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Post by jimed14 on Feb 13, 2019 8:03:40 GMT -5
It's kind of hard to make a definitive decision when Kyrie seems to play better on the road than at home. They have ridiculous record at home without him, but are better on the road with him.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Feb 13, 2019 8:15:30 GMT -5
The team is unquestionably better with Kyrie on this team, this team has been also unquestionably inconsistent no matter who has been on the floor for them.
A lot of it is development from guys like Rozier, Brown, and Tatum. Other factors have been from Baynes, Horford, Hayward coming back from injuries or being out with injuries.
Everyone wants to point the finger at Kyrie when they play well without him. It's completely unwarranted. This team is worse without him. Maybe a couple of wins worse.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 13, 2019 8:25:34 GMT -5
When he's healthy, why not let Hayward run the point? That's basically what he did in Utah. Didn’t they try this against the Clippers and it basically cost them the game?
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 13, 2019 8:29:18 GMT -5
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Feb 13, 2019 8:41:47 GMT -5
Kyrie gets you star power in Boston. You make a argument to get rid of him, then you're basically saying that you aren't getting stars here for the next few years. How is that going to make you better? Please tell me.
You're not winning anything without stars.
You want to tell me that you want to get rid of Kyrie and replace him with Leonard in the offseason?
Okay I'd easily take that trade. You aren't getting Leonard though or even any other star free agents for that matter. Horford and Hayward was the biggest free agents to sign here before that. The reason why you got Horford is because you're one of the few teams that offered the max for him. You got Hayward because you got his college coach here.
So if you don't sign free agents, the only other course of action is to trade once again for AD, who is friends with Kyrie. You keep Kyrie, you have a better chance of maybe extending AD in the future.
Add- Give Stevens the credit for making this team better when Kyrie is out.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 13, 2019 8:46:45 GMT -5
The fact is no matter who’s playing from here on out or in the playoffs the results will end the same. Home court matters in the NBA playoffs and they aren’t going to have that. So they are going to bow out in the first or second round of the playoffs and everyone will say “see last years team was better because they went deeper” when the reality is the East is way better this year and the seeding is the problem.
The other fact is, they had the best record in the East last year before Kyrie got injured so to keep acting like they are dysfunctional with him and some juggernaut without is pretty disingenuous. If you want to say they’ve been more consistent as a group without him this year then you can do that, but honestly what does that mean? The Celtics at their best without Kyrie isn’t winning shit other than maybe and Eastern Conference finals APPEARANCE. The Celtics at their best with Kyrie is a finals team and maybe even a finals winner. If you want to say they are more likely to be at their best without him than with him then that’s fine, but who really cares if you have a limited ceiling? Whether you like it or not they need Kyrie to be the team we all want them to be.
Stevens was dealt a tough hand with the Hayward injury situation. He needs and needed time to get back to himself, but Brad also screwed the pooch and his inexperience with a deep talented roster has been clear as day to see. He’s trying to please too many people and as a result hasn’t pleased anyone and could ultimately be the reason they lose Kyrie and their long term plan goes up in smoke.
People can debate all the want but the reality is the only chance of a true winner is with Kyrie. Sadly, it’s not happening this year and even sadder is the fact that if Kyrie walks this team becomes, at best the Isaiah Celtics with no high picks coming and no cap space on the horizon.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Feb 13, 2019 9:12:44 GMT -5
The Celtics should have traded Morris before the year started. The article JimEd posted how the players got more minutes and were successful because of it. A guy like Morris is sucking up a lot of those minutes and his role on this team is completely redundant, even if he played well to start the season. At least trade him at the deadline if you wanted reduced minutes for Hayward to start the year.
That was on Danny Ainge for once. Nothing Stevens did could have made that better unless they benched Morris.
Lol, it's going to be a disaster if Kyrie leaves. This team will be a first or second round knockout every year, even if Tatum develops into the next Paul Pierce (which he won't be, because Pierce is/was better).
Remember people, the great Paul Pierce couldn't get no where before KG and Ray Allen showed up. Walker was the best player to play with Pierce (before Allen and KG) because Boston isn't a destination for basketball.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 13, 2019 10:23:35 GMT -5
8-2 6-0, 2-2. 12-11 on the road with Irving, 2-2 without him.
Irving is good enough to win you some road games, heck even in the playoffs. Yet the way he plays so often that can get you some of those wins. Also can cost you home wins.
No reason debating trading him, that ship has sailed. Even if you think they are better off without him you don't want to see him leave for nothing. Resign him and trade him like the Clippers did at worst. Not that I'm even saying to do that.
Yet it kinda points that Irving needs to improve helping his teammates. We see flashes of it, but it always comes and goes. You just can't have him pounding the ball so much. Like go watch the Warriors get open shots from ball movement, no iso play. Go watch Curry score and pass like crazy while dominating the ball like half the time.
