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Boston Celtics 2016-17 Season Discussion
wcp3
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Post by wcp3 on Feb 28, 2017 15:00:53 GMT -5
Lots of people are overreacting a bit to the team's poor play and disappointing lack of moves at the deadline.
Could he Celtics lose in the first round? Sure, but it's highly unlikely unless they slip below a 3 seed. Aside from Cleveland, they're definitively better than everyone in the East with the exception of Toronto and Washington...and they could be slightly better than those teams, too.
The Celtics are just in the midst of one of those bleh runs every NBA team goes through, the Cavs included. While their shooting in January and (most of) February was unsustainable, they're also better than what they've shown lately. Bradley's return should help get them back on track.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Feb 28, 2017 20:33:52 GMT -5
Bogut to the Cavs. Nothing going the way of the Celtics this season. Ugh.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 28, 2017 21:28:26 GMT -5
Celtics have also ruled out Terrence Jones....
On the flip side, Boguts agent hopes the Celtics will revisit them in the off season.... sure we will get right on that.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Mar 1, 2017 6:09:15 GMT -5
Ya go climb a tree Bogut after you go to the Cavs. Looks like the "parity" in basketball will bring another championship to Cleveland.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Mar 1, 2017 6:14:49 GMT -5
I wish there was a fast forward button to the draft just to see where the Celtics land and to get the NBA finals over with. We all know it's going to be the same two teams that's been there the past 2 years. There's very little to invest in for a Celtics fan the rest of the way other than to maybe see Brown and Smart develop more. Other than that, it's going to be hard to watch them eventually falter in the playoffs in the first or second round.
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Post by voiceofreason on Mar 1, 2017 7:39:50 GMT -5
I wish there was a fast forward button to the draft just to see where the Celtics land and to get the NBA finals over with. We all know it's going to be the same two teams that's been there the past 2 years. There's very little to invest in for a Celtics fan the rest of the way other than to maybe see Brown and Smart develop more. Other than that, it's going to be hard to watch them eventually falter in the playoffs in the first or second round. I agree but for the most part but have felt that way all season, this wasn't going to be the year the C's made a big move up the food chain but they are improving. I am much more optimistic that next year with a few good moves and some luck we will be feeling differently. As far as I'm concerned Smart and Brown are moving in the right direction. Smarts ceiling is what it is and great teams can use a guy like him, even if it is ultimately off the bench. Brown on the other hand could be a future top 20 player IMO. The fact that his shooting is improving and he is becoming a very good defensive player is really important when you take into consideration that his strength is his athleticism and getting to the rim. Yes he needs to improve on finishing but that will come.
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 1, 2017 8:24:17 GMT -5
Cmon guys this team still has a lot to offer us as fans. UMass and I disagree with this but I still look at this as a rebuilding team and they are going to be a 2 or 3 seed. Plus, they have cap room and a top 4 pick coming in a good draft.
I agree they should focus on making sure Brown gets his minutes even with Bradley back because his long term development may be the most important thing to this team the rest of the way.
I mentioned Thomas as a sixth man before not because he can't be a starter. I said that was his best role for a top team. Like a better Lou Williams. Would he start for Golden State, Cleveland, Clippers, Spurs, Raptors, Rockets or even the Wizzards? I get that's not a perfect way of looking at things. His skill set as a volume ball dominant scorer and weak defensive player sets him up perfectly for a 6th man role.
The team can accomplish that by adding another "all-star" via free agency or trade, getting some luck and drafting a guy like Fultz (and him fulfilling his hype) and Brown developing.
Lots of unknowns there just saying what's probably ideal. The great Celtics teams have a long history of awesome 6th men and that's what Thomas would be.
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Post by voiceofreason on Mar 1, 2017 8:55:28 GMT -5
Can't argue with any of those thoughts, lots of reasons to be excited about the future and they are a good competitive team right now. Maybe the fact that Boston has become title town has an affect on our expectations.
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wcp3
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Post by wcp3 on Mar 1, 2017 8:56:44 GMT -5
He's good enough to start for all those teams, yes. But most of them have top 10 point guards, so it's not really a fair question to ask since NBA teams build their rosters around their best players. The real question is whether he's on par with those other elite point guards, and he's answered that question unequivocally.
I don't think the Thomas to the bench narrative is ridiculous, and that was actually my opinion until mid-way through last season. But that ship has sailed. He's so much better than all the other great sixth men we've seen over the past decade, so him coming off the bench is a non-starter (no pun intended).
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 1, 2017 8:59:46 GMT -5
There's fear that Durants knee injury is a lot worse than originally expected. Could be season ending; MRI pending...
Imagine Clevelands luck if he is out? Get Williams and Bogut for nothing - in theory 2 players they really need - then the super team standing in their way loses its best player.
