SoxProspects News
|
|
|
|
Legal
Forum Ground Rules
The views expressed by the members of this Forum do not necessarily reflect the views of SoxProspects, LLC.
© 2003-2024 SoxProspects, LLC
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home | Search | My Profile | Messages | Members | Help |
Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
|
Post by artfuldodger on Mar 1, 2018 8:06:31 GMT -5
There is a general assumption that the Red Sox will hold the remaining money under the “hard” cap in case they need/want to make a deadline deal. However, should the team look into using a portion now? If so, who would make sense? The Red Sox can free additional money by releasing León and/or Holt?
|
|
redsox04071318champs
Veteran
Always hoping to make my handle even longer...
Posts: 15,654
Member is Online
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Mar 1, 2018 9:06:54 GMT -5
Unless there's a major bargain (for the bullpen) to be had, they're better off waiting to see what they need come July 31st. Injuries happen. Unanticipated downturns in productivity happen - ie. remember the Sox signing Tony Clark in 2002 thinking he'd be able to bop 30 homers for them? Instead he was so bad he was below replacement level. That kind of thing.
Better to have the flexibility to assess what you need when you need it versus having nothing left to spend in July when the problems are more obvious.
Besides in July you open up talent from expiring contracts via trades, guys who are not free agents at the moment, which increases your possibilities of fixing what ails you when it's later in the season.
The Sox will stand pat for now. Dombrowski has said as much.
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Mar 1, 2018 9:13:52 GMT -5
I'd still take Koji for 1/$5M and trade Hembree or Workman.
|
|
redsox04071318champs
Veteran
Always hoping to make my handle even longer...
Posts: 15,654
Member is Online
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Mar 1, 2018 11:33:22 GMT -5
I'd still take Koji for 1/$5M and trade Hembree or Workman. You might get Koji for less than half of that. I wouldn't dump Workman though - he does have options. I would get rid of Hembree and not think twice. I would not spend $5 million on Koji. That would put them right at the cap with no space to do anything in July. I'd pay him $2 million maybe - but would prefer $1 million with incentives to bring it up to $2 million, but keep in mind that Koji is nowhere near what he was and he doesn't have a ton of margin for error.
|
|
|
Post by Chris Hatfield on Mar 1, 2018 11:51:14 GMT -5
Uehara was still an above-average pitcher last year... when he pitched. He's a 42 yo who last broke 50 IP in 2014. Considering the deals being given out, I'd take him on a minor league deal with an opt-out but nothing else.
In general, that's really all I'd give anyone at this point short of moving one of the huge contracts like Porcello or Hanley. Holland kind of terrifies me as a guy who pitched for a team that just went all-out on building its bullpen this offseason, which team declined to bring him back. Did the Rockies think his elbow is going to explode again? Also, he wasn't as good last year as you might think - he still walked 4 per 9 and allowed more than a baserunner per inning. He's just going to hold out for a huge contract because he struck a lot of guys out at the end of games they won by 3 or fewer runs and there's a stat for that, and he did that more than anyone else in baseball. He strikes me as poor value.
|
|
|
Post by Oregon Norm on Mar 1, 2018 12:17:33 GMT -5
The Sox are well-stocked, overstocked really, in right handed relief pitchers. The commodity is over-priced, and they have enough talent going forward - more than enough once Thornburg shows up and he seems to be making good progress. The idea behind picking up expensive players who are largely redundant escapes me. It's a lousy use of resources for a team that doesn't need it. They might be able to make use of another left-handed specialist, and they seem to be rooting around for just that. But why blow your cash on someone you don't need? Just because the guy is out there? That doesn't make any sense.
|
|
|
Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 1, 2018 17:06:53 GMT -5
Greg Holland numbers look worse than they were. Cut his index finger on his throwing hand on Aug 3rd while doing something in his Kitchen. Era was 1.6, over like next 3 weeks it goes to 4.05, then he has a great September. Gave up 40 hits in 57 plus innings, 12 came in August in 9 plus innings.. August was his worst strikeout to walk month also. Second year after Tommy John is normally when they get fully back isn't ? We have a ton of righty bullpen arms, only one is a guy that I fully trust to be good. Tons of question marks. I see Holland as a 2 war type reliever, that's a huge upgrade over Hembree. Not going to happen, but it could make sense. The Red Sox though will not likely be the first team to blow past 237 and get the pick moved back. I just think they should, go for it, while everyone else is watching every penny. You also got 50 million extra this year.