It's the perfect experiment about what type of player Irving can become. Everyone loves the guy for his intelligence and outside the box thinking. He has to see the results and numbers right? So is he Melo I'm the star, its you not me, you need to be better? Or he can be the guy that willingly changes because that's what the team needs? Have that LeBron type moment when it becomes crystal clear that no matter how good I am, I can't win without my teammates. No more getting upset when Tatum takes a shot with the game on the line. Replaced by you need to take those shots and I'm going to help you make it happen.
In a lot of ways this is good. Irving missing 10 games gives us this sample. It shows this isn't just last year. There's something here. We want you scoring within the offense more. Take all the shots you want, just less iso.
When Irving plays more off the ball this team looks unstoppable. So in the long run this might be a great thing. He's improving, but he has a long way to go. I truly believe the playoffs are going to be the moment we'll know the answer. Same team game after game, all about adjustments.
This season isn't over and we are 2 games out of third place. Last years team didn't peak till the playoffs and I expect the samething this year.
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Post by soxfansince67 on Feb 13, 2019 10:34:11 GMT -5
I know it is apples and oranges, but I watched Duke last night come back from more than 20 down in the second half and beat Louisville. It was heart and effort. First half they had the post Virginia win hangover, the long flight delay no energy half - couldn't hit anything, no hustle on D.
Whatever flicked the switch - Coach K kicking their ass at half time, or them finally finding their legs - it was remarkable - Cam Reddish nailing threes, but ...the Zion show.
Watching lots of Duke and watching lots of Celtics - like I said, apples and oranges, but there is something about hunger and heart. What Duke showed with 10 minutes left, all thinking them dead in the water, on the road - is the opposite of what the Celtics showed at the end of the Lakers game (a bit), but mostly the Clippers game.
Interesting contrast - a bit of coaching, a bit of heart, a bit of talent - and also, Duke has a short rotation - Coach K doesn't have the decisions to make that Stevens has trying to make all of the egos on the team happy.
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mobaz
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Posts: 2,817
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Post by mobaz on Feb 13, 2019 12:06:17 GMT -5
Brad Stevens has definitely looked a little overmatched this year building a team of stars and budding stars instead of coaching a team of underdogs. The team still shows heart when backs are against the wall (they were underdogs heading into last night's game, for example) but it's not yet Brad's strength to deal with so many veterans.
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Post by texs31 on Feb 13, 2019 12:23:14 GMT -5
Marcus Smart, Jaylen Brown, Al Horford and Gordon Hayward (even if he doesn't get better, which I believe he WILL) would are all better than the 2nd best player on Boston during the pre-BIG3 Celtics.
That wouldn't include a potentially re-signed Rozier, a developing RWill, and whatever you can get from this year's SAC pick (likely 15-20) and the MEM pick.
I also think Tor would be stepping backwards if Leonard moves on. I'm thinking more and more Philly won't sign both Butler/Harris. If they do, that starting 5 better not get hurt. Indiana has some interesting decisions to make. Milwaukee likely won't change as they'll resign Middleton and Bledsoe so that's the team (and a DAMN good one).
Losing Kyrie would be a step back in the process but a disaster?
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wcp3
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Posts: 3,834
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Post by wcp3 on Feb 13, 2019 16:03:39 GMT -5
It’s worth noting the Celtics are something like 2-11 in their last 13 road games without Kyrie, with both of those wins coming against Philly. I’m not even that big of a Kyrie fan, but pointing all the blame at him is outrageous. That's kinda a bull crap stat because to look at that many games your Counting playoff games and every team struggles in playoff games on the road. Nevermind they haven't done that well with Irving this year on the road. So yea if you want to look at games where a young team had to find themselves and the playoffs ok that makes total sense. Do you really think this team right now would have a much worse road record without Irving? I mean they are 14-13 this year. You keep seeing it all year, there isn't a huge drop off without Irving. They are basically the same with or without him. The fact they beat the Sixers without him and Rozier, Smart, and Brown all having off nights is crazy. Some of the worst road loses were with Irving. Irving has missed 10 games so far. They are 8-2 without him, 6-0 at home and 2-2 on the road. That's a little different than your stats no? Nevermind what hasn't been talked about enough is Irving missing 10 games already. No more bull crap than you using one- or two-game sample sizes when Kyrie’s our as “proof” that the Celtics are better without him.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 13, 2019 18:05:56 GMT -5
That's kinda a bull crap stat because to look at that many games your Counting playoff games and every team struggles in playoff games on the road. Nevermind they haven't done that well with Irving this year on the road. So yea if you want to look at games where a young team had to find themselves and the playoffs ok that makes total sense. Do you really think this team right now would have a much worse road record without Irving? I mean they are 14-13 this year. You keep seeing it all year, there isn't a huge drop off without Irving. They are basically the same with or without him. The fact they beat the Sixers without him and Rozier, Smart, and Brown all having off nights is crazy. Some of the worst road loses were with Irving. Irving has missed 10 games so far. They are 8-2 without him, 6-0 at home and 2-2 on the road. That's a little different than your stats no? Nevermind what hasn't been talked about enough is Irving missing 10 games already. No more bull crap than you using one- or two-game sample sizes when Kyrie’s our as “proof” that the Celtics are better without him. I'm not making up numbers and by now its not a small sample size like you make it sound. They are 3-10 in their last 13 road games without Irving, not 2-11 and that includes 8 playoff games where they went 1-7. Overall last year 14-8, 8-3 at home, 6-5 on the road. Playoffs 11-8, 10-1 at home, 1-7 on the road. This year 8-2, 6-0 at home, 2-2 on the road. Overall 33-18, 24-4 at home, 9-14 on the road. No playoffs 22-10, 14-3 at home, 8-7 on the road. I don't think 51 games is a small sample size do you? One stretch is almost a half season.
