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7/12-7/14 Red Sox vs. Dodgers Series Thread
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jul 14, 2019 23:59:31 GMT -5
I get what you're seeing. It's tough because while Kinsler provided them next to nothing he certainly didn't lose it for you either. It's like if the Bruins won the cup, if you had a time machine would you still make the Backes signing? I think the Red Sox would still win without Kinsler, but, they won so you could argue don't change a damn thing on a winning team. I really liked Buttrey and wished they gave him a chance here. If only for his name. It's just that Buttrey wasn't an egregious overpay at the time. It's not like the Kimbrel package where even at the time it was seen as too much. Buttrey was fair value. It happens. He does have a great name though. I'd be lying if I wasn't amped at the idea of getting Ian Kinsler. IIRC he was having a decent year with the LAA. Just hated seeing the butter boy go.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jul 15, 2019 0:10:09 GMT -5
These are all the series victories the Red Sox have had against winning teams:
April 19th - 21st 3 game sweep at TB
April 29th - May 1st 3 game sweep of Oakland at home.
June 17th - 19th 2 out of 3 at Twins.
3 series victories against winning teams all year. It's July 15th.
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Post by soxfansince67 on Jul 15, 2019 0:10:53 GMT -5
BY THE WAY we are approaching the date when it all went to crap for the Bobby V version of the team in 2012. On July 19, they were 48-45. We are 50-43, not a whole lot better. They finished 69-93 - won only 21 games the rest of the season while losing 48. Losses like this can tip a team into a bad place - let's see what happens next.
I just refreshed my memory of that disastrous team. Lots of offense, actually - Salty, AGon, Pedey, Middlebrooks, Cody Ross and Papi all had good to very good seasons. (but...Carl Crawford)
But the pitching! Lester, Buccholz, Doubront, Beckett, Cook and Dice K all sucked big time. And the big pen arm was weirdo Acevez - 2 wins, 10 losses, 25 saves and an ERA of 5.36. Oh - and they broke Daniel Bard that year.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jul 15, 2019 0:19:13 GMT -5
These are all the series victories the Red Sox have had against winning teams: April 19th - 21st 3 game sweep at TB April 29th - May 1st 3 game sweep of Oakland at home. June 17th - 19th 2 out of 3 at Twins. 3 series victories against winning teams all year. It's July 15th. In fact, I want to extrapolate further: Diamondbacks (exactly .500, but including) 1-2 Indians 1-2 Rockies (.500 as well) 1-1 Astros 2-4 Dodgers 1-2 Twins 2-1 Yankees 1-6 Athletics 4-3 Rays 4-5 Rangers 2-2
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 15, 2019 0:21:17 GMT -5
BY THE WAY we are approaching the date when it all went to crap for the Bobby V version of the team in 2012. On July 19, they were 48-45. We are 50-43, not a whole lot better. They finished 69-93 - won only 21 games the rest of the season while losing 48. Losses like this can tip a team into a bad place - let's see what happens next. This team is nothing like the 2012 Red Sox, who were a totally dysfunctional group thanks to their manager. The team was demoralized from the getgo. The FO situation was a mess. That team was coming off an embarrassing season. This year's team is more talented, coming off a championship, and doesn't have that soap opera drama. The 2012 team lost Ortiz to injury and had nothing else. This year's team is disappointing, will probably struggle against TB and NY and then look like world beaters against lesser competition for most of the rest of the way. The 2012 team lost 93 games. The 2019 team is much more likely to win 93 games than lose 93 games. Not trying to sound like a pollyana, but I don't really see any real comparisons between the 2012 Red Sox and the 2019 Red Sox. This year's team is probably more like the 2009 Red Sox, perhaps? That team won 95 games. This year's team has played like paper tigers so far. They look really tough but when they go up against the really tough teams, they don't fare so well.
