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Post by Guidas on Jul 31, 2019 17:46:49 GMT -5
Houston understands the meaning of “window.” Theirs, give or take a year or two, is very similar to Boston’s. They also replaced Cole with Greinke for next season. They'll let him go for sure. Yup. Lucky Sox locked up Sale so they won’t be a player for Cole.
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Post by ancientsoxfogey on Jul 31, 2019 18:12:21 GMT -5
People can pine about not getting another bullpen piece or two. But the facts of the matter are (1) Sale, Porcello, and Price weren't going anywhere and were going to stay in the rotation no matter what; and (2) If these guys don't start pitching better, in both performance quality and amount of innings given, all the rest of the trade deadline stuff is irrelevant. The pen won't be good enough to offset mediocre performance by those three, and however good the pen might be, it will be fried from overwork by the end of September.
When Sox leadership says "we believe in who we have here," with regard to these 3 they HAVE to say that. They ARE going to pitch, and the team has invested a boatload of money in them. You don't throw $80 million AAV at the core of a rotation and then say, "Well, they're decent." If these guys can't step up the run prevention, the season is over. It's like the TV commercials running in our area now -- OK isn't good enough.
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Post by RedSoxStats on Jul 31, 2019 21:06:13 GMT -5
They also replaced Cole with Greinke for next season. They'll let him go for sure. Yup. Lucky Sox locked up Sale so they won’t be a player for Cole. Could be if they free up Mookie's 30M
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Post by itsdunkindonutstime on Jul 31, 2019 22:28:56 GMT -5
I have a question for anyone on this site regarding the trades system, I was wondering can DD make any move after July 31st? but whoever the sox get thru trades ( after July 31st ) will be ineligible for postseason, correct? no waivers this year, 1st year for that.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Aug 1, 2019 4:15:08 GMT -5
I have a question for anyone on this site regarding the trades system, I was wondering can DD make any move after July 31st? but whoever the sox get thru trades ( after July 31st ) will be ineligible for postseason, correct? no waivers this year, 1st year for that. No more trades this season at the MLB level, at all. None. No mas. Fin. Ahten. Etc. We have what we have and we are what we are.
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Post by hammerhead on Aug 1, 2019 5:35:50 GMT -5
So with 53 games left. This front office wiped there ass, with a 240 million roster. Instead of sending the signal that they still believe. They threw up the white flag. I have no doubt that if they had more expiring contracts it would have been a fire sale. Dombrowski had the nerve to say his phone was ringing off the hook with other teams calling wanting to acquire the current bullpen piecies... That's insulting to us as fans.
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Post by ancientsoxfogey on Aug 1, 2019 6:07:00 GMT -5
So with 53 games left. This front office wiped there ass, with a 240 million roster. Instead of sending the signal that they still believe. They threw up the white flag. I have no doubt that if they had more expiring contracts it would have been a fire sale. Dombrowski had the nerve to say his phone was ringing off the hook with other teams calling wanting to acquire the current bullpen piecies... That's insulting to us as fans. Why do you think that the phone wasn't ringing off the hook? Other teams knew the Sox could use bullpen help. They probably called seeing if they could screw us out of something good. Witness the Benny for Diaz rumor. This team's core issue is NOT the lack of marginal help we might have gotten in the past couple of days. The team's core issue is that Sale, Price, and Porcello just haven't had it this year
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Aug 1, 2019 6:14:30 GMT -5
So with 53 games left. This front office wiped there ass, with a 240 million roster. Instead of sending the signal that they still believe. They threw up the white flag. I have no doubt that if they had more expiring contracts it would have been a fire sale. Dombrowski had the nerve to say his phone was ringing off the hook with other teams calling wanting to acquire the current bullpen piecies... That's insulting to us as fans. The team's core issue is that Sale, Price, and Porcello just haven't had it this year Yes, and you can't do anything about Price (who's probably just going through a funk), and Sale (who might be ailing all year due to a injury, down velocity). You CAN fix the Porcello problem however. You pull him and phantom IL him or you let him mop up games, until he's out of it. You could even release the dude, he's pitching so poorly. If you increased bullpen depth, you could have used Eovaldi as a opener. You could have started Brian Johnson and followed with Eovaldi. A million options here. The depth would have been important here because Porcello is forcing the issue to pull him. You already have two arms who are worse than even Daniel Hudson right now (speaking on ragging on Hudson). Heath Hembree has a injured arm with down velocity, Brewer isn't a major league pitcher. The Sox needed the depth anyways. Now they entrenched themselves further by giving themselves no clear way out of the Porcello situation.
