|
|
Post by jimed14 on Aug 21, 2017 21:26:50 GMT -5
I want a full blown argument about how great he has been at handling the bullpen this year.
I do not care what the Red Sox record is. They would have 3-4 wins more minimum with an average manager this season. I do not care that he won a WS in 2013. He's not going to win one this year by being as dumb as he has been. The Red Sox' ONLY hope is that the front office puts him on a strict stats-only decision making process where the stats are fed to him.
|
|
|
|
Post by soxfan511 on Aug 21, 2017 22:03:35 GMT -5
The save stat cost him another win. Put kimbrel out in the 8th against the heart of their lineup, and have workman in the 9th against bottom of the order.
|
|
|
|
Post by grandsalami on Aug 21, 2017 22:08:19 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by dirtdog on Aug 21, 2017 22:36:05 GMT -5
I am not a Farrell supporter, never really have been. This is probably wishful thinking on my part but I am hoping for a meaningful contribution for the playoffs from Carson Smith. Reed might be rounding into form but the only one in the bullpen I have an faith in is Kimbrel.
|
|
|
|
Post by Don Caballero on Aug 21, 2017 22:42:44 GMT -5
The Red Sox have the third best bullpen ERA in the Martin Luther Baseball (which I assue it's what MLB stands for). Look at the talent they put out there and honestly ask yourselves, should they be performing better?
|
|
|
|
Post by James Dunne on Aug 21, 2017 22:55:00 GMT -5
Farrell is too long with his hook because of an outmoded belief that innings belong to his pitcher rather than the team; his players run into far too many outs, to the level where it's a top-down problem with the team's culture; his overuse of Junichi Tazawa is infuriating.
Other problems I have with Farrell are with modern managing in general, which makes it more difficult to be mad at. I'd use Kimbrel more aggressively, at least in theory - but it's hard to think of a manager who has a closer who his manager is more aggressive with. Replacing Farrell won't change the way that closers are taught to think of the ninth inning as theirs and that pitching in non-save-situations is less worthy of their work.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2017 6:56:35 GMT -5
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2017 6:57:52 GMT -5
Why doesn't Farrell seem to pay attention to the home/road splits of Barnes and Scott?
|
|
|
|
Post by James Dunne on Aug 22, 2017 7:00:34 GMT -5
Why doesn't Farrell seem to pay attention to the home/road splits of Barnes and Scott? Robby Scott had faced exactly 29 batters in road games heading into last night. He ignored a statistically insignifcant split, and Scott struck out both batters he faced. Paying attention to splits rather than matchups in that situation is what a bad manager would do. |
|
|
|
Post by Chris Hatfield on Aug 22, 2017 9:40:21 GMT -5
I have changed the title of this thread so that it's a discussion of the Red Sox' bullpen management.
This is not the message board for blowing off steam and yelling at people. I know we let things go in the gameday threads sometimes because those are meant to be a real-time conversation about the game as it's occurring. But that will not carry over into the rest of the Forum.
Intelligent conversation on the subject is welcome. Ranting and raving not so much. Posts fitting the latter will be deleted from here on out. Thanks.
|
|
|
|
Post by danredhawk on Aug 22, 2017 9:46:37 GMT -5
Farrell's bullpen management is very suspect - and it absolutely does cost the team chances to win games with how he handles the pen among other things (like apparently convincing the team that running into three outs is worth it if the aggressive style pays off the fourth time). Just reading his post-game quotes regarding last night's pen management indicates that managing a bullpen is a real weakness AND that he is still under the impression that he can just punt away some games because there is always another. Last night you had a bird in the hand that he threw away, because he was worried about winning tonight and tomorrow... "(If) I use Kimbrel tonight, (he'll) need...one, if not two days off," Farrell said. "That's why you need contributions from everyone else." - So because Kimbrel might have needed a day off today had he pitched, Farrell decided to hold him out of a game where the Red Sox needed him desperately to save him for a game they may not need to use him anyway (because baseball - today could easily be 7-1 either way). This has happened a few times this season. Kimbrel has not been pitched in big moments to save him for the next few games. Games which turned into lopsided wins or losses. As a result, Kimbrel then goes a few games without throwing, pitches in a low-leverage situation and is then again unavailable when needed. Its an interesting strategy with the games' best reliever... "I know there is this overriding thought that you can just drop Craig Kimbrel in anywhere from the sixth to the ninth inning," Farrell said Friday. "And with all due respect, theres a lot more that goes into it than that. We've used Craig for four outs or more this year. There's a willingness to do that." With all due respect John, why do you think that Kimbrel needs to finish every game he enters? He doesn't need to pitch four outs or more. He needs to pitch when it counts! Put him in in the eighth when Barnes implodes and Cleveland never ties the game. Then someone else can close out the game. Pitch him in the ninth and you at least buy yourself another at bat. You have the perfect example of how to leverage a reliever - and to not focus on saves/games finished or other useless statistics - staring you in the face from across the field. I mean, that's three times in the last week or so that the Sox have lost a close game where Kimbrel hasn't left the pen? If you don't think were going to see a critical post-season loss at this point where Kimbrel isn't used and/or the Red Sox lose runs on the bases...  The reality is he hurts the team, its evidenced in his performance in TOR, his two last place finishes in Boston and hindering team performance the past two years. He manages more towards making his players comfortable and confident and less towards winning games. This is why you see Holt hitting second, because heaven forbid we move players into different line-up spots. Its why he's so rigid at times with relievers. Its one thing to do this early in the season (though I don't agree with it then either) and another to do it late in the season when the race is on... |
|
nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,907
|
Post by nomar on Aug 22, 2017 9:47:00 GMT -5
Barnes is messed up. Abad is just as good as him at the moment if not better.