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Post by soxfansince67 on Jul 15, 2019 0:25:08 GMT -5
BY THE WAY we are approaching the date when it all went to crap for the Bobby V version of the team in 2012. On July 19, they were 48-45. We are 50-43, not a whole lot better. They finished 69-93 - won only 21 games the rest of the season while losing 48. Losses like this can tip a team into a bad place - let's see what happens next. This team is nothing like the 2012 Red Sox, who were a totally dysfunctional group thanks to their manager. The team was demoralized from the getgo. The FO situation was a mess. That team was coming off an embarrassing season. This year's team is more talented, coming off a championship, and doesn't have that soap opera drama. The 2012 team lost Ortiz to injury and had nothing else. This year's team is disappointing, will probably struggle against TB and NY and then look like world beaters against lesser competition for most of the rest of the way. The 2012 team lost 93 games. The 2019 team is much more likely to win 93 games than lose 93 games. Not trying to sound like a pollyana, but I don't really see any real comparisons between the 2012 Red Sox and the 2019 Red Sox. This year's team is probably more like the 2009 Red Sox, perhaps? That team won 95 games. This year's team has played like paper tigers so far. They look really tough but when they go up against the really tough teams, they don't fare so well. You see that many wins in this team? I didn't say that this team was like that team - I raised it to show that the disaster that year didn't show itself until well into July. Anything can happen in baseball. I am calling it like I see it (though a fan since 67, I have no issues being tough on the team when they are playing poorly). My current thought is that they end up maybe 10 games over .500 and miss the playoffs. Just too many weak arms, too many underperformers, too much bad baseball being played well into the season - no reason to think they would turn it around after such a sample size. And Sale and Porcello are not trending in the right direction. And if they do manage the miracle, right the ship and do better no one here will be happier than me and I will freely admit my pessimistic prediction!
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 15, 2019 0:28:36 GMT -5
My wife had suggested going to this game as part of her college reunion but they wanted a lot of $ for mediocre seats and I didn't want to take a chance that we spent a lot of money to see the Sox lose, and night games are tough (especially when they're long to begin with and then go extra innings!)...not an ideal scenario for our little boy to see his first game, so I was glad we didn't get the tickets.
As it was, and please pardon the expressions, the Red Sox gave their home fans blue balls in the 9th, 10th, and 11th innings, and then a swift kick in the balls in the 12th inning. That's about the best way I can sum up this particular game.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 15, 2019 0:32:24 GMT -5
This team is nothing like the 2012 Red Sox, who were a totally dysfunctional group thanks to their manager. The team was demoralized from the getgo. The FO situation was a mess. That team was coming off an embarrassing season. This year's team is more talented, coming off a championship, and doesn't have that soap opera drama. The 2012 team lost Ortiz to injury and had nothing else. This year's team is disappointing, will probably struggle against TB and NY and then look like world beaters against lesser competition for most of the rest of the way. The 2012 team lost 93 games. The 2019 team is much more likely to win 93 games than lose 93 games. Not trying to sound like a pollyana, but I don't really see any real comparisons between the 2012 Red Sox and the 2019 Red Sox. This year's team is probably more like the 2009 Red Sox, perhaps? That team won 95 games. This year's team has played like paper tigers so far. They look really tough but when they go up against the really tough teams, they don't fare so well. You see that many wins in this team? I didn't say that this team was like that team - I raised it to show that the disaster that year didn't show itself until well into July. Anything can happen in baseball. I am calling it like I see it (though a fan since 67, I have no issues being tough on the team when they are playing poorly). My current thought is that they end up maybe 10 games over .500 and miss the playoffs. Just too many weak arms, too many underperformers, too much bad baseball being played well into the season - no reason to think they would turn it around after such a sample size. And Sale and Porcello are not trending in the right direction. And if they do manage the miracle, right the ship and do better no one here will be happier than me and I will freely admit my pessimistic prediction! I think they'll do better than 86-76. I thought 93 and the second wild card but that looks a bit shaky. And this team does very little to make you really believe in them. I don't think you're being pessimistic at all. I think your takes are pretty realistic actually. I guess I was just pushing back against and misunderstanding your point about the 2012 Red Sox who are the yard stick for the worst and least enjoyable Red Sox team of the 40 years I've been watching them. And yes, I do see the storm clouds on the horizon with TB and NY up ahead for 2 weeks. I think there will be a lot of aggravation and "giving up" followed by a hot streak, the hottest we see this year, against the weaker competition they face afterwards.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 15, 2019 1:35:49 GMT -5
Imagine not having won the World Series last season. LOL Ian Kinsler almost single handedly cost them a WS game, and was thoroughly outplayed at the end of the season by Holt. the logic of we won the WS so every trade is fine, means you'd have been ok with Devers for Beltre if the team won? Kinsler had some big hits against the Yankees in the postseason last year. He was a small part why they won. Buttrey has been a completely different pitcher since being traded, too. He was a fringe guy until the Angels changed what he was doing. I thought the Sox gave up too much too, but I wouldn't take it back if I knew they were going to win.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 15, 2019 1:37:17 GMT -5
Yeah I'm done with Hector Velazquez. The dude isn't a major league quality pitcher anymore. Please bring up Darwinzon and get rid of Velazquez please?
