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Boston Celtics 2016-17 Season Discussion
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Post by voiceofreason on Mar 24, 2017 12:43:51 GMT -5
@jaredweissnba (CelticsBlog) says that he's spoken to a slew of FO people that say KO's top market value is around $13Mn. I know opinions are divided here on him but what do folks think? IMO KO needs to be more aggressive, the playoffs will be a good test. A friend of mine who is a coach loves his game, he would know better than I.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 24, 2017 13:38:28 GMT -5
I think KO is the most underrated player on our team and it would be a blow if he left. I don't think he's worth 13 million, more like 10 million. We'll have to see how it plays out.
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 24, 2017 15:43:35 GMT -5
They picked up the defensive intensity about a month ago (not coincidentally, around when Bradley returned), but the rebounding remains a mystery from game to game. When they're competent on the boards, they're almost a lock to win. Grande always posts the stat, but I think they're something like 22-2 when they're even or better on the glass. I'm pretty sure the defense was playing a lot better before Bradleys return. I do not think it coincided with when he came back.
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Post by voiceofreason on Mar 24, 2017 15:49:38 GMT -5
Funny that you would call KO the most underrated player on the team when there was just an article written on how Bradley is the most underrated in the NBA. Bradley gets no love! He just keeps getting better and he is already pretty damn good.
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Post by texs31 on Mar 24, 2017 17:06:47 GMT -5
Yeah but once you get an article written explaining how you are underrated, you lose MOST underrated status.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 24, 2017 17:10:22 GMT -5
Funny that you would call KO the most underrated player on the team when there was just an article written on how Bradley is the most underrated in the NBA. Bradley gets no love! He just keeps getting better and he is already pretty damn good. Chris Mannix was saying Bradley is most underrated player in NBA on a National scale. I for one have my doubts about Mannix claims. I just find it hard to claim he's so underrated when he's made all NBA defense teams. When the reigning MVP gushes about him to the media, calling him the toughest defender he'd faced all year. Says Conley was most underrated for years, but gets a big contract so now he's not. So it's Bradley's small contract that makes him underrated? It all comes down to what your criteria is for being underrated. For me that's the best player a regular fan doesn't know about, I just don't see Bradley as that guy. I wouldn't have a problem calling Bradley one of the more underrated players in league, but not the most underrated. Bradley is not underrated in Boston, we know exactly how good he is. KO on the other hand people don't appreciate how good he is. How many times have die hard fans on this board called him garbage and said they hate him? A lot of times. Everyone see's this big unathletic white guy with T Rex arms and thinks he's not that good. The thing is he plays good D, advanced numbers have shown that for years now. He rebounds at a decent level, is a good shooter and is a good passer.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Mar 24, 2017 17:44:09 GMT -5
No KO gets no love because he's a 7 foot white guy who can't rebound. He plays like a SG or PG at 7 feet. I don't mind him off the bench, but if teams start overvaluing KO for a price too far fetched, then bye bye KO imo. They still have one year left of control I think, so it's not exactly a problem yet.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Mar 24, 2017 20:18:01 GMT -5
Devin Booker of the Suns is going to be the next big scorer in the league. Kid has game, wow what a great young offensive player he is.
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Post by Don Caballero on Mar 24, 2017 20:39:24 GMT -5
Devin Booker of the Suns is going to be the next big scorer in the league. Kid has game, wow what a great young offensive player he is. He looks legit, what a game he's having.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 24, 2017 21:27:42 GMT -5
No KO gets no love because he's a 7 foot white guy who can't rebound. He plays like a SG or PG at 7 feet. I don't mind him off the bench, but if teams start overvaluing KO for a price too far fetched, then bye bye KO imo. They still have one year left of control I think, so it's not exactly a problem yet. He's rebounding very well this year for what he is, a stretch big. He's a bad offensive rebounder because he plays on perimeter. His defensive rebounding % is over 20%. His overall rebounding numbers are better than Horford this year.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Mar 24, 2017 23:11:31 GMT -5
KO is playing against other teams 2nd unit big men. The Horford thing is meaningless. It's not a coincidence that when Dwight Howard was playing KO when Horford was out, he had his best game of the season and he was ejected.
