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Post by jimed14 on Feb 7, 2020 10:58:04 GMT -5
Merloni was directly hearing a message from the Sox camp and put out what he was told. Reporting what he was told. He wasn't making his own point there. Unless we have a reason to think Merloni is lying for some reason? Edit- Maybe it didn't come from the ownership, but someone from that front office believes this and they'll still look bad regardless. We didn't doubt Merloni when he was talking about the Sox offering 10/300 to Mookie and he countered with 12/420. This is like saying 'that parent looks really bad because they said they didn't think their kid did it' after their child is convicted of a crime. Of course they didn't think they did it. And unless told, how would they know? Based on Manfred's comments, it seems MLB realized there's a flaw in how video rooms are being used. I imagine that if you have immediate access to video of the game from multiple angles, it would be hard to find a team without a player who uses that to pickup the catcher's signs. This is what makes me so annoyed at the whole situation. Of course teams were going to use the room. It doesn't take anything other than common sense to realize that. And to actually believe that all teams were not doing it is freaking insanely stupid. If MLB cared or was not grossly incompetent, they would have put safeguards in place from day one so that the rooms could not be used how they were used.
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Post by pedroelgrande on Feb 7, 2020 11:07:56 GMT -5
If they lose a 1st round pick they are done for. Even less reason not to just keep going for it. What does this even mean? The organization can never recover from losing one draft pick? Would they have been "done for" if they had lost the first round picks they used on Trey Ball, Deven Marrero, or Blake Swihart? Maybe done for is not the right word but this “retooling” process is gonna take longer. The farm system is lacking right now so it means less pieces to have at your disposal. The loss of a 1st round pick will affect your whole draft with cap money you will lose its not about just one player. With the way the system is they can’t afford to be losing cap money.
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Post by vermontsox1 on Feb 7, 2020 11:29:41 GMT -5
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Post by wcsoxfan on Feb 7, 2020 12:27:02 GMT -5
This is like saying 'that parent looks really bad because they said they didn't think their kid did it' after their child is convicted of a crime. Of course they didn't think they did it. And unless told, how would they know? Based on Manfred's comments, it seems MLB realized there's a flaw in how video rooms are being used. I imagine that if you have immediate access to video of the game from multiple angles, it would be hard to find a team without a player who uses that to pickup the catcher's signs. This is what makes me so annoyed at the whole situation. Of course teams were going to use the room. It doesn't take anything other than common sense to realize that. And to actually believe that all teams were not doing it is freaking insanely stupid. If MLB cared or was not grossly incompetent, they would have put safeguards in place from day one so that the rooms could not be used how they were used. There's an easy solution: get rid of the video rooms. This would require the elimination of the manager's challenge and would hopefully lead to MLB adopting a replay system like NCAA football rather than the NFL (which is the worst replay system in sports).
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Post by fenwaydouble on Feb 7, 2020 12:29:28 GMT -5
This is what makes me so annoyed at the whole situation. Of course teams were going to use the room. It doesn't take anything other than common sense to realize that. And to actually believe that all teams were not doing it is freaking insanely stupid. If MLB cared or was not grossly incompetent, they would have put safeguards in place from day one so that the rooms could not be used how they were used. There's an easy solution: get rid of the video rooms. This would require the elimination of the manager's challenge and would hopefully lead to MLB adopting a replay system like NCAA football rather than the NFL (which is the worst replay system in sports). Though you'd still have the problem of players sneaking around with live feeds on their cellphones. Luckily, there's an even easier solution: get rid of signs altogether and use electronic signaling.
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Post by kevfc89 on Feb 7, 2020 14:56:14 GMT -5
That's good to hear if true, but wasn't it an (anonymous) former Sox player/whistleblower who got the Sox investigation started by talking to Drellich?
