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Breaking News - Dombrowski out
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Sept 12, 2019 9:42:15 GMT -5
There have been a lot of words spent on this, including many by me, but it comes down to this: The Red Sox hired a guy to do a job, he did it very well, and then they didn't trust him to do the next one so they fired him.
That's brutral. Not necessarily wrong, but definitely brutal. Perhaps it's as simple as that, but it seems to me that he helped build the Montreal Expos into the powerhouse they'd become by 1994, rebuilt the Marlins after he has ordered to strip them following their 1st championship and set them up for their 2nd championship. He also built the Tigers up after they lost 119 games. He has a track record of being able to build teams back up so I'm not sure why they wouldn't have trusted him to rebuild the Red Sox.
Like I said, you may be right and it might be as simple as that, but I still think there was a lack of cohesion going on behind the scenes within the baseball ops related departments - perhaps too many valued voices being stifled. Well... Off the top of my head: Margot, Buttrey, Logan Allen, Shaun Anderson, Beeks, and Dubon are all players who would be on the team right now and have some upside. The Basabes, Kopech, Nogosek, and Espinal all could help in the future. I would have Kopech ranked 2nd if he were still in the system. There's absolutely been a long-term cost to the way that Dombrowski has done business here, and I don't know that you can justify it all just because 2018 happened. Like fine, Kimbrel was good, but he wasn't an essential part of that run and for the combined cost of his salary and the prospects used to acquire him, you surely could have built an equally good bullpen for a much lower price. For however good he was at rebuilding the Tigers and Marlins, those were different situations. The Red Sox aren't trying to re-build (hopefully), they're trying to sustain. Dombrowski hasn't ever done that job, and he wasn't showing any signs of doing it in Boston. I think the really interesting question in retrospect is what happened at the trade deadline. At the time I figured it was Dombrowski who realized most of his minor league pieces hadn't hit that peak prospect value phase that he seems to like to capitalize on. Now I'm wondering if he really was trying to do a Casas for Diaz deal or something that aligned the rest of the FO against him.
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danr
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Post by danr on Sept 12, 2019 10:04:21 GMT -5
Off the top of my head: Margot, Buttrey, Logan Allen, Shaun Anderson, Beeks, and Dubon are all players who would be on the team right now and have some upside. The Basabes, Kopech, Nogosek, and Espinal all could help in the future. I would have Kopech ranked 2nd if he were still in the system. That's not a commentary on the trades those players were involved in, as the got value when they needed to and won because of it. He got talent back! But he has traded a fair amount of talent, and the 2019 team us weaker because of it. The mediocre 2019 team is worth the 2016 to 2018 run, but also invites fair questions as to whether he was the right guy going forward. I meant to write players who would be regulars with the Sox in place of the players acquired. Of your list, only Margot, Buttrey and Beeks have any significant MLB experience. Margot has been mediocre and not as good as JBJ. Buttrey has a high ERA but could have been in the Sox BP. Beeks has been the best performer but where would the Sox have been in 2018 without Eovaldi? The rest have not yet proven to be MLB players.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Sept 12, 2019 10:21:35 GMT -5
Off the top of my head: Margot, Buttrey, Logan Allen, Shaun Anderson, Beeks, and Dubon are all players who would be on the team right now and have some upside. The Basabes, Kopech, Nogosek, and Espinal all could help in the future. I would have Kopech ranked 2nd if he were still in the system. That's not a commentary on the trades those players were involved in, as the got value when they needed to and won because of it. He got talent back! But he has traded a fair amount of talent, and the 2019 team us weaker because of it. The mediocre 2019 team is worth the 2016 to 2018 run, but also invites fair questions as to whether he was the right guy going forward. I meant to write players who would be regulars with the Sox in place of the players acquired. Of your list, only Margot, Buttrey and Beeks have any significant MLB experience. Margot has been mediocre and not as good as JBJ. Buttrey has a high ERA but could have been in the Sox BP. Beeks has been the best performer but where would the Sox have been in 2018 without Eovaldi? The rest have not yet proven to be MLB players. Margot has been better than JBJ this year and will probably only widen that gap going forward. The Red Sox have also been relying on non-outfielders as their fourth outfielder for the past two seasons, so even if Margot isn't better than JBJ, he would certainly have been useful on the roster. Honestly just a little weird to look at all the holes on this roster and conclude that Dombrowski couldn't possibly have spent his resources any better.
