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Post by telson13 on Jun 29, 2017 18:41:52 GMT -5
They could probably get a Shelby Miller haul for Porcello in the offseason if he turns it around. That's the worst trade suggestion I've seen on this board, including all the suggestions to trade JBJ by that one guy who seems to hate him. You're grossly over rating Porcello's value imo. No one is ever getting the Shelby Miller return for that type of starter. People lost jobs over that trade. Getting a league average third baseman is exactly what the Sox need and Yuli could be better then that with everyday at bats. I think you might be grossly under-rating it, though.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 29, 2017 18:42:42 GMT -5
They could probably get a Shelby Miller haul for Porcello in the offseason if he turns it around. That's the worst trade suggestion I've seen on this board, including all the suggestions to trade JBJ by that one guy who seems to hate him. You're grossly over rating Porcello's value imo. No one is ever getting the Shelby Miller return for that type of starter. People lost jobs over that trade. Getting a league average third baseman is exactly what the Sox need and Yuli could be better then that with everyday at bats. And the value of Cy Young winning pitchers who are having an off year is worth one 33 year old barely better than replacement level player? Not to mention they would need another starter. If you really insist on being right about this like you always do, I won't be reading your posts anymore.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 29, 2017 18:46:02 GMT -5
You're grossly over rating Porcello's value imo. No one is ever getting the Shelby Miller return for that type of starter. People lost jobs over that trade. Getting a league average third baseman is exactly what the Sox need and Yuli could be better then that with everyday at bats. I think you might be grossly under-rating it, though. Ok maybe Houston throws in a extra piece (maybe a reliever?) I don't think the trade idea is all that far fetched. A guy like Gurriel would really help this team and I think even if you don't trade for Gray, a guy like Fister can give you close to what Porcello has given to this date.
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Post by Coreno on Jun 29, 2017 18:50:52 GMT -5
Can we go back to the fact that Yuli has 6 walks on the season? Yuck.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 29, 2017 18:51:25 GMT -5
You're grossly over rating Porcello's value imo. No one is ever getting the Shelby Miller return for that type of starter. People lost jobs over that trade. Getting a league average third baseman is exactly what the Sox need and Yuli could be better then that with everyday at bats. And the value of Cy Young winning pitchers who are having an off year is worth one 33 year old barely better than replacement level player? Not to mention they would need another starter. If you really insist on being right about this like you always do, I won't be reading your posts anymore. In Porcello's 2 and a half years in Boston and throughout his entire career, Porcello is kind of proving that the Cy Young last year was more of a outlier due to a career low Babip. I'm not insisting on being right either. I'm making a case for Gurriel. I think he's better than he has shown in limited plate appearances.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 29, 2017 19:07:00 GMT -5
Porcello has shown that he's at least a #3 pitcher for a long time. I really don't know why you think that's not valuable. He'd likely get a $150 million contract as a free agent if not more. I don't care how great you think Gurriel is. He'd be possibly the 3rd piece in a Porcello trade.
Remember when you wanted to dump Moreland in the first two weeks of the season? This is way more ridiculous. I'll let other people tell you how nuts this suggestion is now.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 29, 2017 19:25:30 GMT -5
I do think Porcello is valuable, I just think a guy like Gurriel is more valuable to the Sox right now. He has flashes of Beltre in him.
I think any GM that'd give 150 million to Porcello to a contract should be fired immediately.
I was joking about the Moreland thing back then. I use the mobile app version of this board and can't use italics.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 29, 2017 19:27:57 GMT -5
You win, I give up. Even though I'd only trade Castillo for Gurriel, let's trade a #3 pitcher for him instead and then worry about finding another starter later when every team in the league is looking for one. Because the odds of Fister being as good as Porcello for the rest of the season is a sure thing. That's why he was just released. Maybe we should throw in a little more too, given that Houston like him so much they don't even use him as an every day player.