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Post by hammerhead on Aug 1, 2019 7:18:36 GMT -5
See I think maybe this was over Dombrowskis head. Since when has DD cared about prospects? When was the last time a Dombrowski team was within a game of a playoff spot and he didn't make a deadline move of some kind? Especially just coming off kicking Yankee ass and hanging with Tampa?
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Post by hammerhead on Aug 1, 2019 7:19:58 GMT -5
So with 53 games left. This front office wiped there ass, with a 240 million roster. Instead of sending the signal that they still believe. They threw up the white flag. I have no doubt that if they had more expiring contracts it would have been a fire sale. Dombrowski had the nerve to say his phone was ringing off the hook with other teams calling wanting to acquire the current bullpen piecies... That's insulting to us as fans. Why do you think that the phone wasn't ringing off the hook? Other teams knew the Sox could use bullpen help. They probably called seeing if they could screw us out of something good. Witness the Benny for Diaz rumor. This team's core issue is NOT the lack of marginal help we might have gotten in the past couple of days. The team's core issue is that Sale, Price, and Porcello just haven't had it this year You really think teams were ringing about our bullpen guys to screw us up? That is silly.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Aug 1, 2019 7:24:22 GMT -5
Something was off with him, he’s never allowed homers like he did over that short stint. Definitely recovered in a big way out west though. Those numbers looks very nice, and also seem relatively sustainable Other than the HR suppression he got in SF. He gave up 0 at home this year. Lol I guess that’s probably unsustainable, there’s like 8 home runs hit a year in San Francisco
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Aug 1, 2019 7:27:43 GMT -5
I absolutely believe teams were calling about Workman/Barnes/Walden. Maybe even trying to buy low on a guy like Brasier.
Pretty much every fan base thinks their bullpen sucks. We aren’t rare.
I’m fine with Dombrowski not making a move. It’s borderline impossible to repeat in baseball. A championship season is too much of a grind on the pitching staff. I think it’s partially the reason the arms started off as slow as they did (or never really got going in the case of a guy like Porcello, or Sale relative to his standards
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 1, 2019 7:39:10 GMT -5
So with 53 games left. This front office wiped there ass, with a 240 million roster. Instead of sending the signal that they still believe. They threw up the white flag. I have no doubt that if they had more expiring contracts it would have been a fire sale. Dombrowski had the nerve to say his phone was ringing off the hook with other teams calling wanting to acquire the current bullpen piecies... That's insulting to us as fans. I loved the fact when DD starts he was a straight shooter, if he said something he was going to do it and you could take what he said almost 100%. I'm not sure what has happened, be it ownership having more power now or DD learning to play to the Boston Media. Yet he's not the same, like he's all over the place now a days!
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Aug 1, 2019 7:53:17 GMT -5
See I think maybe this was over Dombrowskis head. Since when has DD cared about prospects? When was the last time a Dombrowski team was within a game of a playoff spot and he didn't make a deadline move of some kind? Especially just coming off kicking Yankee ass and hanging with Tampa? You know, this isn't really fair. He was in charge of the Marlins who won. Then was tasked with tearing it down and rebuilt the team who won again. Then he goes to Detroit who had a dying owner that did not care about prospects and the future of the team when he wasn't going to be around. He wanted a ring and Dombrowski sold out to try to get it for him. Then he came here. The Red Sox have the highest payroll in baseball. The highest. There's absolutely no excuse that the talent they're already paying for isn't a playoff team. This team can't even use injuries as an excuse because they've been very healthy for the most part. The 3 straight losses came rather rapid fire as well. They went from looking locked back in to 2.5 out and lost/uncaring in a blink of an eye.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 1, 2019 7:53:20 GMT -5
I absolutely believe teams were calling about Workman/Barnes/Walden. Maybe even trying to buy low on a guy like Brasier. Pretty much every fan base thinks their bullpen sucks. We aren’t rare. I’m fine with Dombrowski not making a move. It’s borderline impossible to repeat in baseball. A championship season is too much of a grind on the pitching staff. I think it’s partially the reason the arms started off as slow as they did (or never really got going in the case of a guy like Porcello, or Sale relative to his standards That teams would call is 100% believable, that the phone was ringing off the hook isn't. We were looking for bullpen help and everyone knew it. I'd also guess they were calling about Barnes and Hernandez, that's who I would have been calling about. If teams really wanted Workman, Walden, or Braiser DD should have sold high and used those assets to get a truly impactful guy. A guy like Workman has done very well, but scares the crap out of me. Heck everyone's new favorite stat even lists him as having the biggest gap Gap in performance from expected performance.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 1, 2019 8:07:59 GMT -5
One trait I loved about DD was he could evaluate talent. He didn't have to be Charington and just hoard every prospect. He had a sense when value was highest and who he should and shouldn't trade. His record is very good at this.