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Post by James Dunne on Sept 12, 2019 10:22:36 GMT -5
For whatever it's worth, Margot would be incredibly valuable to the current iteration Red Sox as a Bradley platoon partner, lefty killer, and 4th outfielder, probably getting 350-400 PA a year. They don't have that guy and it's been notable. That doesn't undo the value from previous years but I think people have tended to underrate Margot because he wasn't particularly good in 2018. He's on the way to his second 2.0+ bWAR season and he's not even 25 yet.
EDIT: Yeah, what FTHW said at the same time as me.
EDIT2: Margot is hitting .375/.466/.534 against lefties with 15 walks and 18 strikeouts, has an .800 OPS in the second half, and a .474 SLG away from Petco.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Sept 12, 2019 13:00:25 GMT -5
For whatever it's worth, Margot would be incredibly valuable to the current iteration Red Sox as a Bradley platoon partner, lefty killer, and 4th outfielder, probably getting 350-400 PA a year. They don't have that guy and it's been notable. That doesn't undo the value from previous years but I think people have tended to underrate Margot because he wasn't particularly good in 2018. He's on the way to his second 2.0+ bWAR season and he's not even 25 yet. EDIT: Yeah, what FTHW said at the same time as me. EDIT2: Margot is hitting .375/.466/.534 against lefties with 15 walks and 18 strikeouts, has an .800 OPS in the second half, and a .474 SLG away from Petco. Not that you're arguing the trade was a mistake, but the value Kimbrel brought back outweighs a solid platoon player. It doesn't leave the the organization in a position where they missed out on a solid 6 year regular for cheap dollars. He can add value to a team, but he's no centerpiece or regular. Moncada still scares me as a player. Last I checked he had a .815 OPS in the 2nd half and still strikes out a ton. .815 is still good for a 2B, but not what the league expected of him. Still super young and capable of improving. Kopech, wasn't he on the ML roster when he went down with TJ, thus lost a year+ of control? I was super high on him, but he had walk issues and wonder how the time off will impact the improvements he's made. Anderson Espinosa x2 Tommy John surgeries so he may never pitch in the majors. Basabe hasn't done anything in the minors. Logan Allen is only 22 and has 27.2 IP in the majors, but a 6.18 ERA and a k/bb ratio of 17/13 isn't a great start. Mauricio Dubon was traded for Drew Pomeranz so it seems like the Brewers were down on him. As of right now, I'm not really that upset with any talent lost. It's not like they lost a Betts, Devers, or even Benintendi level of talent, as of yet. That's why I don't get the, "depleted the system" narrative. Depleted of what?
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 12, 2019 17:24:19 GMT -5
Depleted of depth.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Sept 12, 2019 17:29:39 GMT -5
I concede this; however, I wouldn't undo these trades for 2019 depth pieces. I don't think this team is in October if they had Kopech, Allen, Margot, and Moncada right now. It'd help, but they'd still be outside looking in.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 12, 2019 17:37:30 GMT -5
Depth was a huge problem this year. There was just a game last week where JDM was responsible for 4 runs being scored against them because he was playing RF in Fenway a position he has no business ever playing.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Sept 12, 2019 17:48:17 GMT -5
Depth was a huge problem this year. There was just a game last week where JDM was responsible for 4 runs being scored against them because he was playing RF in Fenway a position he has no business ever playing. It was a huge issue this year. I just don't think from what they've given up would have made up for 7+ games on the year. You still have to zero out the games in which others played, though JDM's play in the field in that game was very detrimental. It was a problem with who, or lack thereof, Dombrowski brought in. If the Red Sox had a healthy Pearce from last season they'd have been better. He could have fixed the problems with free agency or trades.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Sept 12, 2019 19:57:06 GMT -5