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Post by wcsoxfan on Feb 7, 2020 15:53:03 GMT -5
There's an easy solution: get rid of the video rooms. This would require the elimination of the manager's challenge and would hopefully lead to MLB adopting a replay system like NCAA football rather than the NFL (which is the worst replay system in sports). Though you'd still have the problem of players sneaking around with live feeds on their cellphones. Luckily, there's an even easier solution: get rid of signs altogether and use electronic signaling. But that's an overt act that, if done in the dugout, violates the rules already. You expand the 'no technology rules' to the clubhouse and if a player leaves the dugout/clubhouse/bullpen they're considered removed from the game and not allowed back in. Electronic signaling (this is vague btw) opens up a whole other can of worms. You'll have the batters trying to hear the catcher's words/signals along with people with the boom mics positioned to catch any audio. What it comes down to is that there will always be someone pushing the boundaries, you just can't put the tools to cheat right in front of the players and walk away thinking nothing bad will happen. Best way to stop it is for baseball's unwritten rules to go away so each team knows that if they cheat, someone involved will be on another team next year and will turn them in or take advantage of their cheating. If they know they will get caught every time, then they will stop.
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Post by fenwaydouble on Feb 7, 2020 16:09:43 GMT -5
Though you'd still have the problem of players sneaking around with live feeds on their cellphones. Luckily, there's an even easier solution: get rid of signs altogether and use electronic signaling. But that's an overt act that, if done in the dugout, violates the rules already. You expand the 'no technology rules' to the clubhouse and if a player leaves the dugout/clubhouse/bullpen they're considered removed from the game and not allowed back in. Electronic signaling (this is vague btw) opens up a whole other can of worms. You'll have the batters trying to hear the catcher's words/signals along with people with the boom mics positioned to catch any audio. What it comes down to is that there will always be someone pushing the boundaries, you just can't put the tools to cheat right in front of the players and walk away thinking nothing bad will happen. Best way to stop it is for baseball's unwritten rules to go away so each team knows that if they cheat, someone involved will be on another team next year and will turn them in or take advantage of their cheating. If they know they will get caught every time, then they will stop. Getting rid of technology would work, except that it's going to be impossible to do. Sneaking a cell phone into the clubhouse is just always going to be ridiculously easy. If the catcher uses a little wristwatch or buzzer or something to non-verbally signal to the pitcher, then all this goes away. I suppose people could try to hack that signal, but that's way less likely than a player sneaking a TV feed on their phone, and it would also probably be a literal crime, so my guess is it wouldn't be an issue.
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Post by baseballlifer34 on Feb 7, 2020 16:09:51 GMT -5
Merloni was directly hearing a message from the Sox camp and put out what he was told. Reporting what he was told. He wasn't making his own point there. Unless we have a reason to think Merloni is lying for some reason? Edit- Maybe it didn't come from the ownership, but someone from that front office believes this and they'll still look bad regardless. We didn't doubt Merloni when he was talking about the Sox offering 10/300 to Mookie and he countered with 12/420. This is like saying 'that parent looks really bad because they said they didn't think their kid did it' after their child is convicted of a crime. Of course they didn't think they did it. And unless told, how would they know? Based on Manfred's comments, it seems MLB realized there's a flaw in how video rooms are being used. I imagine that if you have immediate access to video of the game from multiple angles, it would be hard to find a team without a player who uses that to pickup the catcher's signs. I'm not sure what your point was. The whole Sox organization is convicted of the crime. The players, the front office, even some coaches didn't think there was any wrong doing. Everyone would be looking bad based off what they said prior if they get hit hard with this. I'll be glad if they get light punishment (like a 4th round pick taking away).
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 7, 2020 17:28:38 GMT -5
This is like saying 'that parent looks really bad because they said they didn't think their kid did it' after their child is convicted of a crime. Of course they didn't think they did it. And unless told, how would they know? Based on Manfred's comments, it seems MLB realized there's a flaw in how video rooms are being used. I imagine that if you have immediate access to video of the game from multiple angles, it would be hard to find a team without a player who uses that to pickup the catcher's signs. I'm not sure what your point was. The whole Sox organization is convicted of the crime. The players, the front office, even some coaches didn't think there was any wrong doing. Everyone would be looking bad based off what they said prior if they get hit hard with this. I'll be glad if they get light punishment (like a 4th round pick taking away). Oh, was the investigation completed and I didn't realize it?
