to be obnoxious to someone who was just trying to enjoy talking baseball not act like 5 yr olds. Definitely check out fangraphs.com. You can put any player's name in the search function, and it will give you their page (and a list of articles, which are often great). Or you can just check out random articles on the home page. That will give you an idea of terminology, and you can use the glossary to learn some advanced sabermetrics. It's easier than it seems, and it will make this site a lot more enjoyable, because you'll know a lot more about the terms people are using. Fangraphs also will have some cool articles where you can see gifs of pitchers' pitches, or hitters' swings, and comparisons (like how a hitter's swing has changed over time). There are also data on pitch usage, type, velocity, etc, and spray charts for hitters, batted ball info (grounders, line drives, etc). BrooksBaseball.net has a ton of data, too. It just takes a little curiosity and initiative. If you have a question, like yours about Willis, just google it: "Carl Wllis pitching coach history" or something like that. You'd be surprised how easy it is to look that stuff up. Then you're asking "Willis worked with Cliff Lee and Felix Hernandez and CC Sabathia, so why isn't he having the same success with Boston pitching?" instead of "who is this guy?" I guarantee you'll get much more interesting answers to the first question. And, develop a thick skin. People on this site will challenge you, repeatedly. That's just the nature of the site...it's not (usually) personal.
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Post by patford on Aug 12, 2016 23:00:26 GMT -5
None of the above. I think Farrell should never have been brought back. I have no real issue with his game decisions. I just think he transmits a heavy negative vibe which the players pick-up. To his credit his "We're going to blow it" vibe is not nearly as strong as the negative vibe 90% of Sox fans radiate, so we can be thankful for that.
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brisox
Rookie
SoxProspects Veteran
Posts: 87
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Post by brisox on Aug 13, 2016 6:49:23 GMT -5
Farrel s getting fired. FO wants TL . Just waiting for right time
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Post by ryan24 on Aug 13, 2016 7:56:41 GMT -5
Does willis go too
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 13, 2016 8:32:07 GMT -5
Is so, does Brian Bannister become the pitching coach?
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ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,933
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Post by ericmvan on Aug 13, 2016 9:35:05 GMT -5
The one other thing you can hope for, and it's pretty much the opposite, is that the team starts playing so well that they make JF's shortcomings moot. Like it was in May. They have the talent, unquestionably.
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Post by soxjim on Aug 13, 2016 15:21:12 GMT -5
None of the above. I think Farrell should never have been brought back. I have no real issue with his game decisions. I just think he transmits a heavy negative vibe which the players pick-up. To his credit his "We're going to blow it" vibe is not nearly as strong as the negative vibe 90% of Sox fans radiate, so we can be thankful for that. If you think there was no big deal with his game decisions, then unfortunately for much of your life you are going to have the vibe that so many Sox fans are very, very negative. For me, I wouldn't agree with how you look at the game/ think what moves need to be made. Therefore most times I post, you and I have a completely different view as to how the game should be managed because I think Farrell has been awful. Thus, when you're happy I'll be miserable, unless of course we win a lot.
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Post by GyIantosca on Aug 13, 2016 15:37:20 GMT -5
I have gone back and forth on this and my conclusion is the close games. This is my evaluation of him and he fails. Maybe Farrell won a title with the Sox team with more veterans but this team going forward is young and getting younger. Successful teams need to learn how to win those close games. This team is so talented . Maybe he needs to grow with the team.
I feel this team responds with Torry better it feels that way to me. I just hate the way this team plays with close games. I mean the bullpen is killing this team. I would think Farrell would of gotten a handle on it by now.
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Post by ryan24 on Aug 13, 2016 17:44:23 GMT -5
I have gone back and forth on this and my conclusion is the close games. This is my evaluation of him and he fails. Maybe Farrell won a title with the Sox team with more veterans but this team going forward is young and getting younger. Successful teams need to learn how to win those close games. This team is so talented . Maybe he needs to grow with the team. I feel this team responds with Torry better it feels that way to me. I just hate the way this team plays with close games. I mean the bullpen is killing this team. I would think Farrell would of gotten a handle on it by now. I am not sure what the measure is that you use from fangraphs and such to back up whatever opinion you have on whether Farrell stays or goes. Not interested in getting into another argument that the one guy above got into about not being interested in metrics etc. Useful tool.It does seem that after watching baseball for 40 years the numbers in the standings do not match the talent level of the team. Looking at some of the metrics and info submitted above, Farrell is not getting the job done. I guess it comes down to whether the front office thinks he is doing the job they want. I am not sure there is a metric or a specific data piece that tells you how Farrell relates to the players and whether they will play their ass for him and they get the desired results. From what has been said so far it appears that he has problems relating and that he should go.