For whatever it's worth, Margot would be incredibly valuable to the current iteration Red Sox as a Bradley platoon partner, lefty killer, and 4th outfielder, probably getting 350-400 PA a year. They don't have that guy and it's been notable. That doesn't undo the value from previous years but I think people have tended to underrate Margot because he wasn't particularly good in 2018. He's on the way to his second 2.0+ bWAR season and he's not even 25 yet. EDIT: Yeah, what FTHW said at the same time as me. EDIT2: Margot is hitting .375/.466/.534 against lefties with 15 walks and 18 strikeouts, has an .800 OPS in the second half, and a .474 SLG away from Petco. Not that you're arguing the trade was a mistake, but the value Kimbrel brought back outweighs a solid platoon player. It doesn't leave the the organization in a position where they missed out on a solid 6 year regular for cheap dollars. He can add value to a team, but he's no centerpiece or regular. Moncada still scares me as a player. Last I checked he had a .815 OPS in the 2nd half and still strikes out a ton. .815 is still good for a 2B, but not what the league expected of him. Still super young and capable of improving. Kopech, wasn't he on the ML roster when he went down with TJ, thus lost a year+ of control? I was super high on him, but he had walk issues and wonder how the time off will impact the improvements he's made. Anderson Espinosa x2 Tommy John surgeries so he may never pitch in the majors. Basabe hasn't done anything in the minors. Logan Allen is only 22 and has 27.2 IP in the majors, but a 6.18 ERA and a k/bb ratio of 17/13 isn't a great start. Mauricio Dubon was traded for Drew Pomeranz so it seems like the Brewers were down on him. As of right now, I'm not really that upset with any talent lost. It's not like they lost a Betts, Devers, or even Benintendi level of talent, as of yet. That's why I don't get the, "depleted the system" narrative. Depleted of what? JimEd's answer - depth, yes. However your point still stands. It's a strength of DD to keep the right prospects - and BTW Moncada is playing 3b these days. But DD should be able to find a reasonable option as a #4 OF option. Depth/role players are guys that you should be able to pick up off the scrapheap and find some success with. Didn't seem to happen. Maybe if DD had a more cohesive role with the rest of the baseball OPS dept, perhaps these issues would have been minimized. In a vacuum I have no issues with backups/#4/5 type starters being used in deals. You just have to be able to replace them thru the farm system or scrap heap pickups. Talent isn't evenly distributed. You just don't pick up the next Mookie Betts, but the Manny Margots of the world are hardly irreplaceable. Same with the Shaun Andersons of the world, too. The problem is that Velazquez and Johnson gave them nothing this year.
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Post by soxjim on Sept 12, 2019 20:13:10 GMT -5
I agree the dumping of DD was brutal. He helped his team win 3 div. titles and helped win a w/s putting together one of the greatest teams in the last 40-50 years of which he made two moves of getting Eovladi and Pearce that were enormous. It highlights his savvy as a real good GM. Who gets dumped without much of goodbye with those type of credentials? I agree with James on that. But then though I ask - what different direction are they going in? If they don't trust the team then why so much haste in signing Sale? Unless they know Sale is done? Because if Sale isn't done-- why is there such a quick need to go in a different direction? Unless you have to take another leap and say Price and Eovaldi "are done?"
In addition, yeah there is a subplot in that DD has traded a lot away but that's all it is- a sub-plot. The main story is that his starting staff collapsed in which DD was relying on 8 starters. You could argue he should never have counted on Wright but there was also thought Wright could be a valued long reliever. He had the depth at starting pitching and before the latest collapse of the hitting - this team was ripped apart by it's starting pitching. Thus the depth issue just evades the issue of the awful starting pitching of which they had depth and yet it broke down to a level the even pretty good depth couldn't overcome.
I think for what they've given up the last 3 years during DD's time here was well worth it. Yes there is some suffering -- but do you think the Red Sox feel this starting staff of next year of Sale, ERod, Price and Eovaldi - just looking at these 4 guys-- that they are without a doubt not very good anymore? If you think the possibility is that they can be real good, wouldn't this team be a potential beast next year? If you are potential beast then why the quick change? If it is nothing more than wanting to go in a different direction then why show so little class?