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Post by baseballlifer34 on Feb 7, 2020 17:40:31 GMT -5
I'm not sure what your point was. The whole Sox organization is convicted of the crime. The players, the front office, even some coaches didn't think there was any wrong doing. Everyone would be looking bad based off what they said prior if they get hit hard with this. I'll be glad if they get light punishment (like a 4th round pick taking away). Oh, was the investigation completed and I didn't realize it? I was referencing the Bob Nightingale tweet. If the Sox get off easy, then they will be proved to be right in this case. If they lose something like a first round pick and get hit hard, then they will look like hypocrites, which was my point all along.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Feb 7, 2020 19:59:17 GMT -5
Insane stuff
I hope we didn’t take it this far lol
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Post by kevfc89 on Feb 7, 2020 20:04:18 GMT -5
How stupid does Manfred look? he didnt think all this information would continue to leak out? This new report doesn't even mention Cora or Hinch, and reveals this was a system created by the front office and then the team modified it with the trash banging to make it easier to transmit the results.
Remember, Manfred's original report said that this was entirely Cora and player driven, and made no mention of this Codebreaker operation or that Luhnow knew or directed anything. Manfred is clearly incompetent and was just trying to cover this up quick and try to sweep it all under the rug.
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mobaz
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Post by mobaz on Feb 7, 2020 20:22:15 GMT -5
Worst Commissioner in Sports title belt has definitely been yanked from Goodell. Remember back when Bettman was consensus worst, and now somehow he's second best?
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Feb 7, 2020 20:27:41 GMT -5
Hinch deferring to the commissioners findings on the buzzer question is a baaaaaaaaaaaaaad look
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Post by kevfc89 on Feb 7, 2020 20:31:55 GMT -5
this scandal is going to go right back to the forefront now, have to imagine a lot of players going to speak out again.
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Post by orion09 on Feb 7, 2020 21:14:45 GMT -5
The report states that the scheme was devised by the Astros analytics department during the 2016 season.
I KNEW Alex Cora was a scapegoat. They fingered him because he was no longer on the team. That’s not to say he wasn’t aware of the scheme or shouldn’t be held culpable. But he was clearly used as the fall guy. The scheme originated higher up, and seemingly before he was even on the team.
I will be PISSED if his penalty is more severe than Hinch and Luhlow’s.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Feb 7, 2020 21:26:43 GMT -5
The report states that the scheme was devised by the Astros analytics department during the 2016 season. I KNEW Alex Cora was a scapegoat. They fingered him because he was no longer on the team. That’s not to say he wasn’t aware of the scheme or shouldn’t be held culpable. But he was clearly used as the fall guy. The scheme originated higher up, and seemingly before he was even on the team. I will be PISSED if his penalty is more severe than Hinch and Luhlow’s. Already is unfortunately, and that’s absolutely pathetic. A true miscarriage of justice
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Post by soxfaninnj on Feb 7, 2020 21:27:14 GMT -5
So Rob Manfred lied about the whole thing or is he that incompetent ??
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Feb 7, 2020 21:28:16 GMT -5
So Rob Manfred lied about the whole thing or is he that incompetent ?? Probably a blend of both The goodell cocktail
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Gwell55
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Post by Gwell55 on Feb 7, 2020 21:36:16 GMT -5
The report states that the scheme was devised by the Astros analytics department during the 2016 season. I KNEW Alex Cora was a scapegoat. They fingered him because he was no longer on the team. That’s not to say he wasn’t aware of the scheme or shouldn’t be held culpable. But he was clearly used as the fall guy. The scheme originated higher up, and seemingly before he was even on the team. I will be PISSED if his penalty is more severe than Hinch and Luhlow’s. Already is unfortunately, and that’s absolutely pathetic. A true miscarriage of justice Didn't Manfred state something along the lines that both Cora and Beltran were the two most responsible? Seems they both were gone from the Astros and both got fingered because of that?
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Post by dirtdog on Feb 8, 2020 22:46:15 GMT -5
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Post by borisman on Feb 9, 2020 10:19:28 GMT -5
Unless MLB starts investigating some other teams I say MLB should go light on the Sox. I'll be surprised if they do though. I've always expected a harsh, about a third of what Houston received, penalty so I hope the article is correct and we only get fined and maybe lose two 3rd rounders.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Feb 9, 2020 10:49:49 GMT -5
FYI, that's just an article that links to the USA Today article from Friday.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Feb 9, 2020 11:53:44 GMT -5
Whenever the dark arts and Voldemort are involved you have to pay attention
Astros did some crazy stuff
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