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What could you get for ERod or Pomeranz straight up?
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Post by Guidas on Jul 23, 2017 13:29:39 GMT -5
ERod, I think gets you more if he has one more good start before the deadline. I would want an elite or near elite bat that is controllable for next 2 years minimum in a position of need (3rd or 1st seem to be most needy). Pretty short list, actually, if you get realistic:
Votto (who breaks the lux tax limit), Smoak, Boar, maybe Arenado if you believe that Col will trade their best player for something they need more, pitching. Anyone I'm missing? Just curious what y'all think.
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Post by doctorduck21 on Jul 23, 2017 14:15:22 GMT -5
I don't think we can get elite anything with them by themselves. They both have injury concerns. Elbow\forearm for Pom and the knee with E-Rod.
One of those situations that they might be more valuable to the Sox then to a team acquiring them.
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Post by jmei on Jul 24, 2017 8:05:56 GMT -5
The step down from any of them to Brian Johnson probably cancels out the added value of whoever you'd get for one of them.
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Post by Guidas on Jul 24, 2017 11:57:02 GMT -5
The step down from any of them to Brian Johnson probably cancels out the added value of whoever you'd get for one of them. I get that, but I was going with the "Big 3" for a playoff roster and ascribing to the Theo Epstein idea that your fifth starter, whomever it is, is basically an "innings eater" whom you would hope would generate a .500 record in his starts at best. I am also working with the 3-year window, as I think at least 2 if not all of the big 3 are gone after the end of that period. 2018-19 O.S. will also be a big spend year for this team to keep from trying to do a total rebuild, but this is definitely a win now team. Finally, I do think they could win now, this year, if they had that "big bat." Not as sure about next year or the year after, even if they, say, add Hosmer in the off-season. |
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Post by jmei on Jul 24, 2017 12:10:48 GMT -5
You're too worried about "profile"-- it doesn't matter how your team gets production, just that it gets it somehow. Trading pitching for power when it doesn't really improve the team overall and loses years of team control on the back end is a bad idea.
Plus, you should be just as concerned (if not more so) about getting to the playoffs than about the playoff rotation, not to mention that the guy who gets bumped from the rotation then potentially becomes a useful reliever. Brian Johnson is not close to a reliable innings eater, the rest of the rotation has a few injury question marks, and the rotation depth behind Johnson gets very sketchy very quickly.
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Post by Guidas on Jul 24, 2017 14:05:24 GMT -5
You're too worried about "profile"-- it doesn't matter how your team gets production, just that it gets it somehow. Trading pitching for power when it doesn't really improve the team overall and loses years of team control on the back end is a bad idea. Plus, you should be just as concerned (if not more so) about getting to the playoffs than about the playoff rotation, not to mention that the guy who gets bumped from the rotation then potentially becomes a useful reliever. Brian Johnson is not close to a reliable innings eater, the rest of the rotation has a few injury question marks, and the rotation depth behind Johnson gets very sketchy very quickly. I am starting to believe this team doesn't get to the playoffs without another everyday high OBP bat. Like an inverse 2011 - they have the pitching but not enough run production game to game. |
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Post by jmei on Jul 24, 2017 16:05:13 GMT -5
Right, and I think that's a bad way to think about it. You don't need a certain level of offense to win in the playoffs. Plenty of great pitching, good defense, average offense teams have flourished in the playoffs.
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Post by jdb on Jul 24, 2017 17:09:20 GMT -5
I wouldn't be shocked if we heard Pomeranz name come up in the offseason but I don't think you can touch the rotation now.
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Post by Guidas on Jul 25, 2017 11:59:55 GMT -5
Right, and I think that's a bad way to think about it. You don't need a certain level of offense to win in the playoffs. Plenty of great pitching, good defense, average offense teams have flourished in the playoffs. I agree with the latter, and if the playoffs were next week, I would actually be confident, esp with the couple games bye before they get going if Sox win division. It's getting there I'm worried about. |
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Post by jodyreidnichols on Jul 25, 2017 21:30:13 GMT -5
I wouldn't be shocked if we heard Pomeranz name come up in the offseason but I don't think you can touch the rotation now. The Sox clearly are all in the next few seasons. You have to get to the post season in order to be in it to win it. And a SP rotation that gives you a solid chance to win any given game goes a long way towards making that happen. So what advantage would the Sox have in trading what has been their second best starter this year? The Sox, should they make the postseason, because of their rotation would have to be considered as one of a few teams to be a favorite to win it all. Do you believe they need another hitter? What position do you think they would upgrade and would they not be better off pursuing that need through the free agent market? I think you have to answer the last few questions before considering trading one of our starting pitchers. And finally if you are suggesting trading a player to make it a worthwhile conversation then you should suggest who you think we'd get back. When a suggestion is so wide open it's hard to have a real conversation about it. |
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Post by jodyreidnichols on Jul 25, 2017 21:41:50 GMT -5
Right, and I think that's a bad way to think about it. You don't need a certain level of offense to win in the playoffs. Plenty of great pitching, good defense, average offense teams have flourished in the playoffs. I agree with the latter, and if the playoffs were next week, I would actually be confident, esp with the couple games bye before they get going if Sox win division. It's getting there I'm worried about. I don't think it's wise to make a snap judgement of how the team has played the past few days. Perhaps you are not doing that but many fans do. Even if you are not doing that, I ask you which teams are knocking us out of the playoffs? Often fans of a team only see their own teams blemishes and that clouds their narrow perspective (especially when they are currently playing flawed ball). But when asked to suggest who realistically is better (and expand on their perspective) often have trouble responding. This team has had many issues with sickness and injuries and only more recently has been healthy. The starting rotation, finally healthy, will go ALONG way in making the post season a very realistic scenario. The offense doesn't even need to be better but more consistent. April's stats have tarnished many fans views regarding the teams offense. With all the sickness running through the clubhouse in April, I for one will give the team's offense a pass for April |