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Post by soxjim on Sept 12, 2019 20:36:27 GMT -5
I think we're mostly in agreement in terms of what Dombrowski has done, good stuff mostly, I'm just thinking about his fit in the future and if DD really would want to be a part of it. There's a manager vs. leader debate (that I was honestly trying to avoid) where a good leader doesn't always make a good manager. Cliffs notes version - leaders drive strategy and make big tough decisions. Manager are more about getting the most out of what's already in place and keeping everyone on board. DD is a great leader, I wonder about if he's a good manager. My own take, I see a team that's mostly put together for the next few years and just needs someone to manage what is already in place. IMHO that's not DD's thing so he ends up being a General without a war to fight. Best for both sides to move on, past performances aside. That there's some uncertainty with how the team will do next year probably makes the decision to move on easier, but doesn't necessarily make the decision for you. Yes I think we are. But the bold is what I think confuses me. DD has shown to be terrific. SO if you're Henry- and you control the purse strings as he does-- he tells DD "I'm not spending a dime more unless I see clear evidence this team can win by the the trade deadline. " Is that far-fetched? Because if Henry controls the spending DD can't do anything to undermine that, can he? Unless he would deliberately sabotage the team? That's a movie imo not reality. With that said -- what is it a GM can do to get "the most out of what's already in place?" DD wins. So what more is there? What is it as GM that he is doing by not getting the most out of players? He is not a coach -- so what is he doing wrong? Not giving the players enough analytics? Well if he won last year - how much is he costing the team? Unless he wasn't the guy for example that got Eovaldi and Pearce in the 1st place? I read something that James picked up and brought to my attention from a tweet by Evan Ehrlich or whatever the name. It seemed like he was getting a quote from someone internal calling the 2018 team winning it all a "minor miracle." I mean this sounds like a lot pettiness from some work employees. Maybe DD fosters this in some manner I don't know. IMO more like someone got shunned and wanted some last bit of flesh in return. Laughable how anyone could suggest that team was some sort of a minor miracle for winning to any degree. They were beasts since day 1. And I'm reading some stuff now about the Kimbrel trade. Yeah Sox gave up a lot-- but the idea was to win right away. Kimbrel excelled at it. That 3 year run was much more than a potential platoon of JBJ. I don't know if others remember but I certainly do for example the Yanks in 2017 coming at the Sox after a starter leaves and So Yanks keep chipping away a run here or there -- yet for the most part they bring in Kimbrel and while Kimbrel always gave us a heart attack yet we did have high confidence in him prior to last year's playoffs, didn't we? Kimbrel for most of his 3 years could go against elite teams and get it done. Kimbrel was a darn good reliever. Ask the Mets if they would like a guy for most of the 3 years was a Kimbrel type and they'd leap at the chance. While Kimbrel nearly sunk Sox in playoffs yet he helped build the team over his 3 year run prior to that miserable 2018 playoff performance.
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Post by iakovos11 on Sept 12, 2019 20:52:57 GMT -5
From the Keith Law Chat Today -> meadowparty.com/blog/2019/09/12/klawchat-9-12-19/David: Do you think the Henry et. al. were unsatisfied with Trader Dave emptying the farm system? Flags fly forever, but man, one year later, and it’s a disaster there. Keith Law: It’s gotten a lot weaker, but I don’t think it’s a disaster, and some of this stuff (Groome blowing out, Flores passing away) isn’t anyone’s fault. Keith Law: I think that was a factor. I can’t believe that would be THE factor.
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Post by larrycook on Sept 12, 2019 21:12:56 GMT -5
There have been a lot of words spent on this, including many by me, but it comes down to this: The Red Sox hired a guy to do a job, he did it very well, and then they didn't trust him to do the next one so they fired him. That's brutral. Not necessarily wrong, but definitely brutal. Brutal or business. Is this any different than what they did to Larry?
