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2013 Non-Red Sox ST Discussion
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Post by charliezink16 on Feb 26, 2013 3:40:37 GMT -5
Didn't want to eat into the Webster/Doubront talk, so I'll start this thread off with some Yankee talk. With the recent news of Granderson's injury, the Yankees will be fielding a very mediocre product for the first 2 months of the season, as Dan Symborski points out (insider only) insider.espn.go.com/mlb/spring2013/story/_/id/8983085/without-curtis-granderson-new-york-yankees-field-their-weakest-opening-day-lineup-1991-mlbSymborski's projected lineup, with Granderson and Jeter currently out, is as follows: PLAYER B. Gardner CF I. Suzuki RF R. Cano 2B M. Teixeira 1B K. Youkilis 3B T. Hafner DH J. Rivera LF C. Stewart C E. Nunez SS So New York loses Swisher, Martin, Chavez, Ibanez and Jones and adds two aging veterans on the decline in Youkilis and Hafner, one who is likely to miss at least 60 games. Additionally, Granderson, A-Rod, and Jeter are injured, two indefinitely, and they made no improvements to an overachieving starting rotation which, in my opinion, will see a serious regression from 1-2 of Sabathia (32), Kuroda (38), and Pettite (40). I obviously present this with an extremely biased opinion and didn't mention the improvements that will be made when the 3 hitter return from injury, but I could easily see a 3rd-4th place finish from this Yankees team. Joy. |
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Post by ibsmith85 on Feb 26, 2013 17:01:37 GMT -5
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Post by bluechip on Feb 26, 2013 17:12:07 GMT -5
If one employer offers twenty times the salary of another employer, everyone takes the higher salary position 99.9% of the time. That comparison is a huge cop-out by Grienke. If he said he would go to the worse situation when the difference in salary is only 1%, then he would actually be making a real statement. |
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Post by pedroelgrande on Feb 26, 2013 17:21:10 GMT -5
Yeah they are no pure like the rest of the league. |
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Post by ibsmith85 on Feb 26, 2013 17:29:45 GMT -5
I never said he lied, or was un truthful, it just isnt something that he needs to touch, why even make a statment like that?
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Feb 26, 2013 17:31:13 GMT -5
You hate a guy for having the balls to say what everyone knows is true? Good on him. I appreciate the honesty. |
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Post by mainesox on Feb 26, 2013 19:24:42 GMT -5
You hate a guy for having the balls to say what everyone knows is true? Good on him. I appreciate the honesty. This. With very, very few exceptions, everyone knows that that's the case with every player, and it's basically become a farce every time a player says he's not in it for the money, so I appreciate Greinke actually saying it. |
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Post by raftsox on Feb 27, 2013 8:20:14 GMT -5
I never said he lied, or was un truthful, it just isnt something that he needs to touch, why even make a statment like that? This is probably in response to a direct question about why he signed with the Dodgers. I'm sure this wasn't a press-release that he had to say because he couldn't sleep at night. |
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Post by ibsmith85 on Feb 28, 2013 11:21:43 GMT -5
Whatever you guys say.
I just dont like guys who dont want to win. If Shitty Team X offers me 5-10% more AAV than Great Team Y, and youre talking about $150m as opposed to $125m, Im signing with Great Team Y every f*cking time.
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Post by James Dunne on Feb 28, 2013 12:13:26 GMT -5
Whatever you guys say. I just dont like guys who dont want to win. If Shitty Team X offers me 5-10% more AAV than Great Team Y, and youre talking about $150m as opposed to $125m, Im signing with Great Team Y every f*cking time. No offense intended, but that's easy to say when nobody is offering you $150 million. Baseball players treat baseball as a profession. This isn't breaking news. I'm happy to see a player telling the truth, rather than romanticizing the whole process. |
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Feb 28, 2013 12:26:24 GMT -5
It's also not like he's not trying when he's pitching. Of course he's trying to win - he's just going to do it for whoever pays him the most to do so. There's a term for that: rational.
Sports fans kill Lebron James for bandwagon jumping to go to the Heat, and then kill Greinke for saying he'd play for a last place team if they paid him the most. Can't have it both ways.