I want to see Beeks up soon to see how he looks out of the pen. Hopefully Smith comes back strong too.
|
|
|
|
Post by mandelbro on Aug 22, 2017 9:59:06 GMT -5
I'm having a hard time with the idea that Matt Barnes is a demonstrably worse option than Brandon Workman.
Barnes has been a fairly average-to-good reliever this year. 3.60/3.20/3.41 ERA/FIP/xFIP even after last night's debacle. Workman's coming off a nice 10 innings or so but why are people so sure he's better than Barnes?
|
|
|
|
Post by danredhawk on Aug 22, 2017 10:06:52 GMT -5
I'm having a hard time with the idea that Matt Barnes is a demonstrably worse option than Brandon Workman. Barnes has been a fairly average-to-good reliever this year. 3.60/3.20/3.41 ERA/FIP/xFIP even after last night's debacle. Workman's coming off a nice 10 innings or so but why are people so sure he's better than Barnes? The problem with Barnes is that when he enters the game I can usually tell within one or two pitches what he's going to give the team that night (which means its probably pretty apparent in the bullpen too??), yet Farrell insists on giving him opportunities to try to fight his way out of it in the middle of high leverage innings and situations. That is likely because he wants Barnes to feel good about himself and not get pulled shortly after entering. Unfortunately, the team can't afford that right now. If Barnes cant find the zone, get him out immediately and manage for the win. If Barnes doesn't like that, he can pitch better or more consistently. Its August, its time to focus on the team not the individuals... |
|
|
|
Post by mandelbro on Aug 22, 2017 10:21:32 GMT -5
I'm having a hard time with the idea that Matt Barnes is a demonstrably worse option than Brandon Workman. Barnes has been a fairly average-to-good reliever this year. 3.60/3.20/3.41 ERA/FIP/xFIP even after last night's debacle. Workman's coming off a nice 10 innings or so but why are people so sure he's better than Barnes? The problem with Barnes is that when he enters the game I can usually tell within one or two pitches what he's going to give the team that night (which means its probably pretty apparent in the bullpen too??), yet Farrell insists on giving him opportunities to try to fight his way out of it in the middle of high leverage innings and situations. That is likely because he wants Barnes to feel good about himself and not get pulled shortly after entering. Unfortunately, the team can't afford that right now. If Barnes cant find the zone, get him out immediately and manage for the win. If Barnes doesn't like that, he can pitch better or more consistently. Its August, its time to focus on the team not the individuals... I know what you mean. It's maddening watching Barnes throw noncompetitive 1st and 2nd pitches out there. My problem is this - I'm not ready to buy on Workman as a true talent late inning reliever. He came up big in a few PA here and there in 2013, but overall he wasn't particularly good in either 2013 or 2014. He didn't have great stuff before or great results. Did he really become a whole different pitcher over his rehab? |
|
|
|
Post by soxfansince67 on Aug 22, 2017 10:26:24 GMT -5
I've seen mentioned here and there that the splits of relief pitchers are not useful - I disagree. Because relief pitchers by definition are going to have far less innings pitched, then those innings become more meaningful. Barnes home/away splits are poor - and he admits it, and Farrell himself admits it.
After cooling off from last night's very emotional game, factoring in Reed's apparent non-availability, Farrell obviously felt painted into a corner - he wanted to avoid Workman - but in the end, couldn't.
We are all armchair quarterbacks (I know, this baseball, not football), hindsight is golden, etc etc. If last night was a one off for Farrell, that would be one thing - but this has been a pattern all year - stating his strategy (naming his 7/8 bridge), then suddenly he moves off of it.
Certainly baffling. If the offense was really clicking, we may not even be talking about this - certainly there have been three bad losses the past few weeks due to squanders, poor situational hitting, key hitters in slumps.
The next thread probably should be about Farrell's skill at constructing a line up - but yes, that is off topic...let's work this one through.
I wanted to go back and see Barnes' splits for the last few years.
2017 so far - home 5-1, 32 IP, 8 BB, 41K, .203 ave against, 1.95
away 1-2, 27 IP, 19 BB, 25K, .219 ave against, 5.53 . What is interesting is that he is not more easily hit on the road - it is command - it is the lead off walk that is killing him.
2016 - reversed - he is better away than at home
2015 - smaller sample size - dramatically reversed - he was a disaster at home
The modified windup is simply not working on the road. Or it is just something in his head. or...or...or...
|
|
|
|
Post by jerrygarciaparra on Aug 22, 2017 10:46:13 GMT -5
i don't see how you could realistically put a quantifiable amount of games he has lost or won with his bullpen mgt. Most folks who follow baseball, know who the really good ones are, then there are the rest. He certainly has adapted his way of doing things this year with traditional closer use, and usage patterns.
With all that said, he will probably never be the best at it. I think bullpem mgt is, ostensibly, voodoo science. It is awful easy to argue that something was the wrong decision, when you will never be able to prove any other decision was the right one (because the option will never play out in the field). If a mgt has performing bullpen pieces, he is a genius. That really says it all.
|
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Aug 22, 2017 11:41:18 GMT -5
Bullpen management is the most important issue in the playoffs.
It wasn't so much Barnes last night as it was Hembree with runners on 1st and 2nd and no outs in the 8th. Even though he struck him out, Jose Ramirez has a 137 wRC+ vs RHP this year and Hembree has allowed a .366 wOBA to LHB. That the lead was lost was the most obvious thing that has ever happened this year.
Hembree just has no business pitching there in such a high leverage situation, regardless of whatever tiny sample size stat Farrell had that told him it was the right move.
|
|