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wcp3
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Posts: 3,834
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Post by wcp3 on Feb 13, 2019 18:18:06 GMT -5
Oh, my bad - didn’t realize playoff games didn’t count!
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 13, 2019 18:18:31 GMT -5
Marcus Smart, Jaylen Brown, Al Horford and Gordon Hayward (even if he doesn't get better, which I believe he WILL) would are all better than the 2nd best player on Boston during the pre-BIG3 Celtics. That wouldn't include a potentially re-signed Rozier, a developing RWill, and whatever you can get from this year's SAC pick (likely 15-20) and the MEM pick. I also think Tor would be stepping backwards if Leonard moves on. I'm thinking more and more Philly won't sign both Butler/Harris. If they do, that starting 5 better not get hurt. Indiana has some interesting decisions to make. Milwaukee likely won't change as they'll resign Middleton and Bledsoe so that's the team (and a DAMN good one). Losing Kyrie would be a step back in the process but a disaster? I get your point, but that team did have Big Al, Tony Allen, and Rondo.
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Post by texs31 on Feb 13, 2019 18:30:45 GMT -5
1st and 2nd yr versions of those guys were okay but would still take the guys I mentioned over them at that stage of their careers.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 13, 2019 18:34:34 GMT -5
Oh, my bad - didn’t realize playoff games didn’t count! That's like saying LeBron sucks because on the road because he's 1-5 in his last six games. You can't compare regular season vs. playoffs it makes zero sense. The Greek Freak isn't good on the road because he went 0-4 last year. Winning on the road is crazy hard in the playoffs and we have zero data with Irving winning road games with the Celtics in the playoffs. Your comparing Irvings regular season road win versus the Celtics without him in the playoffs on the road. One of the craziest things I've every seen! Acting like there isn't a difference.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 13, 2019 18:51:00 GMT -5
1st and 2nd yr versions of those guys were okay but would still take the guys I mentioned over them at that stage of their careers. You talking as a group or you really think Smart as the 2nd piece is better than Allen, Big Al or Rondo? Yea I'd take the group, yet if were ranking players it's a lot different. Like I'm taking Rondo over Smart, starting next year I'd take Big Al over Horford, heck I'd taken Tony Allen over Smart. I'd have to think about Big Al versus Brown, that one is hard. Big Al put up 16 and 11, with 1.5 blocks at age 22. I'll always wonder how much better he could have been if he did hurt his knee in Minny. He was still good, yet he was never the same as his 23 and 11 season.
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Post by texs31 on Feb 13, 2019 19:47:56 GMT -5
I meant the version of those players that were on the pre Big 3 team.
So Rondo was a 6 ppg, 41% FG backup PG who had a WAR under 3. Allen was Smart without any offense. Al averaged 16 ppg and 11 in his 3rd yr (but had negative WAR in his 1st 2).
They became better but this is a discussion about what Pierce had to work with prior to the Big 3 vs what Tatum would have if Kyrie left. MUCH uglier prior to 07-08.
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Post by texs31 on Feb 13, 2019 19:54:28 GMT -5
Given the above, I'd be willing to push Smart down to 3 compared to 3rd Al.
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Post by soxfansince67 on Feb 13, 2019 22:41:27 GMT -5
Nice win, nice balance across the team. Good to win games we should be winning. nice +26 for Horford.
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Post by Don Caballero on Feb 13, 2019 23:09:51 GMT -5
Hayward looking like himself again more often lately. Bold prediction: If he's 90% the player he was with the Jazz during the playoffs (and Kyrie is healthy), we're going to the Finals and there's nothing any team can do to stop us.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Feb 14, 2019 5:49:30 GMT -5
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Feb 14, 2019 5:54:07 GMT -5
Hayward looking like himself again more often lately. Bold prediction: If he's 90% the player he was with the Jazz during the playoffs (and Kyrie is healthy), we're going to the Finals and there's nothing any team can do to stop us.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 14, 2019 6:51:51 GMT -5
Hayward looking like himself again more often lately. Bold prediction: If he's 90% the player he was with the Jazz during the playoffs (and Kyrie is healthy), we're going to the Finals and there's nothing any team can do to stop us. History of the NBA playoffs says it won’t matter if they are the 4 or 5 seed. They need to at least be the 3 seed to have a chance and even then without a 1 seed upset it’s unlikely they win 2 road series. It’s possible just very unlikely.
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