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2019-20 Non-Red Sox Offseason Thread
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Post by incandenza on Jan 13, 2020 14:28:09 GMT -5
The draft pick penalties seem unreasonable to me. What does that portion of the penalty accomplish, as a deterrent, that the rest of the penalty didn't already accomplish? And yet it will have effects on the organization for like a decade. It effectively punishes Houston fans for the bad actions of some individuals in the organization. The fans have nothing to do with this though. If a star player gets popped doing steroids he gets suspended, so what if it dismays his fans? Likewise with this. They are sending a severe message that cheating isn't going to be tolerated. Hate to say it, but good. If a star player gets popped doing steroids they don't take away the team's draft picks. Obviously any penalty in principle harms the team, and by extension the fans. But the draft penalty has long-lasting effects that essentially just serve to make the team worse for the next decade. There's no logic to the draft penalty other than: you cheated, therefore you will be deprived of player talent for several years to come. That's just a real bummer if you're an Astros fan. You think the penalty needs to be extremely severe? Okay, double Luhnow's and Hinch's suspension period. Double the fine. Those seem like the appropriate domains for penalizing the team. According to your own logic, the purpose here is deterrence, and that should be plenty sufficient as a deterrent.
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mobaz
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Post by mobaz on Jan 13, 2020 14:28:42 GMT -5
There's a sentiment that the Sox cheating "wasn't as bad" as the Astros per some of the Athletic coverage, but there's obviously the repeater tax. I just wonder whether Cora bears the brunt and the team gets less. Probably not.
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 13, 2020 14:31:43 GMT -5
The fans have nothing to do with this though. If a star player gets popped doing steroids he gets suspended, so what if it dismays his fans? Likewise with this. They are sending a severe message that cheating isn't going to be tolerated. Hate to say it, but good. If a star player gets popped doing steroids they don't take away the team's draft picks. If the team had a policy in place to give players steroids and then help them beat the testing system and they caught doing it? Then they almost certainly would take away draft picks. The whole thing with the draft picks is that it seems to work as a deterrent. Longer suspensions wouldn't have hurt the Astros more - any team with any sort of management structure will be able to replace one or two individuals. There's a sentiment that the Sox cheating "wasn't as bad" as the Astros per some of the Athletic coverage, but there's obviously the repeater tax. I just wonder whether Cora bears the brunt and the team gets less. Probably not. It's hard to see it not working out exactly this way. Depending on the severity of what they uncover, I'd expect Cora gets at least a year, the Red Sox get fined, and maybe a lesser draft pick penalty (like a #2).
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shagworthy
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My neckbeard game is on point.
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Post by shagworthy on Jan 13, 2020 14:33:08 GMT -5
If you are the Sox, do you have to consider firing Cora, if he's suspended for a year and proven to be instrumental in not one, but two cheating scandals? I like Alex, but man, it's going to be an uphill battle for him to recover any respect around the league when he does come back from his punishment.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 13, 2020 14:41:20 GMT -5
The fans have nothing to do with this though. If a star player gets popped doing steroids he gets suspended, so what if it dismays his fans? Likewise with this. They are sending a severe message that cheating isn't going to be tolerated. Hate to say it, but good. If a star player gets popped doing steroids they don't take away the team's draft picks. Obviously any penalty in principle harms the team, and by extension the fans. But the draft penalty has long-lasting effects that essentially just serve to make the team worse for the next decade. There's no logic to the draft penalty other than: you cheated, therefore you will be deprived of player talent for several years to come. That's just a real bummer if you're an Astros fan. You think the penalty needs to be extremely severe? Okay, double Luhnow's and Hinch's suspension period. Double the fine. Those seem like the appropriate domains for penalizing the team. According to your own logic, the purpose here is deterrence, and that should be plenty sufficient as a deterrent. I don't think that's enough of a deterrent. Using my analogy, if star player gets suspended for PEDs, he is cheating, not the rest of the team, so no the team shouldn't lose draft picks. But with what Cora was doing, the whole damn team had the benefit of knowing what was going on. They should very well lose draft picks. As far as the loss of draft picks, yeah it hurts, but you're talking one or two players. What are the odds that these players are franchise altering players? Probably not that high. I mean sometimes that first pick winds up being Trey Ball or a guy like David Murphy, which means useful, but hardly irreplaceable or franchise altering. Still, we also know that the pick, unlikely as it is, could turn into the next Mike Trout or more likely a useful player that's probably good enough to be a regular, if not a star, and about the same thing with the 2nd pick. So the long-lasting effects might not be to the extent you have it, but if it is...well, don't cheat.
