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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 29, 2019 17:30:33 GMT -5
A year ago Pearce was coming off a replacement level season and is now age 36. There's zero gurantees in Baseball. Yet I'd say the odds of guys like Brach, Wilson, Holland, Madson, heck even Kelley, Sipp, Romo having 1 war seasons or better is rather good. A few of those guys are going to do it. If you signed two of them the odds are rather good. I just have to ask, why is the jump from AAA to the major big for Chavis, yet everyone acts like its nothing for our young pitchers? The question on Chavis are his D, not his bat. Heck in my scenario your only counting on him being a part time player. I just have to laugh because our lone top 100 prospect who is that because of his bat is being treated like he's less of a bet than a guy like Feltman. No one is acting like he can help next year, yet almost everyone expects a guy that hasn't even pitched in AA to be in our bullpen. Pitchers come up all the time and do well immediately. Brasier did, Austin Maddux did the year before. Marcus Walden and Bobby Poyner were serviceable. How many hitters without an elite hit tool do? I'm going to appeal to authority here and say that DDo agrees with me and disagrees with you. He has a lot more information than you do. Going into the season without a platoon 1B to help Moreland would be a crime against humanity. Also, I'm going to bet they are not done yet and will get a decent relief pitcher or two for Swihart. That is your list that you think proves that point? I don't buy your theory for one second. Marco Hernandez, Travis Shaw, Lin, Holt, Swihart, heck Sam Travis hit .263 in his first 33 games. Add that Bogaerts, Benny, Betts, Youk, etc. You wish DD agreed with you! Chavis is a top 100 guy because of his bat.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jan 29, 2019 17:44:45 GMT -5
I understand why the Sox are interested but the guy's a 3 time steroid loser so it'll be hard to root for a guy like that, and it's not like his numbers are overwhelming to begin with. I hope they're not looking at him as a potential closer/high leverage guy. I would usually dump on this signing too, but he had a live arm at one point. It'll be interesting to see what he looks like.
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 29, 2019 18:08:24 GMT -5
Pitchers come up all the time and do well immediately. Brasier did, Austin Maddux did the year before. Marcus Walden and Bobby Poyner were serviceable. How many hitters without an elite hit tool do? I'm going to appeal to authority here and say that DDo agrees with me and disagrees with you. He has a lot more information than you do. Going into the season without a platoon 1B to help Moreland would be a crime against humanity. Also, I'm going to bet they are not done yet and will get a decent relief pitcher or two for Swihart. That is your list that you think proves that point? I don't buy your theory for one second. Marco Hernandez, Travis Shaw, Lin, Holt, Swihart, heck Sam Travis hit .263 in his first 33 games. Add that Bogaerts, Benny, Betts, Youk, etc. You wish DD agreed with you! Chavis is a top 100 guy because of his bat. He freaking signed Pearce and didn't spend on the bullpen. Is there anything that you agree with ever? Sorry, but you're just plain wrong that they should have spent $6 million on two relief pitchers and just winged it without Pearce. Find anyone other than pedrofan that agrees with you.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Jan 29, 2019 19:03:06 GMT -5
I’m of the belief that you build a bullpen by taking a bunch of shit with live arms and throwing it at a wall and then taking what sticks. It’s such a volatile position that it’s not worth throwing millions at relievers who aren’t truly elite. Needless to say I’m a fan of the Mejia signing. I really don’t care about PED use tbh. Besides, he’s done his time
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Post by bluechip on Jan 29, 2019 19:48:35 GMT -5
I understand why the Sox are interested but the guy's a 3 time steroid loser so it'll be hard to root for a guy like that, and it's not like his numbers are overwhelming to begin with. I hope they're not looking at him as a potential closer/high leverage guy. One would say that since he signed a minor league deal, they are not counting on him at all.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Jan 29, 2019 20:00:21 GMT -5
Wasn't he the guy who got popped for steriods twice with the Mets? Thrice. Reinstated from a lifetime suspension last year. Lifetimes aren't what they used to be... wait didn't Yogi say that?