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Post by ramireja on Feb 28, 2013 13:05:49 GMT -5
It's also not like he's not trying when he's pitching. Of course he's trying to win - he's just going to do it for whoever pays him the most to do so. There's a term for that: rational. Sports fans kill Lebron James for bandwagon jumping to go to the Heat, and then kill Greinke for saying he'd play for a last place team if they paid him the most. Can't have it both ways. Well its rational under the assumption that the most important factor in someone's decision to play baseball is to make the most money possible. I think some fans have an issue with that assumption though. To think that making 130 mil instead of 150 mil will drastically impact someone's life isn't necessarily rational. |
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Post by jdb on Feb 28, 2013 13:09:33 GMT -5
Also CA just increased their top state tax rate to 13.3. Granted you pay taxes in the state/city your playing in but thats 81 games a year in LA and all his endorsements. How comparable were the Rangers in the end?
Ive got no problem with someone admitting they picked a team bc of the money. Its better than saying Denver had the best public schools,
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Post by brianthetaoist on Feb 28, 2013 13:10:23 GMT -5
Personally, I have a theory that I this comes from a core inconsistency in sports: the business depends on fans acting as if it's not a business, or at least that the business part is secondary. Sure, rationally we all know it is a business, we still like to pretend that loyalty and belonging and other high-minded pursuits that form the core of our attachment to sports also form the core of it for the people involved in the sport ... maybe not in the same proportions, but generally speaking. And when someone goes against that, it's jarring, maybe makes people feel a little like a sucker for playing along and spending money on jerseys and other crap.
Me, I have no problem with what Greinke says, or what Lebron did. Well, ok, outside of that awful ESPN show ... that was a crime against humanity.
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Post by jmei on Feb 28, 2013 13:17:13 GMT -5
Two things:
(1) This offseason was Greinke's one chance to sign the big deal that would hypothetically set his family up for life. Aging veterans take smaller contracts in order to win (or to be close to family, play for their hometown team, etc.) all the time, but when you're talking about your first and only blockbuster FA deal, I don't begrudge players for taking the most they can get. Remember, most players are (forcibly) retired by 35, and while that extra $25m seems irrelevant to you, talk to a financial planner and they'll tell you that between taxes and philanthropy and helping out family and retirement planning, that extra money often does matter.
(2) We hear this all the time-- for baseball players, signing a big deal isn't always just about the money and what it can buy, but the respect/status a given contract signifies. Greinke got offered the largest contract ever for a right-handed pitcher, and it's justifiably tough for a guy to turn that down for status/prestige reasons alone.
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Post by James Dunne on Feb 28, 2013 13:20:53 GMT -5
Personally, I have a theory that I this comes from a core inconsistency in sports: the business depends on fans acting as if it's not a business, or at least that the business part is secondary. Sure, rationally we all know it is a business, we still like to pretend that loyalty and belonging and other high-minded pursuits that form the core of our attachment to sports also form the core of it for the people involved in the sport ... maybe not in the same proportions, but generally speaking. And when someone goes against that, it's jarring, maybe makes people feel a little like a sucker for playing along and spending money on jerseys and other crap. Me, I have no problem with what Greinke says, or what Lebron did. Well, ok, outside of that awful ESPN show ... that was a crime against humanity.And to an extent, that can be chalked up to a fairly young guy getting some REALLY bad PR advice. |
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Post by Oregon Norm on Feb 28, 2013 13:56:16 GMT -5
i think there's as much variation in player attitudes as there is in all of us. It is a business and the approach you take has to include that. But each player reacts differently in the way they integrate that into their thinking. A lot of it probably has to do with individual personalities. As a counterpoint, here's Jered Weaver after he signed his most recent contract: “How much more do you need? Could have got more, whatever. Who cares? If $85 million is not enough to take care of my family and generations to come, then I’m pretty stupid.” Given you're own personal feelings about this approach, you may want to criticize or laud it. Personally, I'd take Weaver over Greinke and not just because of the money. I love to watch him pitch (except against the Sox, of course). |
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Post by remember04 on Feb 28, 2013 15:24:01 GMT -5
i think there's as much variation in player attitudes as there is in all of us. It is a business and the approach you take has to include that. But each player reacts differently in the way they integrate that into their thinking. A lot of it probably has to do with individual personalities. As a counterpoint, here's Jered Weaver after he signed his most recent contract: “How much more do you need? Could have got more, whatever. Who cares? If $85 million is not enough to take care of my family and generations to come, then I’m pretty stupid.” Given you're own personal feelings about this approach, you may want to criticize or laud it. Personally, I'd take Weaver over Greinke and not just because of the money. I love to watch him pitch (except against the Sox, of course). Cliff Lee said similar things when he signed with Philly. This to me is much more praise worthy and if you actually think about its true. Just don't watch MTV cribs and you won't be jealous of the guy with five Bentleys when you only have four. |
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Post by mainesox on Feb 28, 2013 19:23:53 GMT -5
I agree with Weaver that $85M is "enough," but you still can't begrudge a guy for taking more when it's readily available. Weaver was also in a completely different situation than Greinke in that, he signed with the team that drafted and developed him, and that he had spent his whole career with, Greinke had bounced around a little the last couple years, and was looking at playing for one of two different organizations that he had absolutely zero connection to.
