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2020 Hall of Fame - Miller, Simmons in, (+Jeter, Walker)
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Post by incandenza on Jan 28, 2020 13:38:51 GMT -5
How on earth is Torii Hunter better than Rolen? How about Carlton Fisk? Does he deserve to be in? It's hard to come up with criteria by which he's better than Rolen. Would you have voted in Ozzie Smith? Barry Larkin? Willie McCovey? Harman Killebrew? (If you'd have voted for any of these, you'd be "lowering the bar" more than a Rolen induction would, from a WAR perspective. (As always, WAR is not the be-all, end-all; it's just shorthand for a certain set of considerations.)) At any rate, like I say I'm a big Hall person myself. But it seems like even a small Hall voter would want to include as least some of the guys in the 60-70 WAR range. On the other hand, even I probably wouldn't vote for everyone above 60. (Maybe everyone above 65 though...) ADD: Robinson Cano might be an interesting case for you. He has 2570 hits and four years left on his contract. It's possible to imagine him scraping out another 430 hits in four seasons to get to 3000, even while he puts up negative WAR and ends up at like 55. (He's at 57 now.) Should he be a Hall of Famer? He'd have hits and longevity on his side, but he'd only get there by being replacement-level or worse for the last several years of his career (which is often what "longevity" amounts to). Ooo... these are good, hard questions. Fun. Ok, first let me say I tend to be agnostic on guys who played before my time. Or just kind of let it go. I agree though... Killebrew is a conundrum. Obviously he rode his home run totals, but I am not convinced otherwise. Still, long time ago. And he was obviously spectacular in a number of seasons. Overall... shrug. Dunno. I’ll say the same for McCovey. Before my time. Better numbers and flash than Rolen, to be sure. For more recent guys... I am definitely in the Ozzie was way overrated camp and would be perfectly happy with him not being in the Hall. Great defensive player, generally couldn’t hit his ass with two hands. Larkin is another meh for me. I am not worked up he is in, but it is squeaker. Fisk was a catcher, at least for a while, so I think he’s in. I mean, you put up career numbers like that having caught a long time? In. I’d likely vote for Mauer for the same reason. Cano is still playing. He probably gets in. But he is a good comp to Rolen. He was a good glove in his prime, and he has much better offensive statistics, with more to come. If he retired now, I am not a certain yes, but a likely yes. But he is definitely better than Rolen. Has better accumulation and a better prime (he had a 5 year stretch where he was top-6 in MVP every year and averaged 7.3 WAR). Edit: Cano also will be interesting to see. You say he’ll be replacement level, but it was only two years ago he was over 3 WAR in half a season. He could make debate moot with one or two more good seasons. Yeah, that's possible with Cano. Even so he'll almost certainly end up behind Rolen in WAR. I actually was never that impressed with him defensively, even in his heyday. Nonetheless I was surprised at how impressive his HoF case looks when I checked out his numbers; he actually had a stronger peak than I remembered. As for Killebrew... well, I'd vote him in on WAR grounds anyway, but aside from that, he retired with, I believe, the 7th-most homers all time. Even post-steroid era, he's still 13th. And doing something outstandingly well, even if the overall numbers aren't there, is one reason I might look past WAR totals. Likewise, I'd vote in Mariano, just for being unequivocally the best at what he did, even though I'm generally anti-reliever when it comes to HoF voting. I'd definitely vote in Ozzie Smith, and I'd even consider Vizquel, at least, despite the paltry WAR total, not even because his defense was unparalleled or anything but because the aesthetics of his defense made him so pleasurable to watch. In my view that ought to count for something.
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Post by manfred on Jan 28, 2020 13:49:01 GMT -5
Ooo... these are good, hard questions. Fun. Ok, first let me say I tend to be agnostic on guys who played before my time. Or just kind of let it go. I agree though... Killebrew is a conundrum. Obviously he rode his home run totals, but I am not convinced otherwise. Still, long time ago. And he was obviously spectacular in a number of seasons. Overall... shrug. Dunno. I’ll say the same for McCovey. Before my time. Better numbers and flash than Rolen, to be sure. For more recent guys... I am definitely in the Ozzie was way overrated camp and would be perfectly happy with him not being in the Hall. Great defensive player, generally couldn’t hit his ass with two hands. Larkin is another meh for me. I am not worked up he is in, but it is squeaker. Fisk was a catcher, at least for a while, so I think he’s in. I mean, you put up career numbers like that having caught a long time? In. I’d likely vote for Mauer for the same reason. Cano is still playing. He probably gets in. But he is a good comp to Rolen. He was a good glove in his prime, and he has much better offensive statistics, with more to come. If he retired now, I am not a certain yes, but a likely yes. But he is definitely better than Rolen. Has better accumulation and a better prime (he had a 5 year stretch where he was top-6 in MVP every year and averaged 7.3 WAR). Edit: Cano also will be interesting to see. You say he’ll be replacement level, but it was only two years ago he was over 3 WAR in half a season. He could make debate moot with one or two more good seasons. Yeah, that's possible with Cano. Even so he'll almost certainly end up behind Rolen in WAR. I actually was never that impressed with him defensively, even in his heyday. Nonetheless I was surprised at how impressive his HoF case looks when I checked out his numbers; he actually had a stronger peak than I remembered. As for Killebrew... well, I'd vote him in on WAR grounds anyway, but aside from that, he retired with, I believe, the 7th-most homers all time. Even post-steroid era, he's still 13th. And doing something outstandingly well, even if the overall numbers aren't there, is one reason I might look past WAR totals. Likewise, I'd vote in Mariano, just for being unequivocally the best at what he did, even though I'm generally anti-reliever when it comes to HoF voting. I'd definitely vote in Ozzie Smith, and I'd even consider Vizquel, at least, despite the paltry WAR total, not even because his defense was unparalleled or anything but because the aesthetics of his defense made him so pleasurable to watch. In my view that ought to count for something. Now you sound just like me! I couldn’t agree more. I think your killebrew argument is just. As I said, I struggle with older players. Home runs are so devalued now that it takes work to remember a different scale. (I was young, but I remember with awe George Foster’s 50 home run season... it was like a miracle!). And I agree on aesthetics... sometimes there are guys who play beautifully and deserve credit for that (and shortstop is clearly a position where diminished offense is most forgivable). I’d vote Ozzie, in the end, because people thought he was so great. I always hated him, but I’d have to let it go, I guess. But I still think he is overrated. (I remember thinking Templeton was clearly better when they were traded.... whoops.).
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