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jan 29, 2019 20:00:56 GMT -5
That is your list that you think proves that point? I don't buy your theory for one second. Marco Hernandez, Travis Shaw, Lin, Holt, Swihart, heck Sam Travis hit .263 in his first 33 games. Add that Bogaerts, Benny, Betts, Youk, etc. You wish DD agreed with you! Chavis is a top 100 guy because of his bat. He freaking signed Pearce and didn't spend on the bullpen. Is there anything that you agree with ever? Sorry, but you're just plain wrong that they should have spent $6 million on two relief pitchers and just winged it without Pearce. Find anyone other than pedrofan that agrees with you. I wanted one reliever for about the 9 million mark, for example Cody Allen.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 29, 2019 21:19:18 GMT -5
I understand why the Sox are interested but the guy's a 3 time steroid loser so it'll be hard to root for a guy like that, and it's not like his numbers are overwhelming to begin with. I hope they're not looking at him as a potential closer/high leverage guy. One would say that since he signed a minor league deal, they are not counting on him at all. Fair enough. They still need a potential closer/high leverage guy with some track record, don't they? One that hasn't been popped for PED usage 3 times already and has pitched recently?
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 29, 2019 21:23:35 GMT -5
He freaking signed Pearce and didn't spend on the bullpen. Is there anything that you agree with ever? Sorry, but you're just plain wrong that they should have spent $6 million on two relief pitchers and just winged it without Pearce. Find anyone other than pedrofan that agrees with you. I wanted one reliever for about the 9 million mark, for example Cody Allen. Fine, but that's still dumb as hell to go with nothing to platoon with Moreland. No one else is against signing Pearce. You know who Cody Allen reminds me of a little? Tazawa when he signed with the Marlins.
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Post by soxjim on Jan 29, 2019 22:53:14 GMT -5
That is your list that you think proves that point? I don't buy your theory for one second. Marco Hernandez, Travis Shaw, Lin, Holt, Swihart, heck Sam Travis hit .263 in his first 33 games. Add that Bogaerts, Benny, Betts, Youk, etc. You wish DD agreed with you! Chavis is a top 100 guy because of his bat. He freaking signed Pearce and didn't spend on the bullpen. Is there anything that you agree with ever? Sorry, but you're just plain wrong that they should have spent $6 million on two relief pitchers and just winged it without Pearce. Find anyone other than pedrofan that agrees with you. Pearce was a terrific pickup. Gives them power vs lefties with his .872 OPS over the last 6 years and ofc last year he was .959. Nunez/Beni/Devers/Bradley/Moreland ranges from .562 for Bradley to .617 - .694 for the others. Vs lefties the 2018 Sox had a .719 OPS vs a .817 OPS vs righties probably because the guys mentioned above overall struggled mightily vs lefties.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jan 30, 2019 2:24:20 GMT -5
I understand why the Sox are interested but the guy's a 3 time steroid loser so it'll be hard to root for a guy like that, and it's not like his numbers are overwhelming to begin with. I hope they're not looking at him as a potential closer/high leverage guy. One would say that since he signed a minor league deal, they are not counting on him at all. Not even getting a big league invitation to spring training.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 30, 2019 3:26:06 GMT -5
That is your list that you think proves that point? I don't buy your theory for one second. Marco Hernandez, Travis Shaw, Lin, Holt, Swihart, heck Sam Travis hit .263 in his first 33 games. Add that Bogaerts, Benny, Betts, Youk, etc. You wish DD agreed with you! Chavis is a top 100 guy because of his bat. He freaking signed Pearce and didn't spend on the bullpen. Is there anything that you agree with ever? Sorry, but you're just plain wrong that they should have spent $6 million on two relief pitchers and just winged it without Pearce. Find anyone other than pedrofan that agrees with you. I like the Pearce signing overall. I don't dislike Pearce. Yet if the choice was Pearce or bullpen help I'd take the bullpen help. You can include Eovaldi in this also. He strengthened an offense and starting pitching that were among the best in the game. While doing almost nothing to a bullpen that lost two key members. The majority of the board thinks the bullpen needs work. You can give your opinion, but stop talking like you know facts. You have no clue if I'm wrong. The guys I wanted or want could be awesome and Pearce could suck. This is Baseball players have up and down years all the time.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 30, 2019 8:46:35 GMT -5
You can give your opinion, but stop talking like you know facts. You have no clue if I'm wrong. The guys I wanted or want could be awesome and Pearce could suck. This is Baseball players have up and down years all the time. Your contention that we don't really know how good any of these players are going to be seems at odds with your willingness to argue about them forever.
