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Blake Swihart's Future in Boston
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Post by malynn19 on May 30, 2016 15:06:33 GMT -5
The Swihart situation to me is complicated. Look at his historic passed ball and WP numbers and they are real bad. A lot of that is probably catching S. Wright but if they considered Vazquez as the starter it was probably unacceptable for Swihart to catch Wright any more defensively. Particularly when we have sinkerballs like Porcello on staff. So something had to be done if the back up catcher was going to be the guy catching Wright. They also saw the LF situation and the fact that Swihart is a young, very athletic player who could clearly develop into a good defensive outfielder. And they didn't know what they had in Bradley going into this year and Holt was the starter in LF so is it really that much of a surprise that they decided to give Swihart some development time in LF? Jesus, the guy is just barely 24 years old and some people think he will never hit well enough to play the OF when he is probably at least average defensively out there? When he hit 300 over the last half of last year and has historically finished strong most of his years in the minors even as a catcher? The guy seems to be capable of making adjustments and keeping himself healthy. Swihart keeps getting better as a player. Isn't that clear by now after watching his development? He's still only 24 years old. I think Swihart is a diamond in the rough still. I'm all for him adding some positional flexibility by giving him some PT in LF. He is a long term project and all the savants insisting that Vazquez blew him away as a player could well end up wrong before all this is through. Remove Wright from the equation and maybe Swihart is acceptable defensively at catcher eventually. I don't think it is pitch calling and pitch framing as much as it is passed balls and wild pitches allowed. He doesn't block pitches well. That's the biggest problem. But lots of catchers come up with that problem at first especially with Swihart having to catch Wright both some last year and this year ( I'm assuming, I haven't looked it up ). I wouldn't trade Swihart. I'd actually make him the starter and Vazquez the back up and trade Hannigan, who still has value. Vasquez will never hit well enough to be the starter and his pitch framing is probably over rated. And I have no doubt lots of teams would consider Swihart a blue chip guy to trade for. This is what would make this team better. Win baby win. Well Said. I think Vazquez pitch framing and game calling (just look at Koji vs Donaldson on Friday) are overrated as well. But is he better than Swihart defensively? He better be, that's all he has ever done since young with the Molina brothers. But can he hit better than Swihart? No, second half of last season, Swihart was amazing. I would make Swihart the starting catcher as well and maybe bring Vazquez in late innings or when Wright/Porcello are pitching. But no way would I trade either one of them at this time.
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Post by soxfan06 on May 30, 2016 17:47:29 GMT -5
Honestly, I don't think Swihart is some super player. But I believe he certainly has a MLB future as an above average MLB catcher. I believe he should be catching games in the MLB. Especially with Hanigan giving us pretty much nothing this year. We should be getting him time in both LF and C in the majors so he can work on his bat.
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Post by larrycook on May 30, 2016 18:26:18 GMT -5
Honestly, I don't think Swihart is some super player. But I believe he certainly has a MLB future as an above average MLB catcher. I believe he should be catching games in the MLB. Especially with Hanigan giving us pretty much nothing this year. We should be getting him time in both LF and C in the majors so he can work on his bat. Hanigan took a beating today while catching wright. Hard to swing a hit bat when you are that beat up. But I love the way he takes charge of the pitchers when he is catching,
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on May 30, 2016 20:43:36 GMT -5
Some useful facts:
They avoided having Swihart catch Wright in 2014 in Pawtucket. But he caught him 3 times in April of 2015 (18 IP, 3 PB, 2 WP) and 14 times since in MLB.
CV and Wright were teammates for less than a week in Portland in 2012 and a few days in Pawtucket at the end of 2013. CV caught him three times in June of 2014 and allowed 1 WP and 0 PB in 21 IP. He's caught him 5 times in MLB.
This includes those 6 games:
Catcher IP PB WP WPBA BS 88.3 14 4 1.83 RH 65.0 13 5 2.49 CV 36.0 2 2 1.00 If Swihart keeps hitting like this, I think he stays in LF vs. RHP when Holt returns from the DL. But he has to catch, too, and the obvious thing to do is make him E-Rod's personal catcher. They had great results last year together.
Meanwhile, at some point I'd think about having CV catch Wright, and Hanigan catch Kelly. Obviously Hanigan and sometimes Swihart gets an extra start behind the plate whenever they have a day game after a night game or a doubleheader.