So either he loves our current group and teams didn't like what he was offering. We can hope right? More likely this smells of ownership getting involved. Just because we have a ton of young upside, the types of guys other teams love getting. Like given DD trade history and how creative he's been I just find it hard to believe that he couldn't make a deal for at minimum a solid veteran at a reasonable cost. Increases depth and sends a message to the team and yes I believe sending a message to the team has value.
I'm not going to flip out, as I didn't want to gut the system and make a trade at all cost. It's why I wanted free agent arms all off-season to avoid this very situation! Yet I am shocked he didn't add a solid veteran pitcher. Even if it was a proven guy that was struggling where the cost was low and you hope for a bounce back. It's very unlike DD and hence why I feel ownership was somehow involved.
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Post by incandenza on Aug 1, 2019 8:46:47 GMT -5
See I think maybe this was over Dombrowskis head. Since when has DD cared about prospects? When was the last time a Dombrowski team was within a game of a playoff spot and he didn't make a deadline move of some kind? Especially just coming off kicking Yankee ass and hanging with Tampa? Andrew Cashner peers sadly into the window of this conversation. Like fenwaythehardway said, if Dombrowski had waited until the deadline to make that trade the whole conversation would be different. (The bright side of all this is imagining what the conversations among Yankees fans are like right now. That is a fan base that has some legitimate gripes.)
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Aug 1, 2019 9:24:16 GMT -5
One trait I loved about DD was he could evaluate talent. He didn't have to be Charington and just hoard every prospect. He had a sense when value was highest and who he should and shouldn't trade. His record is very good at this. So either he loves our current group and teams didn't like what he was offering. We can hope right? More likely this smells of ownership getting involved. Just because we have a ton of young upside, the types of guys other teams love getting. Like given DD trade history and how creative he's been I just find it hard to believe that he couldn't make a deal for at minimum a solid veteran at a reasonable cost. Increases depth and sends a message to the team and yes I believe sending a message to the team has value. I'm not going to flip out, as I didn't want to gut the system and make a trade at all cost. It's why I wanted free agent arms all off-season to avoid this very situation! Yet I am shocked he didn't add a solid veteran pitcher. Even if it was a proven guy that was struggling where the cost was low and you hope for a bounce back. It's very unlike DD and hence why I feel ownership was somehow involved. I feel like this is an unfair bashing of him as well. He left the team after 2014, so he won a World Series in 2013 with a collection of guys on short-term contracts in a "bridge" year. His refusal to trade anyone led to this team keeping: Mookie Betts Xander Boagerts E-Rod (traded for him) Blake Swihart (there's a miss, though I still think the organization screwed him up) Travis Shaw (Starting to look like a nice bench piece again) Henry Owens (miss) Christian Vazquez He wanted to bring back Lester, until Lucchino fire bombed the negotiations and out of it they got Porcello who has won a Cy Young with the Red Sox and was huge in their World Series run last year (after trading Lester for Cespedes and then Cespedes for Porcello). I mean, imagine if Cherington listened more openly about trading his top guys: Mookie Betts, Blake Swihart for Cole Hamels
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Post by coachmac on Aug 1, 2019 10:19:44 GMT -5
The team's core issue is that Sale, Price, and Porcello just haven't had it this year With Porcello leaving at season's end I believe the above sentence accurately describes the dilemma for 2020 and beyond. The Sox have two aging,declining, highly paid lefthanders(maybe injured) at the top of the rotation for multiple years. This season shows how that has worked.