And then maybe Porcello could beat us in the playoffs.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 29, 2017 19:41:41 GMT -5
Maybe you could build a package around Porcello if people are valuing him that way. He hasn't been a number 3 based off results though and it's no guarantee he gets to this point either. I'm not here to win, just throwing a idea out there.
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Post by sarasoxer on Jun 29, 2017 19:44:39 GMT -5
Can we go back to the fact that Yuli has 6 walks on the season? Yuck. Yeah but...he has a real pretty swing and when he connects....whoeee. Look you don't walk your way to the bigs. OBP is overrated. Look to do damage. Porcello was a Cy Young. Maybe this guy could be MVP. Then it would be an even trade.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 29, 2017 19:49:24 GMT -5
I'll bow out of the conversation. I do think Yuli is better than people are giving him credit for. That's all. He is a league average third baseman at worst. He is a run producer at a premium position at best.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 29, 2017 20:05:49 GMT -5
I'm done also, but just wanted to add that Porcello is a Cy Young winner at best.
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Post by Coreno on Jun 29, 2017 20:09:18 GMT -5
You want to trade a 28 year old reigning CY winner straight up for a 33 year old with a .730 career OPS? I dont care where Porcello's ERA is, if you move him it needs to be for a more certain return than "he has flashes of Beltre." To be frank, the closest resemblance he bears to Adrian Beltre is in age.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 29, 2017 20:10:40 GMT -5
I'm done also, but just wanted to add that Porcello is a Cy Young winner at best. That he did prove. No doubt. Just a big fan of Gurriel.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 29, 2017 20:11:53 GMT -5
You want to trade a 28 year old reigning CY winner straight up for a 33 year old with a .730 career OPS? I dont care where Porcello's ERA is, if you move him it needs to be for a more certain return than "he has flashes of Beltre." To be frank, the closest resemblance he bears to Adrian Beltre is in age. He has done this in what, 350 plate appearances? Too soon to make judgements, especially when he's not playing everyday. Okay I'm done.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 29, 2017 20:22:37 GMT -5
Pedro love ya man but a 33 year old with 350 plate appearances doesn't have upside - skills start to decline and the guys you mention him being behind haven't been around all that long.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 29, 2017 21:18:44 GMT -5
No offense Pedro, but the Gurriel/Porcello idea doesn't make much sense.
First of all, by some point next season if not sooner, 3b is finally likely to cease being an issue. You have a 3b who is among the best prospects in baseball who should be ready to take over by then. And behind him you have two other good 3b prospects in Chavis and Dalbec.
The 3b problem is a short-term one at this point, although it's been a long running one - a problem that Devers is likely to stop.
Gurriel on a short contract would make sense, except it's not a short contract.
Gurriel is 33 years old already and a guy who hasn't proven that he can succeed in the majors. And at 33 he's not getting any younger. Only David Ortiz gets better when he ages. So you get him long-term past his Cuban league prime years and we don't know that he can hit at that point like a 1b/dh would because at some point he wouldn't be the 3b.
And to trade Porcello away makes no sense.
You label him an innings eater, which he is, but what a valuable commodity that is. And that doesn't take his upside into account. His upside is that he's a durable starter, who if he gets his mechanics straightened out, can be a young Adam Wainright for a season. His downside is that he's an innings eater, so that's a valuable player.
And it's very valuable to the Red Sox because if you remove Porcello from the rotation you're relying heavily on an E-Rod coming off a knee injury which takes time to heal (he was roughed up tonight and pitched poorly after the injury last season), a recently released Doug Fister, David Price and Drew Pomeranz with their health concerns, and a lot of Velazquez and Johnson. No thanks. Porcello has been rather mediocre to bad this year, but not 4-10 bad.