Now, in this scenario, Holt gets starts all over the field like he's supposed to, but the cool thing is that the guy who's being rested can PH for the catcher without JF needing Xanax.
And this doesn't preclude trading for Reddick or Gonzalez in July, and dealing Hanigan to some contender who needs catching help.
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Post by mandelbro on May 31, 2016 7:44:14 GMT -5
The key for Swihart offensively, as far as I can tell, is knowing the strike zone.
He's got great bat speed and when he swings, good things generally happen. His problem is that he too often swings at the wrong pitches and lays off the right pitches.
I have no doubt he'll hit enough to be an average bat at LF/great bat at C if he can sort out his approach.
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Post by rjp313jr on May 31, 2016 9:08:58 GMT -5
I think some people over-rate the offense around baseball at both first base and left field...
Swithart seems to be heating up with the bat lately too so we'll see where it goes. He's hardly a finished product at the plate.
I read a post about Swithart needs to catch to talk with Vasquez to learn pitch calling and defense. Who's to say he's not doing those things anyways? Young players often time get side work in early in the day before games.
It's too early to judge what either player will become. I'm happy to have them both.
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Post by okin15 on May 31, 2016 14:56:51 GMT -5
I read a post about Swihart needs to catch to talk with Vasquez to learn pitch calling and defense. Who's to say he's not doing those things anyways? Young players often time get side work in early in the day before games. This might have been me as I said something similar, but your point is very good. Without the roving catcher guru the Sox used to have, it might be that Vasquez is the best catching instructor that Swihart can have, so maybe this is good for his catching? I'm not totally buying it, but it's not a bad theory.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 3, 2016 18:06:39 GMT -5
I concur with those who think Swihart should still be catching some. Even just on days when you'll want to go with a Young-Bradley-Betts outfield, I don't see why he can't catch some of those.
I know it's not quite the same, but I don't see why it can't be like Shaw, who's the 1B on days when Ortiz sits and Ramirez is the DH.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2016 18:43:56 GMT -5
I concur with those who think Swihart should still be catching some. Even just on days when you'll want to go with a Young-Bradley-Betts outfield, I don't see why he can't catch some of those. I know it's not quite the same, but I don't see why it can't be like Shaw, who's the 1B on days when Ortiz sits and Ramirez is the DH. Agree. I might be way off here, but it seems to me that playing Swihart exclusively in LF shows a complete lack of faith in his abilities as a catcher. The Vazquez TJ surgery hurt the Sox in more ways than one. If Vazquez had been healthy during the 2015 season, the Sox could have explored a trade using Swihart as the headliner when his trade value was sky high. Now...how much would Swihart fetch in a trade? At this point, he's a light-hitting left fielder, no longer the game's best catching prospect.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Jun 3, 2016 23:44:59 GMT -5
I concur with those who think Swihart should still be catching some. Even just on days when you'll want to go with a Young-Bradley-Betts outfield, I don't see why he can't catch some of those. I know it's not quite the same, but I don't see why it can't be like Shaw, who's the 1B on days when Ortiz sits and Ramirez is the DH. I concur with those who think Swihart should still be catching some. Even just on days when you'll want to go with a Young-Bradley-Betts outfield, I don't see why he can't catch some of those. I know it's not quite the same, but I don't see why it can't be like Shaw, who's the 1B on days when Ortiz sits and Ramirez is the DH. Agree. I might be way off here, but it seems to me that playing Swihart exclusively in LF shows a complete lack of faith in his abilities as a catcher. The Vazquez TJ surgery hurt the Sox in more ways than one. If Vazquez had been healthy during the 2015 season, the Sox could have explored a trade using Swihart as the headliner when his trade value was sky high. Now...how much would Swihart fetch in a trade? At this point, he's a light-hitting left fielder, no longer the game's best catching prospect. I really, really hope the exclusive-LF phase is just until Holt returns. That is defensible. If that's not the case, they're being idiots.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Jun 4, 2016 5:09:15 GMT -5
I concur with those who think Swihart should still be catching some. Even just on days when you'll want to go with a Young-Bradley-Betts outfield, I don't see why he can't catch some of those. I know it's not quite the same, but I don't see why it can't be like Shaw, who's the 1B on days when Ortiz sits and Ramirez is the DH. Agree. I might be way off here, but it seems to me that playing Swihart exclusively in LF shows a complete lack of faith in his abilities as a catcher. The Vazquez TJ surgery hurt the Sox in more ways than one. If Vazquez had been healthy during the 2015 season, the Sox could have explored a trade using Swihart as the headliner when his trade value was sky high. Now...how much would Swihart fetch in a trade? At this point, he's a light-hitting left fielder, no longer the game's best catching prospect. I really, really hope the exclusive-LF phase is just until Holt returns. That is defensible. If that's not the case, they're being idiots. Sadly I'm thinking it's here until Benintendi arrives.