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Post by Don Caballero on Sept 12, 2019 21:57:48 GMT -5
There's absolutely been a long-term cost to the way that Dombrowski has done business here, and I don't know that you can justify it all just because 2018 happened. Like fine, Kimbrel was good, but he wasn't an essential part of that run and for the combined cost of his salary and the prospects used to acquire him, you surely could have built an equally good bullpen for a much lower price. I do agree with the sentiment that Dombrowski wasn't the right guy from this point forward and his aggressive nature set us back for this year and maybe the next one, but it was totally worth it for the 2016-2018 run. That team was excellent and it doesn't happen if Dombrowski doesn't go all out. It gets into a butterfly effect nightmare scenario if you start questioning stuff like they could have gotten Kimbrel performance out of random guys. Maybe it happens, maybe it doesn't happen. What is unquestionable is that if you have a shot to go for a title, you go for it. You go nuts, trade the farm, pay everyone that might be a borderline improvement on anyone you currently have. Heck, if I'm the GM, I'd trade my mom for a title. If you lose, at least you lost going for it. And Dombrowski went for it and he won. But yeah, 2020 onward I'm looking at other guys for the job as well.
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danr
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Post by danr on Sept 12, 2019 23:56:03 GMT -5
I meant to write players who would be regulars with the Sox in place of the players acquired. Of your list, only Margot, Buttrey and Beeks have any significant MLB experience. Margot has been mediocre and not as good as JBJ. Buttrey has a high ERA but could have been in the Sox BP. Beeks has been the best performer but where would the Sox have been in 2018 without Eovaldi? The rest have not yet proven to be MLB players. Margot has been better than JBJ this year and will probably only widen that gap going forward. The Red Sox have also been relying on non-outfielders as their fourth outfielder for the past two seasons, so even if Margot isn't better than JBJ, he would certainly have been useful on the roster. Honestly just a little weird to look at all the holes on this roster and conclude that Dombrowski couldn't possibly have spent his resources any better. I disagree. Margot is not in the same league, defensively, as JBJ. JBJ's assets to the Sox are his defense and his arm. Those make him enormously valuable to a team that doesn't need another strong hitter. JBJ is one of the greatest defensive CFs the Sox ever have had. Margot never could have been a starting CF for the Sox.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Sept 13, 2019 7:35:28 GMT -5
Margot has been better than JBJ this year and will probably only widen that gap going forward. The Red Sox have also been relying on non-outfielders as their fourth outfielder for the past two seasons, so even if Margot isn't better than JBJ, he would certainly have been useful on the roster. Honestly just a little weird to look at all the holes on this roster and conclude that Dombrowski couldn't possibly have spent his resources any better. I disagree. Margot is not in the same league, defensively, as JBJ. JBJ's assets to the Sox are his defense and his arm. Those make him enormously valuable to a team that doesn't need another strong hitter. JBJ is one of the greatest defensive CFs the Sox ever have had. Margot never could have been a starting CF for the Sox. Ummm... he kind of is. JBJ is (or was, at this point) marginally better, but it's not a huge difference. And as someone already pointed out, it's not like they're mutually exclusive on the roster, they form a natural platoon.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Sept 13, 2019 7:37:04 GMT -5
Margot has been better than JBJ this year and will probably only widen that gap going forward. The Red Sox have also been relying on non-outfielders as their fourth outfielder for the past two seasons, so even if Margot isn't better than JBJ, he would certainly have been useful on the roster. Honestly just a little weird to look at all the holes on this roster and conclude that Dombrowski couldn't possibly have spent his resources any better. I disagree. Margot is not in the same league, defensively, as JBJ. JBJ's assets to the Sox are his defense and his arm. Those make him enormously valuable to a team that doesn't need another strong hitter. JBJ is one of the greatest defensive CFs the Sox ever have had. Margot never could have been a starting CF for the Sox. JBJ WAR 1.9 Margot WAR 2.0 As a replacement, they're virtually a wash. As a platoon, maybe it boosts their contributions, but I wouldn't argue one over the other.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Sept 13, 2019 8:27:50 GMT -5
Honestly, just because Margot would be a good platoon partner going forward or the better player doesn't mean that the Sox shouldn't have made the deal. All it means is that Dombrowski did not do a good job identifying a guy who could play CF and platoon with JBJ for cheap. Either that or he ignored his baseball ops' people's suggestions.
I'm sorry but RH hitting platoon #4 centerfielders shouldn't be that rare to come by. I'd find them easier to get than closers with HOF resumes. I know that's an unpopular position around here but when the Sox got Kimbrel he had a decent year in SD preceded directly by that with a prolonged stretch of dominance in Atlanta.