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Post by Guidas on Jul 25, 2017 22:45:41 GMT -5
I wouldn't be shocked if we heard Pomeranz name come up in the offseason but I don't think you can touch the rotation now. The Sox clearly are all in the next few seasons. You have to get to the post season in order to be in it to win it. And a SP rotation that gives you a solid chance to win any given game goes a long way towards making that happen. So what advantage would the Sox have in trading what has been their second best starter this year? The Sox, should they make the postseason, because of their rotation would have to be considered as one of a few teams to be a favorite to win it all. Do you believe they need another hitter? What position do you think they would upgrade and would they not be better off pursuing that need through the free agent market? I think you have to answer the last few questions before considering trading one of our starting pitchers. And finally if you are suggesting trading a player to make it a worthwhile conversation then you should suggest who you think we'd get back. When a suggestion is so wide open it's hard to have a real conversation about it. First base, 3rd and C are where the needs could most readily be identified. Easiest may be 1st to fill. Catcher is the last place of the three I'd go, as you'll likely get the least amount of overall offensive contribution from there. All the best 3rd basemen are on playoff teams, and only two of those really need pitching - DC and COL. Can't see DC giving up theirs, or Col giving up Aranado. |
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Post by Guidas on Jul 25, 2017 22:47:13 GMT -5
I agree with the latter, and if the playoffs were next week, I would actually be confident, esp with the couple games bye before they get going if Sox win division. It's getting there I'm worried about. I don't think it's wise to make a snap judgement of how the team has played the past few days. Perhaps you are not doing that but many fans do. Even if you are not doing that, I ask you which teams are knocking us out of the playoffs? Often fans of a team only see their own teams blemishes and that clouds their narrow perspective (especially when they are currently playing flawed ball). But when asked to suggest who realistically is better (and expand on their perspective) often have trouble responding. This team has had many issues with sickness and injuries and only more recently has been healthy. The starting rotation, finally healthy, will go ALONG way in making the post season a very realistic scenario. The offense doesn't even need to be better but more consistent. April's stats have tarnished many fans views regarding the teams offense. With all the sickness running through the clubhouse in April, I for one will give the team's offense a pass for April Define "past few days'? If you define it like I am, last 18 games, I'd say that's more than 10% of the season. A definitive sample, maybe not, but it's enough for a fair argument. |
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Post by jodyreidnichols on Jul 26, 2017 5:51:14 GMT -5
I don't think it's wise to make a snap judgement of how the team has played the past few days. Perhaps you are not doing that but many fans do. Even if you are not doing that, I ask you which teams are knocking us out of the playoffs? Often fans of a team only see their own teams blemishes and that clouds their narrow perspective (especially when they are currently playing flawed ball). But when asked to suggest who realistically is better (and expand on their perspective) often have trouble responding. This team has had many issues with sickness and injuries and only more recently has been healthy. The starting rotation, finally healthy, will go ALONG way in making the post season a very realistic scenario. The offense doesn't even need to be better but more consistent. April's stats have tarnished many fans views regarding the teams offense. With all the sickness running through the clubhouse in April, I for one will give the team's offense a pass for April Define "past few days'? If you define it like I am, last 18 games, I'd say that's more than 10% of the season. A definitive sample, maybe not, but it's enough for a fair argument. I'm just never a fan of judging a team when it's playing very well or poorly as it will skew your perception. This team hasn't played it's best yet we have seen stretches where it had the best record in the game. The team is finally getting healthy and has added reinforcements, Smith had some encouraging news recently, Kelley is returning soon too. The pen a surprising strength with all the injuries we've had has been the problem of late. Basically I'm seeing reason for optimism. |
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Post by jdb on Jul 26, 2017 7:03:30 GMT -5
I wouldn't be shocked if we heard Pomeranz name come up in the offseason but I don't think you can touch the rotation now. The Sox clearly are all in the next few seasons. You have to get to the post season in order to be in it to win it. And a SP rotation that gives you a solid chance to win any given game goes a long way towards making that happen. So what advantage would the Sox have in trading what has been their second best starter this year? The Sox, should they make the postseason, because of their rotation would have to be considered as one of a few teams to be a favorite to win it all. Do you believe they need another hitter? What position do you think they would upgrade and would they not be better off pursuing that need through the free agent market? I think you have to answer the last few questions before considering trading one of our starting pitchers. And finally if you are suggesting trading a player to make it a worthwhile conversation then you should suggest who you think we'd get back. When a suggestion is so wide open it's hard to have a real conversation about it. I wish I knew but Dom has shown a willingness to deal guys with 1 year left before. It was said he didn't want to give Porcello a long term deal so he went and upgraded his lineup. We have Wright and Johnson that could battle it out for the 5th spot and we could get a 1B/DH/C from Pomeranz or maybe use his money to sign a Hosmer or JD Martinez and get some prospects. Maybe a higher end starter since we don't have a lot in the upper minors. |
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