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Post by southpaw777 on Jun 4, 2016 6:01:55 GMT -5
I Think Gms know that Swihart is still a project behind the plate defensively, even before the Sox were forced to call him up. I think the way he handled himself last year, as well as this year, has only increased his value. He wont touch vaz defensively as vaz wont touch swihart offensively. Thats not to say either one wont be at least mlb average. I think Swihart can be at least an average defender as a catcher and Vaz the same on offense. I do like Swihart better in the OF though. Yes i know his value is as a catcher. He just looks more natural in the OF to me. If i had to guess which two current Sox player could be available in the right trade id say Swihart and JBJ. Not that i want either gone, but I know the Sox NEED pitching. With Sam Travis hurt that kind of saves Shaw, IF he was even available. Moncada and Benintendi are pretty untouchable as well as Espinoza. I doubt they get an offer good enough to include any of those three. If they do, They might have to part with one if the right guy is avaiable. Vaz should be the starter. Once the rust is off after having TJS and a year off, his accuracy will be fine. Pop time and arm strength look good already and hes not even 100% full strength. If he hits 240-50, which im sure he will, hes the starter. With they way they seem to be viewing Benintendi someone will have to go in the OF. It still remains to be seen how he will do in AA. Too early to tell. JBJs value is at an all time high right now. I think Swihart can be an all star in either LF or as a Catcher. I think some Gms think the same thing and have put a very high value on him. Also, depending on the quality of an organizations catching depth, swiharts value could be that much more to that/those team(s). Listen, id like to keep all of these kids that are turning into all star type players. But the realistic view is we will have to make some painful moves to acquire what we NEED.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 6, 2016 3:29:20 GMT -5
I concur with those who think Swihart should still be catching some. Even just on days when you'll want to go with a Young-Bradley-Betts outfield, I don't see why he can't catch some of those. I know it's not quite the same, but I don't see why it can't be like Shaw, who's the 1B on days when Ortiz sits and Ramirez is the DH. I think this problem is all tied with Ryan Hanigan and/or the lack of major league catching depth in the system. Right now he's the worst position player on the Sox right now and the Sox should be thinking about cutting bait with him, but they can't because they have no one else in AAA with major league options. It would of been just fine if Swihart was catching 1-2 games a week and seeing 1-2 games a week in LF (before the injury that is). Actually that would be more ideal than the strict platoon he was on before the injury (which was dumb because he was actually good at hitting lefties in his minor league career). The Sox lack of catching depth is kind of hurting the team if the Sox feel compelled to keep a horribly declining player in Hanigan for no other reason than just depth at this point. Hanigan has been so bad this year. I feel a whole lot better about the backup catching situation with Sandy Leon right now. That says a lot more about Hanigan than Leon. Yeah sure Leon can't hit still, but at least he does bring a glove and a great arm.
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Post by sox fan in nc on Jun 6, 2016 9:23:33 GMT -5
Hanigan's value should be at least handling Wright (as in Mirabelli). It doesn't seem to be working there. Add in the fact he can't hit his weight, there doesn't seem to be a fit. If Leon can catch Wright, I'd have to let Hanny go via trade (I know for peanuts) even with Swiharts injury.