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Post by kevfc89 on Jul 15, 2019 2:18:44 GMT -5
LOL Ian Kinsler almost single handedly cost them a WS game, and was thoroughly outplayed at the end of the season by Holt. the logic of we won the WS so every trade is fine, means you'd have been ok with Devers for Beltre if the team won? Kinsler had some big hits against the Yankees in the postseason last year. He was a small part why they won. Buttrey has been a completely different pitcher since being traded, too. He was a fringe guy until the Angels changed what he was doing. I thought the Sox gave up too much too, but I wouldn't take it back if I knew they were going to win. Kinsler slashed .190/.244/.266 in September and October. Buttrey has been more valuable this year than any reliever the Sox currently employ. Again, most people were fine with the trade at the time, I believe I was too. But it's not our jobs to get the evaluation right, it's the GM's. DD did not correctly evaluate Buttrey's present and future (he was breaking out in Pawtucket and it continued when the Angels called him up shortly after joining them, so not sure they did much to change his approach). I believe hindsight has shown it to be a bad trade; and I can't go down the rabbit hole of justifying any trade by just pointing to a WS win, particularly one where the player in question played a mostly inconsequential part.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 15, 2019 2:23:55 GMT -5
This is awful "production."
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Post by Guidas on Jul 15, 2019 8:14:37 GMT -5
This team is inexplicably not winning at home. Last night is a good example - they had runners in scoring position in the 9th, 10th and 11th, and the advantage of one hit being able to end the game successfully. But they failed to deliver in that spot, and lost yet another home game bringing their home record to 21-24.
If they were playing at just their 2016-17 home game winning percentage rate of .597 (pre-JD Martinez and amazing season .703 rate), that would put them at 56-37, comfortably ahead in the WC and just a few games behind NYY.
Teams are supposed to be built to win at home and to leverage that advantage. This team is defying that formula, for whatever reason(s). Frustrating as hell.
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Post by coachmac on Jul 15, 2019 8:16:53 GMT -5
This is awful "production." I agree with your premise that Velasquez hasn't been good this season, I think the management of the roster was partially at fault last night. Velasquez was in for his 3rd night in a row. The Sox added Cashner and put Wright on the IL leaving them 1 rested arm short. Both Sale and Price going short innings left them a short pen.