He'll disappear when they play a real team in the playoffs.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 25, 2017 1:20:27 GMT -5
Last time I checked KO was a 2nd stringer, so he plays against a lot of second units. That doesn't change the fact that he has a very good defensive rebounding % this year. Don't act like he never plays against starters either.
The Horford thing isn't meaningless. Our offense kills our rebounding, by having all the bigs on the outside shooting 3s and creating. Our bigs just don't post up that much. So in that context KO defensive rebounding is actually a very pleasant surprise. He's made a big improvement this year. While Horford has been worse then even the low expectations I had for him.
If you're going to look at KO and judge him based off him playing Howard I don't know what to say to you. That's a mismatch all day long. KO is not an interior rim protector. That's why I've wanted another big like Johnson all year.
KO will be just fine in playoffs, as long as he's not asked to guard players like Howard and Drummond. That's not the job of a stretch big.
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 25, 2017 7:15:35 GMT -5
Bradley might be the most underpaid players if you ignore when his contract was sign but he's not underrated. He's also likely to get overpaid making him overpaid not overrated.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Mar 25, 2017 9:16:53 GMT -5
Bradley might be the most underpaid players if you ignore when his contract was sign but he's not underrated. He's also likely to get overpaid making him overpaid not overrated. What do they end up doing with Bradley, you think? 1 more year with him and Isaiah on the books.
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Post by telluricrook on Mar 25, 2017 10:39:09 GMT -5
I think KO is the most underrated player on our team and it would be a blow if he left. I don't think he's worth 13 million, more like 10 million. We'll have to see how it plays out. He is the most underrated because everyone thinks he sucks! And he doesnt suck but he is very dissapointing. Thats why its possible for him to to be underrated. 90% of the time he does 90 % of whats required for him to to on a play and then when its time to complete the play he makes the wrong decision. Wether its him about to take a good shot and then he hesitates with a couple pump fakes or with a pass! When he gets a rebound he takes like 5 seconds to decide who the hell he is going to pass the ball to. Its so frustrating watching him play because you can see him about to make the right play and then he hesitates like nobody I have ever seen before.
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Post by telluricrook on Mar 25, 2017 10:44:19 GMT -5
Bradley might be the most underpaid players if you ignore when his contract was sign but he's not underrated. He's also likely to get overpaid making him overpaid not overrated. What do they end up doing with Bradley, you think? 1 more year with him and Isaiah on the books. They should try to trade Bradley, Thomas and a Brooklyn pick for Devin Booker!
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Mar 25, 2017 11:31:28 GMT -5
Last time I checked KO was a 2nd stringer, so he plays against a lot of second units. That doesn't change the fact that he has a very good defensive rebounding % this year. Don't act like he never plays against starters either. The Horford thing isn't meaningless. Our offense kills our rebounding, by having all the bigs on the outside shooting 3s and creating. Our bigs just don't post up that much. So in that context KO defensive rebounding is actually a very pleasant surprise. He's made a big improvement this year. While Horford has been worse then even the low expectations I had for him. If you're going to look at KO and judge him based off him playing Howard I don't know what to say to you. That's a mismatch all day long. KO is not an interior rim protector. That's why I've wanted another big like Johnson all year. KO will be just fine in playoffs, as long as he's not asked to guard players like Howard and Drummond. That's not the job of a stretch big. Horford has been blocking out so guys like Crowder and Bradley can rebound. When KO gets matched up with starters like Howard and such, he gets burned. It is his job when he's playing out there to guard him or he wouldn't be out there. Being in a second unit will inflate your stats playing against inferior players. If you want to call it a surprise then go ahead. It doesn't really hold that much value in my eyes. KO will disappear in the playoffs if they play a big team or a real team. I think you have your head buried so far in stat books, you neglect to actually watch the game. There's a reason why Tommy raves about Smart every single game and tells everyone that KO doesn't know how to play like a big man. Yet you're here calling Smart a bust and KO the most underrated player in basketball. If KO isn't shooting well, he's basically useless. Also, it isn't KO's fault if he's shooting 3s and not getting offensive rebounds because he's a stretch big but it is Horford's fault for doing the same exact thing against the other teams better players? Stick Horford in the second unit. I guarentee you that he would be a better rebounder than KO. Come on dude.