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Post by ryantoworkman on Jun 6, 2016 10:19:37 GMT -5
I concur with those who think Swihart should still be catching some. Even just on days when you'll want to go with a Young-Bradley-Betts outfield, I don't see why he can't catch some of those. I know it's not quite the same, but I don't see why it can't be like Shaw, who's the 1B on days when Ortiz sits and Ramirez is the DH. I think this problem is all tied with Ryan Hanigan and/or the lack of major league catching depth in the system. Right now he's the worst position player on the Sox right now and the Sox should be thinking about cutting bait with him, but they can't because they have no one else in AAA with major league options. It would of been just fine if Swihart was catching 1-2 games a week and seeing 1-2 games a week in LF (before the injury that is). Actually that would be more ideal than the strict platoon he was on before the injury (which was dumb because he was actually good at hitting lefties in his minor league career). The Sox lack of catching depth is kind of hurting the team if the Sox feel compelled to keep a horribly declining player in Hanigan for no other reason than just depth at this point. Hanigan has been so bad this year. I feel a whole lot better about the backup catching situation with Sandy Leon right now. That says a lot more about Hanigan than Leon. Yeah sure Leon can't hit still, but at least he does bring a glove and a great arm. How do you watch a game, and interpret box scores? Do you look at situational hitting and give a guy credit for something that looks bad on a stats page, or in a box score? Hanigan gives himself up at least two ABs per game it seems. He's called on to hit and run often, and when he's not doing that, he's hitting behind the runner, and doing many other things with the bat to help the team win. I come to admire the selfless way he plays the game, always with team goals far out ahead of personal goals. He'll never be Johnny Bench, but he's nowhere near as bad as you portray him.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 6, 2016 12:17:19 GMT -5
I think this problem is all tied with Ryan Hanigan and/or the lack of major league catching depth in the system. Right now he's the worst position player on the Sox right now and the Sox should be thinking about cutting bait with him, but they can't because they have no one else in AAA with major league options. It would of been just fine if Swihart was catching 1-2 games a week and seeing 1-2 games a week in LF (before the injury that is). Actually that would be more ideal than the strict platoon he was on before the injury (which was dumb because he was actually good at hitting lefties in his minor league career). The Sox lack of catching depth is kind of hurting the team if the Sox feel compelled to keep a horribly declining player in Hanigan for no other reason than just depth at this point. Hanigan has been so bad this year. I feel a whole lot better about the backup catching situation with Sandy Leon right now. That says a lot more about Hanigan than Leon. Yeah sure Leon can't hit still, but at least he does bring a glove and a great arm. How do you watch a game, and interpret box scores? Do you look at situational hitting and give a guy credit for something that looks bad on a stats page, or in a box score? Hanigan gives himself up at least two ABs per game it seems. He's called on to hit and run often, and when he's not doing that, he's hitting behind the runner, and doing many other things with the bat to help the team win. I come to admire the selfless way he plays the game, always with team goals far out ahead of personal goals. He'll never be Johnny Bench, but he's nowhere near as bad as you portray him. Do you have any box scores of games in which he has "given himself up" multiple times like this? Even if that were true (it's not), .186/.250/.229 with lots of productive outs doesn't cut it in the majors. Maybe in like, low-level high school baseball that works, but not when you're getting paid $3.75 million to do a job. Frankly, given that it's the last year of his deal, if Swihart gets healthy and Leon hits better than he did last year (to be clear, this isn't a super likely scenario), it'd be entirely possible that Hanigan gets cut before the season ends.
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Post by ryantoworkman on Jun 6, 2016 12:23:12 GMT -5
That's why I asked the question. If a poster is looking at box scores and stats to form an opinion, they can't see how an at bat was utilized by the club. I was trying to understand if the poster was actually watching the games, or forming opinions from after game reports.
As far as I know, there is no box score that illustrates a hit and run out as anything but an out, or when making a productive out while moving a runner over. Unless of course an official scorer steps out of their box and awards sacs for these ABs.
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Post by thursty on Jun 6, 2016 13:21:32 GMT -5
That's why I asked the question. If a poster is looking at box scores and stats to form an opinion, they can't see how an at bat was utilized by the club. I was trying to understand if the poster was actually watching the games, or forming opinions from after game reports. As far as I know, there is no box score that illustrates a hit and run out as anything but an out, or when making a productive out while moving a runner over. Unless of course an official scorer steps out of their box and awards sacs for these ABs. Well there is no box score per se, but there are stats that take into account just those scenarios, viz RE(24) and WPA. Hanigan in 2016: RE: -4.44 WPA: -.2 Both stats have an average of 0. For reference, Vazquez is the worst on the team, at -13.24 and -.44
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 6, 2016 13:44:46 GMT -5
That's why I asked the question. If a poster is looking at box scores and stats to form an opinion, they can't see how an at bat was utilized by the club. I was trying to understand if the poster was actually watching the games, or forming opinions from after game reports. As far as I know, there is no box score that illustrates a hit and run out as anything but an out, or when making a productive out while moving a runner over. Unless of course an official scorer steps out of their box and awards sacs for these ABs. It's pretty simple to go into the play-by-play and find examples. Would go in as a groundout with runners advancing, for example.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Jun 6, 2016 13:57:54 GMT -5
Vazquez has 323 PAs in the MLB and missed a year in between some of them. He's going to improve at the plate even if he won't be proficient there. I'm happy we still have him to start.