|
|
|
Post by pedrofanforever45 on Mar 1, 2018 17:42:53 GMT -5
Greg Holland numbers look worse than they were. Cut his index finger on his throwing hand on Aug 3rd while doing something in his Kitchen. Era was 1.6, over like next 3 weeks it goes to 4.05, then he has a great September. Gave up 40 hits in 57 plus innings, 12 came in August in 9 plus innings.. August was his worst strikeout to walk month also. Second year after Tommy John is normally when they get fully back isn't ? We have a ton of righty bullpen arms, only one is a guy that I fully trust to be good. Tons of question marks. I see Holland as a 2 war type reliever, that's a huge upgrade over Hembree. Not going to happen, but it could make sense. The Red Sox though will not likely be the first team to blow past 237 and get the pick moved back. I just think they should, go for it, while everyone else is watching every penny. You also got 50 million extra this year. The Sox have already added 35 million dollars on top of their payroll from last year, and that doesn't even include the tax hit they're going to get for blowing past the luxury tax threshold. They shouldn't go past the 237 unless the team loses a big arm in the middle of the year like Price or Sale to injury. It isn't worth it. The Sox have plenty of bullpen depth if one or multiple guys fail out of the bullpen.
|
|
|
Post by Chris Hatfield on Mar 1, 2018 18:11:32 GMT -5
Greg Holland numbers look worse than they were. Cut his index finger on his throwing hand on Aug 3rd while doing something in his Kitchen. Era was 1.6, over like next 3 weeks it goes to 4.05, then he has a great September. Gave up 40 hits in 57 plus innings, 12 came in August in 9 plus innings.. August was his worst strikeout to walk month also. Second year after Tommy John is normally when they get fully back isn't ? We have a ton of righty bullpen arms, only one is a guy that I fully trust to be good. Tons of question marks. I see Holland as a 2 war type reliever, that's a huge upgrade over Hembree. Not going to happen, but it could make sense. The Red Sox though will not likely be the first team to blow past 237 and get the pick moved back. I just think they should, go for it, while everyone else is watching every penny. You also got 50 million extra this year. Interesting. So it looks like he cut it on August 1 (the Tuesday he was unavailable), per this article: www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/20231228/colorado-rockies-closer-greg-holland-cuts-index-finger-kitchen-accidentThrough July: 38.1 IP, 22 H, 7 R, 18 BB, 50 K. .169/.268/.262. .253 BABIP. 4.23 BB/9. 11.74 K/9 Aug-Sept: 19.0 IP, 18 H, 17 R (16 ER), 8 BB, 20 K. .234/.314/.468. .250 BABIP. 3.79 BB/9. 9.47 K/9 Breaking that last bit down by month: Aug: 9.1 IP, 14 H, 14 R, 6 BB, 8 K. .333/.429/.667. .333 BABIP. 5.79 BB/9. 7.71 K/9 Sept: 9.2 IP, 4 H, 3 R (2 ER), 2 BB, 12 K. .114/.162/.229. .136 BABIP. 1.86 BB/9. 11.17 K/9. So I'm not necessarily buying the control piece. If you look at his monthly splits, it looks like it came and went as the season went along - good months in May and September, awful months in June and August, subpar but not terrible in April and July. June was actually his worst control month, it's just that he was also striking guys out. That said, August was the only month he got hit very hard. If you dig deeper, he basically had two stretches of walking guys: 9 in 10 innings from May 21 to June 20, and 6 in 4 innings from August 8-23. Given that his first two outings after the finger thing were fine, I'm not inclined to give that much credit for his August. I'll concede that I probably wasn't giving him enough credit. The problem is that I can't see him taking a small contract, and I'm not sure Greg Holland now is the guy that I move back 10 spots to get. In a world where, say, Joe Smith gets 2/15M, Holland's not settling for 1/5. I've got to think he's going to require at least a 9M AAV, and he's going to prefer a closer role. Let's be honest - a team like the Angels (seriously how have they not signed him yet?) is going to pay him.