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 25, 2017 13:35:07 GMT -5
Bradley might be the most underpaid players if you ignore when his contract was sign but he's not underrated. He's also likely to get overpaid making him overpaid not overrated. What do they end up doing with Bradley, you think? 1 more year with him and Isaiah on the books. I think it depends on what happens in the draft lottery. I think they should make and keep the pick no matter what as right now I'd be happy to add a talent like Fultz, Ball, Jackson or Tatum to this squad. I do like Bradley but I don't think him and Thomas are good together. I've been in favor of dealing Bradley to get something for him for this reason but maybe the best move is to wait until you draft and see what that player is like. If you end up with Fultz or Ball it may make sense to deal Thomas and keep Bradley assuming his contract demands are reasonable. 15-18m a year... I find it hard to justify more than that for a guy like him. If you end up with Jackson or Tatum then having Bradley around makes less sense. What I like most about keeping Avery is he does have the right attitude and work ethic to mentor young players who are working to improve their games. He adds something every year to take a step forward; he just can't stay on the court or run an offense and he's 6'3... that's tough to have in a SG with a tiny PG next to him.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 25, 2017 15:51:59 GMT -5
Last time I checked KO was a 2nd stringer, so he plays against a lot of second units. That doesn't change the fact that he has a very good defensive rebounding % this year. Don't act like he never plays against starters either. The Horford thing isn't meaningless. Our offense kills our rebounding, by having all the bigs on the outside shooting 3s and creating. Our bigs just don't post up that much. So in that context KO defensive rebounding is actually a very pleasant surprise. He's made a big improvement this year. While Horford has been worse then even the low expectations I had for him. If you're going to look at KO and judge him based off him playing Howard I don't know what to say to you. That's a mismatch all day long. KO is not an interior rim protector. That's why I've wanted another big like Johnson all year. KO will be just fine in playoffs, as long as he's not asked to guard players like Howard and Drummond. That's not the job of a stretch big. Horford has been blocking out so guys like Crowder and Bradley can rebound. When KO gets matched up with starters like Howard and such, he gets burned. It is his job when he's playing out there to guard him or he wouldn't be out there. Being in a second unit will inflate your stats playing against inferior players. If you want to call it a surprise then go ahead. It doesn't really hold that much value in my eyes. KO will disappear in the playoffs if they play a big team or a real team. I think you have your head buried so far in stat books, you neglect to actually watch the game. There's a reason why Tommy raves about Smart every single game and tells everyone that KO doesn't know how to play like a big man. Yet you're here calling Smart a bust and KO the most underrated player in basketball. If KO isn't shooting well, he's basically useless. Also, it isn't KO's fault if he's shooting 3s and not getting offensive rebounds because he's a stretch big but it is Horford's fault for doing the same exact thing against the other teams better players? Stick Horford in the second unit. I guarentee you that he would be a better rebounder than KO. Come on dude. Really? Your going to go by Tommy. The same guy that thought Walter McCarthy was a great player. He was an all-time great player, but he drives me crazy watching the games. The game has changed and he just doesn't get that. KO is the type of stretch big all teams want these days. If he's only on second unit which inflates his stats why is he ever matched up against Howard? The guy doesn't just play against scrubs like you think. You keep using Howard as an example why he's not good, but it completely disproves your theory about him not playing against starters. They pull Johnson a ton early and late in games and insert KO. He plays 21 minutes a night, he's not Jerebko playing like 10 minutes a night. KO against Howard is a mismatch both ways and that has to be what Stevens was thinking. KO can't guard Howard in the paint, but Howard surely can't guard KO on the perimeter. Again this is why I wanted to add another big, so Stevens can match-up against big teams. Right now he has to play KO because he has no one else. The results haven't been that bad because KO ranks #20 in RPM a head of players like Howard, Thompson and Drummond. Your focusing on one bad game, rather than looking at his impact over the whole season. Those numbers aren't a fluke either, he's done that for years now. I never called KO the most underrated player in Basketball, you lie! I said he was the most underrated player on our team. Can you understand the difference? Because it's huge, please just stop making stuff up. I have no problem with Horford offensive rebounding, it's his defensive rebounding that's a problem. It's not very good at all and is below his career norms, which weren't great to start with. When KO has a better rate there's a problem. Even if you want to slightly adjust it because one starts and one doesn't, it's not good.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Mar 25, 2017 19:01:54 GMT -5
"Your going to go by Tommy. The same guy that thought Walter McCarthy was a great player. He was an all-time great player, but he drives me crazy watching the games. The game has changed and he just doesn't get that."