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Post by incandenza on Aug 1, 2019 10:31:35 GMT -5
Chris Sale is 30 and reports of his demise have been greatly exaggerated. Price's FIP and xFIP are very close to his career averages and his K-rate is its highest ever. There's as much reason to be confident in those two next season as any team's top two.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 1, 2019 10:42:00 GMT -5
Chris Sale is 30 and reports of his demise have been greatly exaggerated. Price's FIP and xFIP are very close to his career averages and his K-rate is its highest ever. There's as much reason to be confident in those two next season as any team's top two. Maybe it has and maybe isn't hasn't. I mean either he's leaving a lot more pitches in the middle of the plate than he's done in year's past or he doesn't have or use the velocity to get it past the hitters the way he would have in past years had he left pitches over the middle the plate. I think there's reason to be worried about Sale going forward the remainder of his deal. I was happy they made the deal so I'd be a hypocrite if I said it was a mistake but I have no problem with anybody thinking this could go badly moving forward. My own opinion is that we may never see dominant Chris Sale over 2/3 of the season as we have in year's past. We might only get flashes. I don't think he'll be a complete bust and I think he'll actually pitch better next season, but to say that his demise is greatly exaggerated, I would say we really don't know at this point. It depends on your standard of Chris Sale. The Chris Sale we're used to has a slider that nobody can touch, will put up ERAs around 2 for most of the season and tail off toward the end of the season, and will wind up his season with an ERA in the upper 2s/lower 3s. That's not the Chris Sale we're seeing this year and I don't know that we're going to see that guy next year. Maybe we get mid 3s next year? I'd be alright with that, but that wouldn't make him the ace of aces, if you know what I mean. Chris Sale has been basically the Cy Young runner up the past several years. I don't know if he'll be at that level or very close to that level going forward and it's fair to question that. The Red Sox need him to be that guy.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Aug 1, 2019 10:42:25 GMT -5
Chris Sale is 30 and reports of his demise have been greatly exaggerated. Price's FIP and xFIP are very close to his career averages and his K-rate is its highest ever. There's as much reason to be confident in those two next season as any team's top two. Chris Sale and David Price both have diminishing stuff. David Price has a special elbow. The Red Sox actively tanked Chris Sale's early season games so they could preserve him for August-October. I had posted this in the Game Day thread after Price's poor performance:
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Aug 1, 2019 10:42:33 GMT -5
Chris Sale is 30 and reports of his demise have been greatly exaggerated. Price's FIP and xFIP are very close to his career averages and his K-rate is its highest ever. There's as much reason to be confident in those two next season as any team's top two. Sale is still missing velocity, and the track record of pitchers past 30 is absolutely not something you can point to as a positive. I'm worried. Price on the other hand is just having a good season with little if any apparent skills degradation, despite a few rough starts recently. Given his age and the offensive environment he's pitching in, we should be very very happy if he pitches a full season and lands in the 3.50-3.75 ERA range, which doesn't seem wildly optimistic to me.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 1, 2019 11:03:30 GMT -5
One trait I loved about DD was he could evaluate talent. He didn't have to be Charington and just hoard every prospect. He had a sense when value was highest and who he should and shouldn't trade. His record is very good at this. So either he loves our current group and teams didn't like what he was offering. We can hope right? More likely this smells of ownership getting involved. Just because we have a ton of young upside, the types of guys other teams love getting. Like given DD trade history and how creative he's been I just find it hard to believe that he couldn't make a deal for at minimum a solid veteran at a reasonable cost. Increases depth and sends a message to the team and yes I believe sending a message to the team has value. I'm not going to flip out, as I didn't want to gut the system and make a trade at all cost. It's why I wanted free agent arms all off-season to avoid this very situation! Yet I am shocked he didn't add a solid veteran pitcher. Even if it was a proven guy that was struggling where the cost was low and you hope for a bounce back. It's very unlike DD and hence why I feel ownership was somehow involved. I feel like this is an unfair bashing of him as well. He left the team after 2014, so