Yeah, you can argue they gave up two much quantity, that perhaps the deal gets done without Allen - that issue I won't argue against, but it's speculatory because we don't know that's the case, as far as having to give up Allen. You can make the suggestion that Allen was the dealbreaker in your opinion and I wouldn't argue against it. I would say that Margot, Guerra, and Asauje for 3 years of Kimbrel wasn't an overpayment.
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Post by James Dunne on Sept 13, 2019 8:35:12 GMT -5
And the question isn't even whether the trade was good - you opined that there isn't anyone Dombrowski traded other than Moncada who would be helping right now. The Red Sox weighed that balance, and I'm okay with the consequence. We don't need to pretend it isn't a consequence. They're worse in 2019 because of the trades that made them so good from 2016 to 2018. I don't even consider that a criticism, it's just a thing that happened.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Sept 13, 2019 8:48:50 GMT -5
Honestly, just because Margot would be a good platoon partner going forward or the better player doesn't mean that the Sox shouldn't have made the deal. All it means is that Dombrowski did not do a good job identifying a guy who could play CF and platoon with JBJ for cheap. Either that or he ignored his baseball ops' people's suggestions. I'm sorry but RH hitting platoon #4 centerfielders shouldn't be that rare to come by. I'd find them easier to get than closers with HOF resumes. I know that's an unpopular position around here but when the Sox got Kimbrel he had a decent year in SD preceded directly by that with a prolonged stretch of dominance in Atlanta. Yeah, you can argue they gave up two much quantity, that perhaps the deal gets done without Allen - that issue I won't argue against, but it's speculatory because we don't know that's the case, as far as having to give up Allen. You can make the suggestion that Allen was the dealbreaker in your opinion and I wouldn't argue against it. I would say that Margot, Guerra, and Asauje for 3 years of Kimbrel wasn't an overpayment. The discussion is a lot less interesting when every trade gets reduced to a binary of should have done it/shouldn't have done it. There is such a thing as a mediocre trade. I wouldn't say the Kimbrel trade is completely indefensible, but it's like a C+ trade at best to me. The thing people forget about Kimbrel is not just that Dombrowski gave up a bunch of prospects, it's that he was expensive on top of that. He paid for him so that he could pay for him. It would have been hard for him to spend any more on a closer if he had set out to do so. Kimbrel wasn't a bust but he also didn't do anything that justified that kind of price. That's really the thing about Dombrowski, he does a decent job of identifying needs and addressing them, but he has a strong tendency to overpay. Look at Eovaldi. Wasn't a totally irrational signing as far as the team's needs were concerned, but why did it need to get done so early? In a market where Morton went for like half the price and Keuchel went not at all, Dombrowski was bidding against himself. And again it gets to needing some nuance in this conversation, because again, this is like a C- move. Not a fireable offense in it's own right, but just another instance of Dombrowski over-spending when he really shouldn't have had to.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Sept 13, 2019 9:53:06 GMT -5
Honestly, just because Margot would be a good platoon partner going forward or the better player doesn't mean that the Sox shouldn't have made the deal. All it means is that Dombrowski did not do a good job identifying a guy who could play CF and platoon with JBJ for cheap. Either that or he ignored his baseball ops' people's suggestions. I'm sorry but RH hitting platoon #4 centerfielders shouldn't be that rare to come by. I'd find them easier to get than closers with HOF resumes. I know that's an unpopular position around here but when the Sox got Kimbrel he had a decent year in SD preceded directly by that with a prolonged stretch of dominance in Atlanta. Yeah, you can argue they gave up two much quantity, that perhaps the deal gets done without Allen - that issue I won't argue against, but it's speculatory because we don't know that's the case, as far as having to give up Allen. You can make the suggestion that Allen was the dealbreaker in your opinion and I wouldn't argue against it. I would say that Margot, Guerra, and Asauje for 3 years of Kimbrel wasn't an overpayment. The discussion is a lot less interesting when every trade gets reduced to a binary of should have done it/shouldn't have done it. There is such a thing as a mediocre trade. I wouldn't say the Kimbrel trade is completely indefensible, but it's like a C+ trade at best to me. The thing people forget about Kimbrel is