I could see Dombrowski having interest in Lucroy at the deadline though. It's too bad they don't have a young arm of that much interest. Maybe Nelson but he's Joe Kelly-esque. Jungmann has completely fallen apart and lost velo. Wouldn't shock me if he had TJS soon.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 8, 2016 6:38:19 GMT -5
The more and more I see Vasquez hit, the more I think that Swihart has a future in Boston.
Vasquez seems destined for a good backup catcher role who sees more at bats than a regular backup.
Vasquez has been one of the more disappointing stories so far in 2016. I hope I'm wrong about Vasquez and hope it's the year off that's affecting his performance now but Vasquez has been average defensively and atrocious offensively.
They're pinch hitting him every late inning chance they get and there's a good reason for it.
Again I hope I'm wrong about Vasquez but his performance should raise red flags and it should give the Sox a second thought about making Swihart expendable in trade talks.
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Post by sox fan in nc on Jun 8, 2016 10:08:43 GMT -5
I know he's not in the long term plans (that I know of) but Leon looked pretty good last night. I thought he "presented" a few good borderline calls that got some strikes for his pitcher. Also, great double to spark the inning winning frame.
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Post by jclmontana on Jun 8, 2016 10:32:57 GMT -5
The more and more I see Vasquez hit, the more I think that Swihart has a future in Boston. Swihart may very well have a future in Boston, but it sure doesn't seem like it is going to be at catcher. A lot of posters have been making the same inferences as above, that Vasquez's crappy performance in 2016 somehow makes Swihart an acceptable option at catcher. It is, of course, not true. The use of Swihart exclusively in LF (in Boston) after being sent down to Pawtucket is a validation of his offensive potential and overall athleticism and a repudiation of his catcher defense/handling of pitchers. Management has clearly indicated that Swihart's catcher defense is inadequate, and nothing Vasquez does is going to change that. Maybe keeping Swihart out of the catcher mix is also about helping Vasquez feel secure in the starter role and allowing him to fully adjust after his lost 2015, but the front office has been pretty consistent in putting winning first, player egos and salaries be damned. They obviously see Vasquez as the catcher who can best help them win in 2016. And the use of Swihart in Pawtucket this year also indicates that they don't think much of Swihart's long term future at catcher, either. At the least, they are not planning on him being a full-time catcher, and they may be envisioning a Mike Napoli career path, where he eventually stops catching altogether. Swihart has lost a lot of his trade value, and won't be a headliner (even after his return from injury). That ship sailed, probably after every team got a nice, long look at his defense in 2015 and saw that he was a bad defensive catcher whose offensive upside was not likely to emerge if he stayed behind the plate. I'm okay with giving Vasquez a long leash to see if he can rebound and realize his upside. But, if he doesn't, I don't think Swihart is going to replace him. Crazy as it sounds, maybe the starting catcher in 2017 or 2018 will be neither Vasquez nor Swihart.
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Post by sox fan in nc on Jun 8, 2016 11:31:44 GMT -5
IMO, as Swihart's value has apparently dropped, he is better used as a "co-starter" with CV next year. Have him work with Wright to catch a knuckle ball (he is athletic enough). He will never be the hitter that Napoli/Schwarber are. He will be a good hitter, but for a catcher, not a LF/corner guy. The catcher position across the ML are not exactly lighting it up offensively.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 8, 2016 14:56:11 GMT -5
I don't buy that the Sox used Swihart in LF because they don't believe in him to catch. I think it speeks to more of a need in LF and Swihart being so athletic to do it. In this case his ability worked "against" him and his development at catcher.
The Sox definitely still viewed him as a long term at catcher.
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