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Post by Smittyw on Jan 30, 2019 10:08:05 GMT -5
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 30, 2019 10:54:11 GMT -5
Yeah, ok, the Red Sox are officially not signing anyone else.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Jan 30, 2019 10:57:39 GMT -5
From the article:
Now 33 years of age, Holland is not the same pitcher that once featured as one of the game’s most dominant relievers. Indeed, he last pitched as a true relief ace back in 2014. He blew out his elbow in the ensuing campaign and has never fully regained his velocity.
Just my opinion but I'll wager the Sox have in-house options superior to Holland.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 30, 2019 11:00:26 GMT -5
Geez, not even Greg Holland. They're not even willing to spend 2 - 3 million on a reliever for one year. Dombrowski must have an order from Henry not to exceed the upper luxury tax limit so he's not getting guys now so that he had a 6 million or so cushion to make acquisitions in July. Hope this stance doesn't cost the Red Sox their stash of minor league relievers and/or more as I suspect it will when the Sox ultimately need to fix their bullpen in July.
So what's left, Boxberger or Ramos, two relievers I wouldn't want? Already have Mejias. I know bullpens are volatile but the level of certainty in the Sox pen compared to other teams is not too high.
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 30, 2019 11:04:49 GMT -5
Holland walked over 6 per 9 last year. I'd only be signing him if they had no one at AAA better than him.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 30, 2019 11:12:07 GMT -5
From the article: Now 33 years of age, Holland is not the same pitcher that once featured as one of the game’s most dominant relievers. Indeed, he last pitched as a true relief ace back in 2014. He blew out his elbow in the ensuing campaign and has never fully regained his velocity.Just my opinion but I'll wager the Sox have in-house options superior to Holland. They probably do, but so what? When your strategy is to throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks, you want to throw as much stuff as possible. I don't see how bringing in Holland or a Holland-like substance of some sort makes this team worse in any way. Holland walked over 6 per 9 last year. I'd only be signing him if they had no one at AAA better than him. I think you can kind of throw his St. Louis numbers out for last year, though. He signed late, wasn't ready for the season, and Mike Matheny was so insistent on using him as a closer despite repeated blowups that St. Louis was forced to release Holland just to end that nightmare (notably, Matheny was gone not long after). Holland was a much better pitcher with Washington once he had a chance to get his feet under him. None of which is to say that Holland is a relief ace at this point in his career, but there's no particular reason to think he can't be a solid middle inning guy next year. I'd certainly have taken that chance for $3m.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 30, 2019 11:21:36 GMT -5
Holland walked over 6 per 9 last year. I'd only be signing him if they had no one at AAA better than him. True, but he was also coming off an injury that likely influenced his numbers heavily. He started to pitch better toward the end of the season with Washington. I'm not bemoaning the non-signing of Holland as much as I'm concerned about the lack of options that have the ability to be higher end/high leverage type relievers. It's hope that Barnes adapts to closing, Brasier doesn't regress too much, Wright stays healthy, and Thornburg returns to Milwaukee Thornburg. If two or more of those things don't happen it becomes a very thin pen. Then you have to hope that somebody steps up big. Maybe Colten Brewer does. But what's the certainty level with that? Maybe Mejia pitches at his best NYM level and stays clean. It's been awhile, so what's the certainty there? I really wish Kimbrel would come back on a huge 1 year deal to stabilize the bullpen, but wishing it doesn't make that a reality.