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Post by incandenza on Jul 15, 2019 11:52:09 GMT -5
This team is nothing like the 2012 Red Sox, who were a totally dysfunctional group thanks to their manager. The team was demoralized from the getgo. The FO situation was a mess. That team was coming off an embarrassing season. This year's team is more talented, coming off a championship, and doesn't have that soap opera drama. The 2012 team lost Ortiz to injury and had nothing else. This year's team is disappointing, will probably struggle against TB and NY and then look like world beaters against lesser competition for most of the rest of the way. The 2012 team lost 93 games. The 2019 team is much more likely to win 93 games than lose 93 games. Not trying to sound like a pollyana, but I don't really see any real comparisons between the 2012 Red Sox and the 2019 Red Sox. This year's team is probably more like the 2009 Red Sox, perhaps? That team won 95 games. This year's team has played like paper tigers so far. They look really tough but when they go up against the really tough teams, they don't fare so well. You see that many wins in this team? I didn't say that this team was like that team - I raised it to show that the disaster that year didn't show itself until well into July. Anything can happen in baseball. I am calling it like I see it (though a fan since 67, I have no issues being tough on the team when they are playing poorly). My current thought is that they end up maybe 10 games over .500 and miss the playoffs. Just too many weak arms, too many underperformers, too much bad baseball being played well into the season - no reason to think they would turn it around after such a sample size. And Sale and Porcello are not trending in the right direction. And if they do manage the miracle, right the ship and do better no one here will be happier than me and I will freely admit my pessimistic prediction! I think something was weirdly off with this team when they started 6-13, but since then they're 44-30, which is a 96-win pace over a full season. (As I've mentioned a bunch of times, they've consistently bounced between a 95- and 100-win pace discounting the bad start.) But you think they'll go just 36-33 the rest of the way. Why do you expect them to play so much worse for the rest of the season? They're 16-9 in their last 25 even with the dreadful bullpen, so I can't say I see a lot of warning signs that they're about to fall off a cliff or anything.
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Post by soxfansince67 on Jul 15, 2019 12:31:51 GMT -5
You see that many wins in this team? I didn't say that this team was like that team - I raised it to show that the disaster that year didn't show itself until well into July. Anything can happen in baseball. I am calling it like I see it (though a fan since 67, I have no issues being tough on the team when they are playing poorly). My current thought is that they end up maybe 10 games over .500 and miss the playoffs. Just too many weak arms, too many underperformers, too much bad baseball being played well into the season - no reason to think they would turn it around after such a sample size. And Sale and Porcello are not trending in the right direction. And if they do manage the miracle, right the ship and do better no one here will be happier than me and I will freely admit my pessimistic prediction! I think something was weirdly off with this team when they started 6-13, but since then they're 44-30, which is a 96-win pace over a full season. (As I've mentioned a bunch of times, they've consistently bounced between a 95- and 100-win pace discounting the bad start.) But you think they'll go just 36-33 the rest of the way. Why do you expect them to play so much worse for the rest of the season? They're 16-9 in their last 25 even with the dreadful bullpen, so I can't say I see a lot of warning signs that they're about to fall off a cliff or anything. It's their upcoming schedule, their home record, flailing Sale and Porcello, a burning out pen, Benny's issues and the way they play much of the time ( work hard to barely win, get blown out in losses, lots of just bad baseball) that inform my view of the future. We'll see how it all works out.
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Post by incandenza on Jul 15, 2019 12:36:37 GMT -5
I think something was weirdly off with this team when they started 6-13, but since then they're 44-30, which is a 96-win pace over a full season. (As I've mentioned a bunch of times, they've consistently bounced between a 95- and 100-win pace discounting the bad start.) But you think they'll go just 36-33 the rest of the way. Why do you expect them to play so much worse for the rest of the season? They're 16-9 in their last 25 even with the dreadful bullpen, so I can't say I see a lot of warning signs that they're about to fall off a cliff or anything. It's their upcoming schedule, their home record, flailing Sale and Porcello, a burning out pen, Benny's issues and the way they play much of the time ( work hard to barely win, get blown out in losses, lots of just bad baseball) that inform my view of the future. We'll see how it all works out. I guess I'd say, yes, they've had all those issues. And they're 44-30 in their last 74 games. If anything it seems to me there's more upside there if they can correct some of those issues; e.g., if Eovaldi helps to get the bullpen in order. Sale is a bit of a concern though. But indeed, we'll see how it all works out.
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