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Post by barney27 on Aug 13, 2016 18:06:50 GMT -5
"I just want the ability to make **** up and have no one call me out for it. Is that too much to ask?" Thank you sir I am glad you are such a professional in your moderating duties. Very rough outfit. My mistake for thinking that you would have helped me by telling me that I was handling the focus of the site wrong. I did not think I was making anything up, especially ****. I was repeating something that was said on mlb network about reputations of different pitching coaches. I apologies for my behavior. Next time, there probably will not be a next time, I will remember to use proven info to back up my opinions.
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Post by dnfl333 on Aug 13, 2016 19:55:39 GMT -5
You think Dombrowski is going to let Farrell go and give the job to his side kick in Lovullo? Give me a break. If It did happen Dombrowski is just as much to blame as the next guy.
We all talk how terrible a manager Farrell is but yet Lovullo is right there with him during what we the fans categorize as bad in game decisions either with relievers or offensive players.
Farrell is gone. The ? Is who is on the short list. Jim Leyland Ron Gardenhire Andy Haines Todd Greene Alex Cora ?
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Post by GyIantosca on Aug 13, 2016 21:00:05 GMT -5
I have gone back and forth on this and my conclusion is the close games. This is my evaluation of him and he fails. Maybe Farrell won a title with the Sox team with more veterans but this team going forward is young and getting younger. Successful teams need to learn how to win those close games. This team is so talented . Maybe he needs to grow with the team. I feel this team responds with Torry better it feels that way to me. I just hate the way this team plays with close games. I mean the bullpen is killing this team. I would think Farrell would of gotten a handle on it by now. I am not sure what the measure is that you use from fangraphs and such to back up whatever opinion you have on whether Farrell stays or goes. Not interested in getting into another argument that the one guy above got into about not being interested in metrics etc. Useful tool.It does seem that after watching baseball for 40 years the numbers in the standings do not match the talent level of the team. Looking at some of the metrics and info submitted above, Farrell is not getting the job done. I guess it comes down to whether the front office thinks he is doing the job they want. I am not sure there is a metric or a specific data piece that tells you how Farrell relates to the players and whether they will play their ass for him and they get the desired results. From what has been said so far it appears that he has problems relating and that he should go. I am not measuring anything. I going by what I see .
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Post by yazman67 on Aug 13, 2016 21:04:38 GMT -5
Fire Farrell during this game. He is clueless handling the bullpen!
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Post by cba82 on Aug 14, 2016 6:49:24 GMT -5
You think Dombrowski is going to let Farrell go and give the job to his side kick in Lovullo? Give me a break. If It did happen Dombrowski is just as much to blame as the next guy. We all talk how terrible a manager Farrell is but yet Lovullo is right there with him during what we the fans categorize as bad in game decisions either with relievers or offensive players. Farrell is gone. The ? Is who is on the short list. Jim Leyland Ron Gardenhire Andy Haines Todd Greene Alex Cora ? This is a good point, and seemingly overlooked by most who argue in favor of firing Farrell and hiring Lovullo. The biggest knock on Farrell seems to be his in-game decision-making, and isn't that what a bench coach is there to help with? (Of course, for all we know, perhaps Farrell doesn't seek Lovullo's input in this way, or perhaps he does and ignores it.) As a practical matter, the opportunity to make a change may already have been missed, and I don't see anything happening until after the season.
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Post by ryan24 on Aug 14, 2016 7:29:23 GMT -5
I am not sure what the measure is that you use from fangraphs and such to back up whatever opinion you have on whether Farrell stays or goes. Not interested in getting into another argument that the one guy above got into about not being interested in metrics etc. Useful tool.It does seem that after watching baseball for 40 years the numbers in the standings do not match the talent level of the team. Looking at some of the metrics and info submitted above, Farrell is not getting the job done. I guess it comes down to whether the front office thinks he is doing the job they want. I am not sure there is a metric or a specific data piece that tells you how Farrell relates to the players and whether they will play their ass for him and they get the desired results. From what has been said so far it appears that he has problems relating and that he should go. I am not measuring anything. I going by what I see . I totally agree.
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Post by ryan24 on Aug 14, 2016 7:35:29 GMT -5
You think Dombrowski is going to let Farrell go and give the job to his side kick in Lovullo? Give me a break. If It did happen Dombrowski is just as much to blame as the next guy. We all talk how terrible a manager Farrell is but yet Lovullo is right there with him during what we the fans categorize as bad in game decisions either with relievers or offensive players. Farrell is gone. The ? Is who is on the short list. Jim Leyland Ron Gardenhire Andy Haines Todd Greene Alex Cora ? This is a good point, and seemingly overlooked by most who argue in favor of firing Farrell and hiring Lovullo. The biggest knock on Farrell seems to be his in-game decision-making, and isn't that what a bench coach is there to help with? (Of course, for all we know, perhaps Farrell doesn't seek Lovullo's input in this way, or perhaps he does and ignores it.) As a practical matter, the opportunity to make a change may already have been missed, and I don't see anything happening until after the season. Totally understand that line of reasoning. Maybe dd waits until the end of the season to pick his guy? Not sure who is on dd's short list. I would think you would have to have someone with experience with young players.
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