|
|
|
Post by telson13 on Mar 2, 2018 0:01:07 GMT -5
Greg Holland numbers look worse than they were. Cut his index finger on his throwing hand on Aug 3rd while doing something in his Kitchen. Era was 1.6, over like next 3 weeks it goes to 4.05, then he has a great September. Gave up 40 hits in 57 plus innings, 12 came in August in 9 plus innings.. August was his worst strikeout to walk month also. Second year after Tommy John is normally when they get fully back isn't ? We have a ton of righty bullpen arms, only one is a guy that I fully trust to be good. Tons of question marks. I see Holland as a 2 war type reliever, that's a huge upgrade over Hembree. Not going to happen, but it could make sense. The Red Sox though will not likely be the first team to blow past 237 and get the pick moved back. I just think they should, go for it, while everyone else is watching every penny. You also got 50 million extra this year. I kind of see things along the same lines. I think Holland had identifiable reasons for his period of underperformance beyond the scope of the field. He provides a second very good to potentially outstanding arm. He would help shorten games and take some stress off of the starters, who either wear down (Sale), are coming off of injury (Price, Rodriguez, and Wright), are durable but unpredictable in performance (Porcello), or very good but inefficient (Pomeranz). I agree that it’s unlikely, but I think he’d be a great addition. My biggest reason for taking a shot on him (and I think you’re dead-on in terms of the money/go for it attitude; dropping from pick 25 to 35 isn’t catastrophic to me, although there’s the bonus alottment issue to consider) is that RHRP *are* overvalued. There’s a clear overexpenditure history in recent years on deadline closers. So unless he really struggles, the Sox can flip him for likely a top-50 prospect and another quality young player in the 150 range, plus maybe a lottery ticket, depending on how he’s performing, and how deep the rest of the ‘pen looks. He provides first-half insurance for Smith and Thornburg, and if they look good, he can readily be moved. If not, he's a key asset for the playoffs. Workman can be stashed and Maddox given a little time to prove himself in AAA. I think Hembree’s underrated and underperformed his peripherals in some ways last year, but in lieu of moving Holland, he or Kelly (who’s got control left too) would be an attractive big arm for a team needing one that’s maybe reticent to give up much for a 3-month rental. On an incentive-laden 1+1 option, Holland would also provide Kimbrel insurance/bargaining position strength over the winter. Idk, I really don’t like the idea of going over the $237M cap, but maybe they get creative and shed some salary (Porcello? Maybe Hanley?) now or at the deadline. Or maybe they bite the bullet figuring they’re in an all-or-nothing position. I do think that there’s a clear precedent for the value of further strengthening an area of depth (Cashman’s trade for Chapman) as a means to stock your minor league system.
|
|
|
Post by telson13 on Mar 2, 2018 0:13:58 GMT -5
Greg Holland numbers look worse than they were. Cut his index finger on his throwing hand on Aug 3rd while doing something in his Kitchen. Era was 1.6, over like next 3 weeks it goes to 4.05, then he has a great September. Gave up 40 hits in 57 plus innings, 12 came in August in 9 plus innings.. August was his worst strikeout to walk month also. Second year after Tommy John is normally when they get fully back isn't ? We have a ton of righty bullpen arms, only one is a guy that I fully trust to be good. Tons of question marks. I see Holland as a 2 war type reliever, that's a huge upgrade over Hembree. Not going to happen, but it could make sense. The Red Sox though will not likely be the first team to blow past 237 and get the pick moved back. I just think they should, go for it, while everyone else is watching every penny. You also got 50 million extra this year. Interesting. So it looks like he cut it on August 1 (the Tuesday he was unavailable), per this article: www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/20231228/colorado-rockies-closer-greg-holland-cuts-index-finger-kitchen-accidentThrough July: 38.1 IP, 22 H, 7 R, 18 BB, 50 K. .169/.268/.262. .253 BABIP. 4.23 BB/9. 11.74 K/9 Aug-Sept: 19.0 IP, 18 H, 17 R (16 ER), 8 BB, 20 K. .234/.314/.468. .250 BABIP. 3.79 BB/9. 9.47 K/9 Breaking that last bit down by month: Aug: 9.1 IP, 14 H, 14 R, 6 BB, 8 K. .333/.429/.667. .333 BABIP. 5.79 BB/9. 