not just that Dombrowski gave up a bunch of prospects, it's that he was expensive on top of that. He paid for him so that he could pay for him. It would have been hard for him to spend any more on a closer if he had set out to do so. Kimbrel wasn't a bust but he also didn't do anything that justified that kind of price. That's really the thing about Dombrowski, he does a decent job of identifying needs and addressing them, but he has a strong tendency to overpay. Look at Eovaldi. Wasn't a totally irrational signing as far as the team's needs were concerned, but why did it need to get done so early? In a market where Morton went for like half the price and Keuchel went not at all, Dombrowski was bidding against himself. And again it gets to needing some nuance in this conversation, because again, this is like a C- move. Not a fireable offense in it's own right, but just another instance of Dombrowski over-spending when he really shouldn't have had to. Maybe he felt that Eovaldi would go home to Houston to pitch if he didn't offer more money. Sometimes players' first choices aren't Boston and it takes more money to change their mind. Certainly was the case with Price. How much more extra money should be thrown at a player is a different argument, but that's probably why Dombrowski got it done early. Morton is having an amazing year, but everybody acts like it was a slam dunk that Morton was going to be better than Eovaldi. Morton is an older pitcher with less stuff. Eovaldi is younger and the Red Sox thought that between Tampa's tinkering and their tinkering with Eovaldi that they had the makings of a front line pitcher who's only 29. It's clear that Dombrowski wanted Eovaldi to be in 2019's rotation and not Morton. In 2019, in hindsight, that's the wrong decision. Maybe in time Eovaldi stays healthy (for once) and he becomes the pitcher Dombrowski envisioned. I wouldn't bet my life on that, but I get the logic of why Dombrowski did what he did.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 13, 2019 11:55:03 GMT -5
It's like Dombrowski wants who he wants and maxes out his credit cards to always get what he wants. That's not sustainable and leaves the team paying Miguel Cabrera 8 years after he was last a good hitter while still paying Prince Fielder.
The main thing that is most concerning to me is not that Dombrowski got fired. It's when he got fired. If they felt he's not the guy to move the Red Sox forward, that's fine. But that decision seemed to be made very hastily, at a time when there's really nothing for a GM to do. That makes it seem as if there is a lot of drama, distrust and dysfunction behind the scenes.
I'm sure Dombrowski forced the issue, but it still could have been handled much better.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Sept 13, 2019 11:58:41 GMT -5
It's like Dombrowski wants who he wants and maxes out his credit cards to always get what he wants. That's not sustainable and leaves the team paying Miguel Cabrera 8 years after he was last a good hitter while still paying Prince Fielder. The main thing that is most concerning to me is not that Dombrowski got fired. It's when he got fired. If they felt he's not the guy to move the Red Sox forward, that's fine. But that decision seemed to be made very hastily, at a time when there's really nothing for a GM to do. That makes it seem as if there is a lot of drama, distrust and dysfunction behind the scenes. I'm sure Dombrowski forced the issue, but it still could have been handled much better. I get it, but no matter what people would be talking about how many GMs we’ve gone through, and the way this was announced won’t matter to 99% of baseball fans in about a month and a half.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Sept 13, 2019 12:12:13 GMT -5
I just don't get how the Kimbrel trade could be looked at as mediocre when Margot recently upgraded himself from nothing to a solid platoon player. It's not like Kimbrel offered the team nothing. He was a very good closer during his tenur here. He was bailed out greatly during the postseason run, but still converted his opportunities.
They got their ring and the players traded away so far are easily replaceable for what they've given their respective teams. Where he screwed up was that he overspent on Pearce and Eovaldi and didn't acquire depth either through free agency or trade.
While I'm not over the moon on the Sale extension or the Price contract, they don't win without Price, Sale could still be Sale, and the Xander Bogaerts extension is criminally under appreciated.
I agree his biggest issue here is he didn't do anything all that creative like flip Porcello for Miley and have it work. Not a whole lot of outside the box thinking. I do think he'll throw in an extra player or 2 just to get deals done which will eventually burn you.
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