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Post by raftsox on Mar 1, 2013 8:43:37 GMT -5
It's probably worth mentioning that Greinke not only signed the largest contract ever for a right handed starter, but that he signed the largest contract ever for a right handed starter with a team that will probably contend for the World Series.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Mar 1, 2013 10:00:30 GMT -5
I agree with Weaver that $85M is "enough," but you still can't begrudge a guy for taking more when it's readily available. Weaver was also in a completely different situation than Greinke in that, he signed with the team that drafted and developed him, and that he had spent his whole career with, Greinke had bounced around a little the last couple years, and was looking at playing for one of two different organizations that he had absolutely zero connection to. Marvin Miller said that baseball players were amoung the most exploited workers in America, and he was right. Exploitation isn't just being paid a low wage. It's being paid less than your labor is actually worth. Greinke is both a one--in-a-million athlete AND has spent an enormous amount of time honing his skills as a pitcher. As a result of HIS abilities and HIS hard work, his labor is literally worth $20m a year. Playing for less than that means he's handing over the fruits of his labor to a billionaire team owner. Jeff Weaver wants to talk about "I don't need more than 85m" or whatever? Well, you need a hell of a lot more than that to own a baseball team... The Dodgers ownership has about a gazillion times more money than they need... you think they're going to just give all their profits to charity or something? They've got all the money they need, after all. |
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Post by joshv02 on Mar 1, 2013 11:01:39 GMT -5
What does that matter? There is no valid way to compare interpersonal utility. If Weaver is happy with $85 and the place he is, and Grienke is happy with a gazillion $ and the place he is - great. Neither is right or wrong. Both are legitimate ways to order each personal preference.
Why we get hung up the morality play is beyond me. The player isn't 'greedy' (in any bad sense) for signing for the most money, and the owner isn't 'greedy' (in any bad sense) for wanting to sign the player for the least amount of money. Players aren't stupid for signing for less than they could get elsewhere. Etc Etc. Its all personal preference - which is all a-ok, so long as it isn't being a furry (which is just creepy).
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Post by bluechip on Mar 1, 2013 11:05:38 GMT -5
The Dodgers ownership has about a gazillion times more money than they need... The Dodger's ownership is actually a financial services firm. They have a fiduciary duty to their investors. It is not like it is owned by an individual. |
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Post by joshv02 on Mar 1, 2013 11:21:44 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure that the Guggenheim group that owns the Dodgers is made up of a discrete set of limited partners who are individuals and not entities, like FSG. It is not an investment open to Guggenheim Partners LLC for investment. There is obvious overlap, and I assume that they have contracts with GP LLC, but they are not the same entities.
If I'm wrong, let me know. This is more of an educate guess than actually seeing the docs.
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Post by elguapo on Mar 1, 2013 13:37:19 GMT -5
Having way more money than you need is only greedy if you keep it for yourself.
I think it makes sense to bargain for a salary at least commensurate with one's worth, and it is laudable to help those less fortunate, and that it's fair to judge public figures (and oneself) by those standards.
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