So if you lose Porcello then what do you do? You're probably forced to deal for a pitcher like Sonny Gray, who's likely not going to pitch as well at Fenway as he did in the Oakland Coliseum. And what does he fetch in a deal? Probably Devers, so in essence you're dealing Devers and Porcello for Gurriel and Gray. No thank you to that.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 29, 2017 21:45:07 GMT -5
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Post by telson13 on Jun 29, 2017 22:29:51 GMT -5
I think you might be grossly under-rating it, though. Ok maybe Houston throws in a extra piece (maybe a reliever?) I don't think the trade idea is all that far fetched. A guy like Gurriel would really help this team and I think even if you don't trade for Gray, a guy like Fister can give you close to what Porcello has given to this date. Porcello has, for his career, pitched as a #3. He's coming off of a Cy Young. He looks to be having some trouble with his release (and his sinker's getting shelled), but he has a year and a half of control at what, given his just-post-Cy status, is marginally below market value. No, he hasn't been "good," more like a 3/4, but he's also not terrible. He should have a market value in trade of, say, a top-50 headliner prospect and another 100-120 guy, plus probably one or a couple of talented lottery tickets. That's fair value in a midseason trade, based on history. Gurriel is a 33-y/o at a position with no future in the Sox organization. It's spoken for, probably as early as next spring and maybe sooner. He doesn't get on base well. He's in the historical decline phase of his career. There's no good evidence that he'd be superior to even, say, a Devers call-up. Given his contract, he probably shouldn't net more than a C+/B- prospect and a fungible relief arm or two, especially when the trading team can't get him at-bats (and other teams know that...meaning the acquiring team has leverage). It's cool if you like him, and you might be right, but you're: 1) Giving back WAYYYY too much, and 2) Creating a giant mid-rotation hole in the middle of a contending season. If they can get him for one or two of their R5-eligible relievers (not likely given Houston's incredible bullpen, but maybe), and taking on half of his salary? Sure. But throwing Porcello away? You're killin' me, Smalls.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Jun 29, 2017 22:43:25 GMT -5
If it did this winter, I don't see why it wouldn't now.
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Post by Coreno on Jun 29, 2017 23:57:35 GMT -5
BTW Gurriel has played in all but about 12 of HOU's games, not sure where the whole "He'll be better with regular ABs" theory came from.
He's also played 20 career games at 3B, so we don't even really know how well he can handle the hot corner.
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Post by ryan24 on Jun 30, 2017 6:23:28 GMT -5
I do not believe him. Resetting the cap number has a huge impact on the future. But then again, if a QUALITY ss or 3rd guy becomes available then I would say all bets are off on what Dave would do. Dave's perception of what he thinks is quality and mine are probably different. Would Washington trade their 3rd baseman for Kelly, Chavis and one other reliever from AAA? Probably not but, you never know? That was an example. Dave said last year that if you have a real chance of winning it all this year then you go for it because you may not get the chance again. What would K.C. really take for moose? I hope he sticks to the plan he stated earlier in the season about staying under the cap and rebuilding the farm. But I also thought Kopech was a keeper.
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Post by ryan24 on Jun 30, 2017 6:27:00 GMT -5
I wonder if you could get a shortstop and fill the hole at 3rd with XB whether that would work? Only looking at a short term fix. I know XB did not adjust well when he was moved the last time.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 30, 2017 6:31:09 GMT -5
I wonder if you could get a shortstop and fill the hole at 3rd with XB whether that would work? Only looking at a short term fix. I know XB did not adjust well when he was moved the last time. That would leave you with a very unhappy Xander who'd have to transition to a position he hasn't played in a while and wasn't that great at. They actually need offense anyways. Just find a competent fielding 3b (which would be an improvement) who can swing the bat.
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Post by ryan24 on Jun 30, 2017 6:32:25 GMT -5
You are in 1st in the division and second in the league behind Houston. You have sales and no one else in the division has anything like that. The bullpen has been great. Is there a real reason to make a drastic move for a player that would either push us over the cap or have us lose another farm team player of quality?
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