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mobaz
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Post by mobaz on Jan 13, 2020 14:41:35 GMT -5
The Red Sox discipline coming second won't help, since the MLB can't be seen as playing favorites for the bigger national draw just because the crime is actually less egregious.
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Post by incandenza on Jan 13, 2020 14:43:07 GMT -5
If a star player gets popped doing steroids they don't take away the team's draft picks. If the team had a policy in place to give players steroids and then help them beat the testing system and they caught doing it? Then they almost certainly would take away draft picks. The whole thing with the draft picks is that it seems to work as a deterrent. Longer suspensions wouldn't have hurt the Astros more - any team with any sort of management structure will be able to replace one or two individuals. I'm sure it does work as a deterrent. The death penalty for parking violations would probably work as a deterrent too. It seems to me that suspensions of all the crucial figures involved - GM, manager, whomever - ought to be a sufficient deterrent. (Yes, they're replaceable, but the point is just to prevent the individuals from doing bad actions in the first place.) But I don't know, maybe I'm wrong.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 13, 2020 14:45:37 GMT -5
If you are the Sox, do you have to consider firing Cora, if he's suspended for a year and proven to be instrumental in not one, but two cheating scandals? I like Alex, but man, it's going to be an uphill battle for him to recover any respect around the league when he does come back from his punishment. Respect from who? The fans or the players? I doubt this does much to his credibility with other players. I severely doubt what the Red Sox did was drastically different from what a lot of teams have been doing. Cora, from all accounts, had good relationships with the players and with FO members - I remember reading things like that the scouting and statistical accumen of the Red Sox intersected with Alex Cora. I think his loss from the manager's chair will be felt by the players and I think that kind of thing can have impact. I mean, remember how freely the players played after Bobby V was fired and then later on after John Farrell? Or when Kevin Kennedy first took over or Joe Morgan? Or remember how bad when Joe Kerrigan took over for Jimy Williams despite nobody else wanting to play for him. It'll be interesting to see how the Red Sox respond to the interim manager. Where's Torey Lovullo when you need him?!!
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 13, 2020 14:49:24 GMT -5
If the team had a policy in place to give players steroids and then help them beat the testing system and they caught doing it? Then they almost certainly would take away draft picks. The whole thing with the draft picks is that it seems to work as a deterrent. Longer suspensions wouldn't have hurt the Astros more - any team with any sort of management structure will be able to replace one or two individuals. I'm sure it does work as a deterrent. The death penalty for parking violations would probably work as a deterrent too. Maybe, but it's also true that doing much less than that acts as a deterrent. Remember, baseball isn't just interested in punishing individuals, they're trying to signal to other teams that this isn't worth it. They don't want anyone weighing "hey, maybe picking up 4-8 wins a year is worth the risk of getting the GM and manager suspended the following year." MLB largely cripped the Astros ability to bring in cost-controlled talent for two years. No team is going to want to break rules that are going to result in that penalty.
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Post by incandenza on Jan 13, 2020 15:00:23 GMT -5
I'm sure it does work as a deterrent. The death penalty for parking violations would probably work as a deterrent too. Maybe, but it's also true that doing much less than that acts as a deterrent. Remember, baseball isn't just interested in punishing individuals, they're trying to signal to other teams that this isn't worth it. They don't want anyone weighing "hey, maybe picking up 4-8 wins a year is worth the risk of getting the GM and manager suspended the following year." MLB largely cripped the Astros ability to bring in cost-controlled talent for two years. No team is going to want to break rules that are going to result in that penalty. Okay, I guess I am coming to see this perspective... Still. What a bummer if you're a Houston fan. And an even bigger bummer that Cora apparently turns out to be the typhoid Mary of cheating at baseball.
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 13, 2020 15:07:24 GMT -5
I am a little surprised that Hinch got the same punishment as Luhnow. Maybe all that other stuff involving the Astros front office culture is coloring my perspective too much, but I feel like Hinch's punishment comes down on the harsh side of understandable whereas Luhnow could've been hammered harder.
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Post by kevfc89 on Jan 13, 2020 15:08:46 GMT -5
breaking: Astros have fired Hinch and Luhnow.
Sox are gonna basically end up forced to do the same to Cora : ( Sad times
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Post by stevedillard on Jan 13, 2020 15:09:58 GMT -5
Makes you wonder if the Sox will fire Cora and Dombrowski
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ianrs
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Posts: 2,421
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Post by ianrs on Jan 13, 2020 15:11:59 GMT -5
Wow, thats an absolute bombshell.