7.71 K/9 Sept: 9.2 IP, 4 H, 3 R (2 ER), 2 BB, 12 K. .114/.162/.229. .136 BABIP. 1.86 BB/9. 11.17 K/9. So I'm not necessarily buying the control piece. If you look at his monthly splits, it looks like it came and went as the season went along - good months in May and September, awful months in June and August, subpar but not terrible in April and July. June was actually his worst control month, it's just that he was also striking guys out. That said, August was the only month he got hit very hard. If you dig deeper, he basically had two stretches of walking guys: 9 in 10 innings from May 21 to June 20, and 6 in 4 innings from August 8-23. Given that his first two outings after the finger thing were fine, I'm not inclined to give that much credit for his August. I'll concede that I probably wasn't giving him enough credit. The problem is that I can't see him taking a small contract, and I'm not sure Greg Holland now is the guy that I move back 10 spots to get. In a world where, say, Joe Smith gets 2/15M, Holland's not settling for 1/5. I've got to think he's going to require at least a 9M AAV, and he's going to prefer a closer role. Let's be honest - a team like the Angels (seriously how have they not signed him yet?) is going to pay him. One potential confounder there is that he’s coming off of TJ, and his feel might reasonably be expected to be rusty. I’m not sure you can extrapolate his control issues into the future. Again, you might lose 10 spots, but a 1st-rd pick in the mid-20s isn’t top-150 among all prospects (and the 25 to 35 drop is really negligible as compared to, say, 12 to 22), and it’s very reasonable to think that they could get at least both a top-100 and top-200 players in return at the deadline if he’s pitching like he did last year, with a good chance for better return. But yeah...how the Angels haven’t picked him up confuses me...they’re exactly at the peak point of the value curve for WAR. A win or two either way will probably be the playoffs or not deciding factor.
|
|
|
Post by pedrofanforever45 on Mar 2, 2018 0:16:12 GMT -5
Trading Porcello probably makes you worse unless you sign Cobb, and then you're wasting draft picks tied to compensation. No one is taking Hanley.
I'm all against a Holland signing. You have 4 arms that are capable of setting up Kimbrel very soon in Thornburg, Barnes, Kelly, and Smith. Even if half of those arms don't pan out (due ineffectiveness or injury), you're still in great shape and still have two other options there.
You have 5 million to spend at the deadline for a reliever if worst comes to worst and no one steps up in the majors or minors in that time to set up Kimbrel.
|
|
|
Post by pedrofanforever45 on Mar 2, 2018 1:33:01 GMT -5
Another thing that people keep forgetting that with Holland is that he also has the qualifying offer attached to him.
Not only are you losing 10 spots in the first round, but you'd also be losing a 2nd and a 5th round pick, or a third round pick if you got him for cheap.
The only (almost impossible) scenario where it makes sense to sign Holland is if the price tag drops to epic degrees and he's still available after the draft this year.
You're losing 1 or 2 draft picks and your losing value in the first round, all because you don't trust your depth in the bullpen.
Holland literally makes no sense for this team.
|
|
|
Post by pedrofanforever45 on Mar 2, 2018 3:25:38 GMT -5
Holland kind of terrifies me as a guy who pitched for a team that just went all-out on building its bullpen this offseason, which team declined to bring him back. FWIW, the Rockies offered Holland the same deal as Davis (or close to it) before they moved on to Davis. Holland turned that offer down. At least that is what's being reported- www.mlbtraderumors.com/2018/03/market-notes-upton-archer-realmuto-holland-lynn.html
|
|
|
Post by pedrofanforever45 on Mar 2, 2018 3:33:29 GMT -5
What the Sox should have done if they wanted a reliever this off-season, they should have resigned Reed with what the Twins just gave him.
You could have signed a Duda for 3.5 million (which is what he just got from the Royals). You could have played Moreland off of the Duda contract if you wanted Moreland back that badly and preferred him instead of Duda.
You would have been pushing the 237 mark at that point, but you could have marginally cleared room by trading Holt and/or Sandy Leon to get yourself back under the 237 mark.
The Sox really jumped the Mitch Moreland gun for no reason. Duda literally just got a 1/3 of what Moreland got and they are similar players.
It's all water under the bridge now however.
|
|
|