he won a World Series in 2013 with a collection of guys on short-term contracts in a "bridge" year. His refusal to trade anyone led to this team keeping: Mookie Betts Xander Boagerts E-Rod (traded for him) Blake Swihart (there's a miss, though I still think the organization screwed him up) Travis Shaw (Starting to look like a nice bench piece again) Henry Owens (miss) Christian Vazquez He wanted to bring back Lester, until Lucchino fire bombed the negotiations and out of it they got Porcello who has won a Cy Young with the Red Sox and was huge in their World Series run last year (after trading Lester for Cespedes and then Cespedes for Porcello). I mean, imagine if Cherington listened more openly about trading his top guys: Mookie Betts, Blake Swihart for Cole HamelsHave you gone back and looked at the rankings during his time as GM? I'm sorry but any decent GM should be able to know not to trade truly elite guys like Betts and Boagerts. I'll give him props for ERod, but what about Webster and De LA Rosa? The horrible Reddick trade? He just let so many guys wither away from peak value down to almost nothing. It was crystal clear he had no clue how to judge future success with these guys. I get it's not easy and you won't always be right, yet he acted like he was scared to make a mistake and given his trades he was probably right. He certainly deserves credit for the Championship, even if I feel he got a little lucky. Yet he also deserves blame for the other seasons and moves he made and didn't make. It's not like Hamels was the only guy or that those rumors were even 100% true. Go see the Chris Sale rumors before the trade, people thought it would take twice what it did. I'm just a big believer in that to maximize a farm system you need to be able to sell high on guys you think are overvalued. It's not easy and it can be risky, but the good GMs do it and it makes a world of difference
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Aug 1, 2019 11:22:57 GMT -5
I feel like this is an unfair bashing of him as well. He left the team after 2014, so he won a World Series in 2013 with a collection of guys on short-term contracts in a "bridge" year. His refusal to trade anyone led to this team keeping: Mookie Betts Xander Boagerts E-Rod (traded for him) Blake Swihart (there's a miss, though I still think the organization screwed him up) Travis Shaw (Starting to look like a nice bench piece again) Henry Owens (miss) Christian Vazquez He wanted to bring back Lester, until Lucchino fire bombed the negotiations and out of it they got Porcello who has won a Cy Young with the Red Sox and was huge in their World Series run last year (after trading Lester for Cespedes and then Cespedes for Porcello). I mean, imagine if Cherington listened more openly about trading his top guys: Mookie Betts, Blake Swihart for Cole HamelsHave you gone back and looked at the rankings during his time as GM? I'm sorry but any decent GM should be able to know not to trade truly elite guys like Betts and Boagerts. I'll give him props for ERod, but what about Webster and De LA Rosa? The horrible Reddick trade? He just let so many guys wither away from peak value down to almost nothing. It was crystal clear he had no clue how to judge future success with these guys. I get it's not easy and you won't always be right, yet he acted like he was scared to make a mistake and given his trades he was probably right. He certainly deserves credit for the Championship, even if I feel he got a little lucky. Yet he also deserves blame for the other seasons and moves he made and didn't make. It's not like Hamels was the only guy or that those rumors were even 100% true. Go see the Chris Sale rumors before the trade, people thought it would take twice what it did. I'm just a big believer in that to maximize a farm system you need to be able to sell high on guys you think are overvalued. It's not easy and it can be risky, but the good GMs do it and it makes a world of difference The Red Sox just traded the number one overall prospect in baseball to get Chris Sale, so I don't think that's a fair critique. It also ignores that Cherington won a WS with short-term contracts. I actually did forget about Reddick, Webster, and De La Rosa. I don't know if Josh Reddick was actually as highly thought of as we think he was: Josh Reddick and the Most Overrated Prospect in Each MLB Farm SystemThere were a lot of concerns, but at the end of the day, he's carved out a nice career for himself. He's no more or less valuable than JBJ. In fact, the year after we got rid of him he won a GG and was 16th in MVP voting. At the time of the trade, I do remember people were elated to be getting back Andrew Bailey. The biggest piece of the De La Rosa and Webster trade wasn't the players they got; they were already floundering top prospects. It was that they got rid of the horrible Crawford, Gonzalez, and Beckett contracts in the famous Nick Punto trade.
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