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wcp3
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Posts: 3,823
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Post by wcp3 on Mar 1, 2017 9:01:43 GMT -5
Can't argue with any of those thoughts, lots of reasons to be excited about the future and they are a good competitive team right now. Maybe the fact that Boston has become title town has an affect on our expectations. I think that's part of it. It's also tantalizing when you watch a team that's getting real closer to being a contender, but it's justttt a bit outta reach. The NBA is a little frustrating in that regard - it's not like other sports where several teams that make the playoffs have a legitimate shot to win it. Basketball is my favorite sport, so I enjoy watching a quality Celts team over the course of 82 games. But I get why it can be tough to get too invested when you basically know the outcome already.
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 1, 2017 9:02:22 GMT -5
He's good enough to start for all those teams, yes. But most of them have top 10 point guards, so it's not really a fair question to ask since NBA teams build their rosters around their best players. The real question is whether he's on par with those other elite point guards, and he's answered that question unequivocally. I don't think the Thomas to the bench narrative is ridiculous, and that was actually my opinion until mid-way through last season. But that ship has sailed. He's so much better than all the other great sixth men we've seen over the past decade, so him coming off the bench is a non-starter (no pun intended). Don't forget with Thomas, we need to be projecting forward 2+ years down the road. As a Celtics fan, I'm not betting on his performances holding up like this in years 2-5 when we hope to have a championship level team.
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wcp3
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Post by wcp3 on Mar 1, 2017 9:16:47 GMT -5
Why? He has relatively low mileage for a 27-year-old, and he has the type of skill set (quick first step, all-around shooting) that tends to age well.
Allen Iverson is the guy people commonly compare him to because of their size and controlled recklessness driving to the basket. But AI averaged between 39.4-43.7 mpg from age 21-32. Isaiah has never averaged more than 34.7 mpg.
He will have to adjust the way he plays within the next few years, sure, but most NBA players do when they start to inch toward 30. One big advantage IT has over AI is his outside shooting, so he'll be able to be more selective with his drives to the basket in the future.
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 1, 2017 9:39:30 GMT -5
First, I have to clarify because when I don't UMass reads any questioning or criticism as hate. This is by no means meant to say I dislike or think Thomas is not a good player. It's more about what's his best fit for a championship level team. Ok...
I think his game is at it's absolute peak right now. I think his shooting is precisely why he will hold value as he ages. But I think people are falling in love with his offense too much and vastly under-rating how bad he is in other phases of the game. Iverson is a terrible player comp. Iverson was one of the best defensive players in the league... It's lazy.... the truth is there isn't a player Comp for Thomas and that's ok... Isaiah is a terrible defensive player and he's a terrible rebounder... he's not just not good at them he's completely terrible. If he's on a second unit, still playing 30 mins a game then you can stagger his minutes so a good chunk goes against the other teams second unit so his weaknesses aren't a big deal. Just a much more efficient use of him. I don't care if he's better than the sixth men of the last decade... he's a unique player. The thing about his weaknesses is there is literally nothing he can do to fix them.
You can't scoff at 29 ppg, but if 2 years from now he still doing that I'd be shocked.
Again, not saying he CANT start, just saying using him to revive the Celtics great sixth man history would be his best usage.
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 1, 2017 9:41:53 GMT -5
Anyways that's my argument - I won't use any more words on it. I think I've basically covered my why and hopefully made it clear I love and respect him as a player so I don't get any hate mail about it. We can agree to disagree
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Post by Don Caballero on Mar 1, 2017 9:57:13 GMT -5
Maybe Ainge should have made a move after all.
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 1, 2017 10:12:42 GMT -5
Maybe Ainge should have made a move after all. What move?
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wcp3
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Posts: 3,823
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Post by wcp3 on Mar 1, 2017 10:16:15 GMT -5
Ummm what? Allen Iverson was always up there in steals per game, but he wasn't considered one of the best defensive players in the league.
Isaiah's struggles on defense are well-documented and should be factored into any analysis of his game, but his offensive value goes well beyond just his points. Guys like Bradley and Crowder have seen their offensive numbers continue to rise in part because of the attention Isaiah draws. I think people are forgetting just how dreadful the offensive spacing was before the Celtics got Isaiah. Yes, his defense is an issue, which is why he will never be the best player on a championship team. But his offensive value extends beyond the numbers, especially on this roster.
I'll join you in discontinuing this debate, though.
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Post by voiceofreason on Mar 1, 2017 10:21:11 GMT -5
I have been with rjp when it concerns IT, I am sure you guys remember me comparing him to Vinnie the microwave in the past. If the C's get Fultz, Ball or Smith in the draft then that is probably what will happen in a few years. But right now he is carrying the C's and playing like a superstar so for now we take his D and O for what it is.