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Post by jackiebradleyjrjr on Jan 13, 2020 15:23:42 GMT -5
Wow, thats an absolute bombshell. Absolutely. Wow I’m stunned. I wonder if Cora resigns rather than wait for the inevitable.
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Post by orion09 on Jan 13, 2020 15:24:09 GMT -5
Wow.
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Post by p23w on Jan 13, 2020 15:26:14 GMT -5
Wonder what happens when shrewd players (like Beltran) or coaches pick up "pitch tipping" and pass it along. No cameras, no hi-tech relay equipment. Cheating?
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 13, 2020 15:31:54 GMT -5
Wonder what happens when shrewd players (like Beltran) or coaches pick up "pitch tipping" and pass it along. No cameras, no hi-tech relay equipment. Cheating? I like how you put "pitch tipping" in scare quotes like it's some newfangled thing. Maybe other teams will use "hand signals" to try to combat the other team knowing their strategy! The manager may even use an intermediary "third base coach" to relay signals from the dugout. Of course that isn't cheating, at least not in the sense we're talking about here.
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Post by Don Caballero on Jan 13, 2020 15:47:02 GMT -5
Unbelievable, it was nice while it lasted Alex
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Post by taftreign on Jan 13, 2020 15:49:57 GMT -5
Honestly while the Red Sox offense was less significant I expect the punishment to be equal or more severe. This isn’t about the penalty fitting the crime it’s all about sending a message for Manfred. Cora is doubly indicted. We already moved on from our Gm so we are ahead of the game there. But ultimately the fact that it is a second offense I think will resonate far greater to the commish. It’s just the simple I told you and specifically you as well as the others not to do this. A how dare you disobey me scenario. Let’s just hope Bloom is the man to walk us through this valley. Perhaps this ultimately results in moving a few pieces we wouldn’t have otherwise like Benintendi or Rodriguez within the next year. Perhaps even JD Martinez.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 13, 2020 15:57:18 GMT -5
I kind of scoffed when I think it was the poster Freddysthefuture2003 who said that Cora could be fired, but now I'm thinking he is probably right.
Cora will get at least a year, is involved as a central figure in 2 scandals....John Henry and company didn't give a long leash to Dombrowski after winning the Series. I doubt sentimentality will keep Henry from firing Cora.
Not that it matters anymore, but I wonder if Dombrowski gets tagged in this Red Sox scandal.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 13, 2020 16:00:29 GMT -5
If you are the Sox, do you have to consider firing Cora, if he's suspended for a year and proven to be instrumental in not one, but two cheating scandals? I like Alex, but man, it's going to be an uphill battle for him to recover any respect around the league when he does come back from his punishment. Based on what we're hearing from this report, do you even want him back?
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Post by dirtywater43 on Jan 13, 2020 16:14:25 GMT -5
It's hard to see it not working out exactly this way. Depending on the severity of what they uncover, I'd expect Cora gets at least a year, the Red Sox get fined, and maybe a lesser draft pick penalty (like a #2). The penalties are probably going to be worse for the repeat offending Red Sox.
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Post by Don Caballero on Jan 13, 2020 16:23:14 GMT -5
Based on what we're hearing from this report, do you even want him back? It worked with Belichick.
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Post by p23w on Jan 13, 2020 18:38:42 GMT -5
Wonder what happens when shrewd players (like Beltran) or coaches pick up "pitch tipping" and pass it along. No cameras, no hi-tech relay equipment. Cheating? I like how you put "pitch tipping" in scare quotes like it's some newfangled thing. Maybe other teams will use "hand signals" to try to combat the other team knowing their strategy! The manager may even use an intermediary "third base coach" to relay signals from the dugout. Of course that isn't cheating, at least not in the sense we're talking about here. The end result is the same. "Analytic sign stealing using tech" being substituted for "shrewd observation" by players/coaches. Much ado about nada. IMO. The ONLY difference is you don't have to have "game" to manipulate tech, but you do need "game" to read/interpret signs, location, et al. Was it cheating when every pitch Mariano Rivera threw was a cutter? And the batters all knew.... and it still didn't matter. Don't need tech to know what's coming, sure as heck need game to make something happen. As an aside MLB banned Pete Rose for life, for gambling, now a gambling organization is a leading sponsor of MLB TV. Ginning up controversy is the name of THIS game.
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