Tommy knows more about basketball in his pinky than you do in your lifetime. He also won as a COACH of the Celtics too. He has a extremely high basketball IQ and he has been watching every Celtics game since like the 70's. He probably drives you nuts because you got your head buried so far in stat sheets that you can't recognize what he's talking about when it comes to watching the game. He knows exactly how to win in even today's game.
Tommy is biased towards every Celtic, not just Walter McCarthy. That's the only thing you can bash him for, not the fact that he doesn't know today's basketball. That whole comment is foolish.
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Post by telluricrook on Mar 25, 2017 22:31:18 GMT -5
Tommy Heinsohn on Kelly Olynyk "He comes into the league with more skills than Nowitzki"!
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 26, 2017 1:36:03 GMT -5
"Your going to go by Tommy. The same guy that thought Walter McCarthy was a great player. He was an all-time great player, but he drives me crazy watching the games. The game has changed and he just doesn't get that." Tommy knows more about basketball in his pinky than you do in your lifetime. He also won as a COACH of the Celtics too. He has a extremely high basketball IQ and he has been watching every Celtics game since like the 70's. He probably drives you nuts because you got your head buried so far in stat sheets that you can't recognize what he's talking about when it comes to watching the game. He knows exactly how to win in even today's game. Tommy is biased towards every Celtic, not just Walter McCarthy. That's the only thing you can bash him for, not the fact that he doesn't know today's basketball. That whole comment is foolish. I stand by my comment if what you said about Tommy is true. Thing is a don't think it's true, I think your making stuff up again. I can see Tommy praising Smart every game, he loves hustle players. I don't see him bashing KO all the time. KO plays hard all the time. He might have made a comment or two, but I don't buy the "tells everyone KO doesn't know how to play like a big man". Tommy is the ultimate Homer he loves all the players and the team can do no wrong. It's what drives me crazy, every defender fouls our players, but we never foul the other teams players. After 20 years of Tommy I had my fill, rather listen to other teams broadcasters. That's the second time you brought up stats. Do you really think stats and advanced stats are bad? Basketball is a fast paced sport. You don't catch every play that every player makes like in Baseball. Stats tell you the complete story. Unless your scoring the game as you watch it, even then you miss things. KO is the perfect example of that. If you just watch the game and don't focus on him I can understand why you might not like him. He doesn't make big plays on D. The thing with KO is that he's a fundamentally sound player that plays 100% all the time. You only remember Howard destroying him, not the little things he does. That's were advanced stats come in. He's better on D than he looks sometimes to the naked eye. His over all impact is big, he does a lot more than just shoot three's. His WS/48 is impressive, you should check it out.
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wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,821
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Post by wcp3 on Mar 26, 2017 9:01:15 GMT -5
Advanced stats are great, but they only tell you the full story when the proper context is used, which often times isn't. Advanced stats are more effective in baseball because it's a largely individual sport. But for basketball, there are so many mitigating factors, which means those stats can be misleading without providing the proper context.
A good example is our recent debate about extending Isaiah versus extending AB. Some people felt extending AB for $20 mill/season represented better value than Isaiah at the max ... which is a logical position to take when you look solely at advanced metrics. But would Bradley be as effective offensively without Isaiah to open things up for him? Maybe, maybe not, but without adding that context, you're missing a big piece.
With that said, you're right about it confirming or contradicting your impressions of things like Olynyk's defense. Many people think he's a bad defender because he doesn't look the part (and he was bad on that end when he entered the league), but that actually isn't the case - he's a solid defender whose versatility is valuable to the Celts. Advanced stats are great for evaluating single skill sets at a time.
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 26, 2017 11:47:20 GMT -5
Whoa whoa whoa why are we talking about "I Love Waltah" when we should be talking about Greg Stiemsma. Remember he looks like Bill Russell blocking shots!
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 26, 2017 15:41:36 GMT -5
Someone tell the Nets to stop winning games.
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