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Post by texs31 on Mar 1, 2017 10:32:03 GMT -5
My last on this (until anything this offseason prompts more direct conversation):
I think this offseason, they will talk to IT about an extension that they can stomach when the time comes around where he moves to the microwave role (something I still think could happen over the next 4-5 years). I would assume this could also be a contract that, in the new NBA, is still moveable.
If he wants max, then they might have to see what they can do about moving on over the course of the next year (offseason, deadline, etc).
I do wonder if getting that next star without giving up too many of Smart/Brown/BRK Picks is Danny's play bc he realizes that IT might not be a star on the next Boston championship team.
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wcp3
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Posts: 3,823
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Post by wcp3 on Mar 1, 2017 11:23:37 GMT -5
My last on this (until anything this offseason prompts more direct conversation): I think this offseason, they will talk to IT about an extension that they can stomach when the time comes around where he moves to the microwave role (something I still think could happen over the next 4-5 years). I would assume this could also be a contract that, in the new NBA, is still moveable. If he wants max, then they might have to see what they can do about moving on over the course of the next year (offseason, deadline, etc). I do wonder if getting that next star without giving up too many of Smart/Brown/BRK Picks is Danny's play bc he realizes that IT might not be a star on the next Boston championship team. Exactly this. Sounds like the Celts are trying to convince him to take a hometown discount of a few mill under the max, which seems fair for both sides. Not that I'd blame Isaiah for wanting the max, but you wonder if he'll be willing to listen since Boston gave him his first real chance at being a star in this league.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 1, 2017 12:41:40 GMT -5
The whole "you need X style to win in the playoffs" secret sauce stuff is mostly myth in basketball just as it is in baseball. You just need to be able to outscore the opponent. How you do it is not particularly relevant. Terrence Jones has averaged 0.86 PPP in the post this year (37th percentile) and 0.78 PPP in the post last year (38th percentile). He's not really much of a post player these days. Not trying to say he's a go to post scorer, but he takes over 70 % of his shots within 10 feet. He's a true post player, which is why he's a good rebounder. With this teams ball movement and his athletic ability he could have got a lot of easy baskets. Who was the last big we had that could roll to hoop and slam it home on a regular basis? He scored 36 points against Cleveland, he's had over 20 points like 8 times this year. That's something our bench could use. I also think Stevens could have got the most out of him. For example take more shots near rim and stop taking mid range shots. I think the Celtics ball movement would have been perfect for him. He's never played on a team that moves the ball like we do and it should have created easier looks for him. As to what it takes to win in Playoffs, it's really a known fact. Defense wins Championships. That's why even a team like the Warriors had Bogut. It's how the Pistons shocked the world when they won there last championship. Teams like the Sun's were elite on offense for years and failed in playoffs for years. It's a known fact that pace slows down in Playoffs, the game changes. In the playoffs you need go to scorers to create or get to line. We only have one player that can do that. So I don't see how an offensive game plan is going to work for this team. This teams offense is going to struggle in playoffs against the good teams. Now if they played great D, I can see Thomas and company doing enough to give you a chance to win. Without great D, it's not going to happen.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 1, 2017 12:46:55 GMT -5
Lots of people are overreacting a bit to the team's poor play and disappointing lack of moves at the deadline. Could he Celtics lose in the first round? Sure, but it's highly unlikely unless they slip below a 3 seed. Aside from Cleveland, they're definitively better than everyone in the East with the exception of Toronto and Washington...and they could be slightly better than those teams, too. The Celtics are just in the midst of one of those bleh runs every NBA team goes through, the Cavs included. While their shooting in January and (most of) February was unsustainable, they're also better than what they've shown lately. Bradley's return should help get them back on track. Well they have what a two game lead, with 22 games to play. So it's not a lock we get a top 3 seed. The Hawks scare me to death in first round. Even the Pistons could be a big problem because of Drummond. Heck the Bulls would have scared me, if they didn't make that bad trade to get rid of Gibson and McDermott. The Bulls front line out rebounded us by what 20 last game we played and they have two go to scorers.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 1, 2017 12:55:02 GMT -5
On a side note Celtics blog has reported that Celtics haven't ruled out a Sullinger return, but nothing is happening right now. I wonder if they told him get in shape and we'll sign you.
Danny if you bring back Sullinger for nothing it would be a great move. They always complained he couldn't play big minutes due to conditioning. We don't need him for 30 mins a night this year, only 15-20.
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Post by Don Caballero on Mar 1, 2017 13:08:07 GMT -5
One that theoretically was there. If the thinking behind him not making a move was that there was no decent move to be made, I'm totally fine with that line of thinking. If the thinking behind it was that no team was beating the Warriors or the Cavs anyway so why not delay the title, well then it was not a good idea. This is all irrational sports talk because we have no way of knowing what went down. But if a move wasn't made simply because the road to the title was blocked, that's looking flimsy right now.
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