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Post by soxjim on Jan 30, 2019 12:06:40 GMT -5
From the article: Now 33 years of age, Holland is not the same pitcher that once featured as one of the game’s most dominant relievers. Indeed, he last pitched as a true relief ace back in 2014. He blew out his elbow in the ensuing campaign and has never fully regained his velocity.Just my opinion but I'll wager the Sox have in-house options superior to Holland. They probably do, but so what? When your strategy is to throw stuff at the wall a nd see what sticks, you want to throw as much stuff as possible. I don't see how bringing in Holland or a Holland-like substance of some sort makes this team worse in any way. Holland walked over 6 per 9 last year. I'd only be signing him if they had no one at AAA better than him. I think you can kind of throw his St. Louis numbers out for last year, though. He signed late, wasn't ready for the season, and Mike Matheny was so insistent on using him as a closer despite repeated blowups that St. Louis was forced to release Holland just to end that nightmare (notably, Matheny was gone not long after). Holland was a much better pitcher with Washington once he had a chance to get his feet under him. None of which is to say that Holland is a relief ace at this point in his career, but there's no particular reason to think he can't be a solid middle inning guy next year. I'd certainly have taken that chance for $3m. Why bother if you think you have better than Holland? Why waste money if you don't think the guy is that good? They seem to be under some type of budget too so why not wait until July with as much money as possible? Anyhow, you don't know what sticky pitcher will perform even if he makes the team. The Sox have issues with their bullpen and at 2b if Pedroia is done again and it appears they are under a budget. If the Sox don't think Holland is that good and they have a budget they shouldn't go after him. 2B might be more of a priority.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 30, 2019 12:14:02 GMT -5
They probably do, but so what? When your strategy is to throw stuff at the wall a nd see what sticks, you want to throw as much stuff as possible. I don't see how bringing in Holland or a Holland-like substance of some sort makes this team worse in any way. I think you can kind of throw his St. Louis numbers out for last year, though. He signed late, wasn't ready for the season, and Mike Matheny was so insistent on using him as a closer despite repeated blowups that St. Louis was forced to release Holland just to end that nightmare (notably, Matheny was gone not long after). Holland was a much better pitcher with Washington once he had a chance to get his feet under him. None of which is to say that Holland is a relief ace at this point in his career, but there's no particular reason to think he can't be a solid middle inning guy next year. I'd certainly have taken that chance for $3m. Why bother if you think you have better than Holland? Why waste money if you don't think the guy is that good? They seem to be under some type of budget too so why not wait until July with as much money as possible? Anyhow, you don't know what sticky pitcher will perform even if he makes the team. The Sox have issues with their bullpen and at 2b if Pedroia is done again and it appears they are under a budget. If the Sox don't think Holland is that good and they have a budget they shouldn't go after him. 2B might be more of a priority. I just said I think he can be a solid middle innings guy next year for all of $3m. Why wouldn't you sign a guy like that, other than the completely ridiculous self-imposed "budget" that the team is apparently sticking to? Absolutely wild how many fans are actively advocating against improving their teams because they're apparently super worried that John Henry might be late on one of his his yacht payments (he won't be).
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Post by soxjim on Jan 30, 2019 13:38:23 GMT -5
I just said I think he can be a solid middle innings guy next year for all of $3m. Why wouldn't you sign a guy like that, other than the completely ridiculous self-imposed "budget" that the team is apparently sticking to? Absolutely wild how many fans are actively advocating against improving their teams because they're apparently super worried that John Henry might be late on one of his his yacht payments (he won't be). When I was referring to you (sorry I didn't make it clear) I was referring to the Sox. My point was that the Sox probably don't think he's as good as you think or think they can do better later (I think they can.). As far as spending, I said on this thread it would be easy for me to spend Henry's money. So I'm not worried as you suggest. I just think he is on a budget. And by being on a budget if that limits what he can do in July then imo it's an awful move. It does seem like he is on a budget doesn' it? So while you go wild not picking up "Holland" I would go wild if they had a chance to pick up someone better in July but didn't because of budget. Apparently below in bold you said something two pages prior that I strongly agreed with but it seems like I took it wrong. I don't think Holland moves the bar much and as a result it's not worth risking losing more quality in the future. I don't trust anyone's pov that they aren't on budget. Because if they aren't on budget then I'd think they would be in on Kimbrel which I would love for a 1 year deal or if they don't care about 2020 etc - throw more at him. As you say "improve the team"- Kimbrel would do that. But imo they are on a budget. And I hear the comments about giving up too much. We got Addison Reed a couple of years back for not that much and that type of pickup is a lot better than Holland imo. . "On a more basic level, runs lost or gained relative to average at 1B aren't particularly more or less valuable than runs gained or lost at any other position. Yes, relievers get the leverage advantage but it just isn't that big a deal. "
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jan 30, 2019 15:16:49 GMT -5
Why bother if you think you have better than Holland? Why waste money if you don't think the guy is that good? They seem to be under some type of budget too so why not wait until July with as much money as possible? Anyhow, you don't know what sticky pitcher will perform even if he makes the team. The Sox have issues with their bullpen and at 2b if Pedroia is done again and it appears they are under a budget. If the Sox don't think Holland is that good and they have a budget they shouldn't go after him. 2B might be more of a priority. Absolutely wild how many fans are actively advocating against improving their teams because they're apparently super worried that John Henry might be late on one of his his yacht payments (he won't be). I don't think the fans here are really advocating for it. When you're owner basically says "budget, budget, can't spend more money," then I think the fans just take it as a reality or matter of fact that it's going to happen. I'm sure all of us would want to see Bryce Harper here if the Sox had the option. That is just using a example for spending even more. The Sox don't have that option because John Henry sets limits on spending across the board, which kind of stinks. Contracts, payroll, spending. It all has a certain limit Henry doesn't want to cross.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 30, 2019 15:25:00 GMT -5
I just said I think he can be a solid middle innings guy next year for all of $3m. Why wouldn't you sign a guy like that, other than the completely ridiculous self-imposed "budget" that the team is apparently sticking to? Absolutely wild how many fans are actively advocating against improving their teams because they're apparently super worried that John Henry might be late on one of his his yacht payments (he won't be). ... So while you go wild not picking up "Holland" I would go wild if they had a chance to pick up someone better in July but didn't because of budget. Apparently below in bold you said something two pages prior that I strongly agreed with but it seems like I took it wrong. I don't think Holland moves the bar much and as a result it's not worth risking losing more quality in the future. I don't trust anyone's pov that they aren't on budget. Because if they aren't on budget then I'd think they would be in on Kimbrel which I would love for a 1 year deal or if they don't care about 2020 etc - throw more at him. As you say "improve the team"- Kimbrel would do that. But imo they are on a budget. ... I called their budget "ridiculous" and "self-imposed", which I think should address your question... Absolutely wild how many fans are actively advocating against improving their teams because they're apparently super worried that John Henry might be late on one of his his yacht payments (he won't be). I don't think the fans here are really advocating for it. When you're owner basically says "budget, budget, can't spend more money," then I think the fans just take it as a reality or matter of fact that it's going to happen. I'm sure all of us would want to see Bryce Harper here if the Sox had the option. That is just using a example for spending even more. The Sox don't have that option because John Henry sets limits on spending across the board, which kind of stinks. Contracts, payroll, spending. It all has a certain limit Henry doesn't want to cross. Just to be clear, they absolutely do have that option.
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