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Red Sox linked to using video replay room illegally
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 14, 2020 14:00:54 GMT -5
If they get the same draft pick penalty that Houston got, they should blow up the Luxury Tax goal. Of course, with all the top FAs gone now, probably moot, but still. This is a joke that MLB is apparently not investigating all teams but just the ones a reporter drew attention to. It’s headline chasing. Is there any evidence that MLB is not investigating the other 6-7 teams? If they are, they've done a good job of keeping it quiet. I'd be surprised. I mean wasn't there reports the Yankees were doing similar things? Couldn't have just been Boston or even just the Yankees if they did. I would guess it was league wide. This is something mostly done through players (with help from willing bench coaches apparently) and players are transient, so I would think this kind of thing would spread throughout the league.
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Post by congusgambler33 on Jan 14, 2020 16:28:44 GMT -5
I would like to point out that it didn't work very well this past year. There is so much hammering Cora, saying MLB warned them and he just defied them regardless. that seems pretty stupid to do. I would really rather hear the facts and not get all drawn into how much the Sox should be punished. I recall Cora saying that the best move the Yankees made was hiring Beltran as their hitting coach. HMMMM...Wonder why? It is all speculation and the mind can run wild with all kinds of scenarios, but the truth has yet to be told. All we see is sources say it will be severe. what sources? who? No..I will wait for the final verdict and not get tied up with endless speculation. If Cora was thar foolish to go ahead after he was warned about it then we are cooked, but like I said earlier..It didn't work too well this past year.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 14, 2020 17:13:52 GMT -5
If they get the same draft pick penalty that Houston got, they should blow up the Luxury Tax goal. Of course, with all the top FAs gone now, probably moot, but still. This is a joke that MLB is apparently not investigating all teams but just the ones a reporter drew attention to. It’s headline chasing. How unjust that a team would be singled out merely because they were credibly accused of wrongdoing.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jan 14, 2020 17:36:39 GMT -5
I would like to point out that it didn't work very well this past year. There is so much hammering Cora, saying MLB warned them and he just defied them regardless. that seems pretty stupid to do. I would really rather hear the facts and not get all drawn into how much the Sox should be punished. I recall Cora saying that the best move the Yankees made was hiring Beltran as their hitting coach. HMMMM...Wonder why? It is all speculation and the mind can run wild with all kinds of scenarios, but the truth has yet to be told. All we see is sources say it will be severe. what sources? who? No..I will wait for the final verdict and not get tied up with endless speculation. If Cora was thar foolish to go ahead after he was warned about it then we are cooked, but like I said earlier..It didn't work too well this past year. 1 - As pointed out to me, they still had a very good year OPS-wise. Stealing signs impacts hitting, but doesn't help with garbage pitching. 2 - I believe there was a rule change where they stopped using live feeds, but rather had 10-15 second delays which curbed much of this. 3 - I thought Carlos Beltran was just a special advisor to Cashman? 4 - No players, current or former, will be in trouble for this, despite actively partaking (kind of surprising, but it really comes down to the coaching) 5 - Unless there's a credible source or speculation that Carlos Beltran was cheating as a coach there's no reason to punish him. Could everyone be cheating? Sure. Is there credible enough evidence to prosecute? That's the difference here. The Red Sox were caught. The Yankees/Mets, to my knowledge, have not. Cora being pinned as the "mastermind" of the scandal in Houston doesn't help the Red Sox situation. It brings more attention to the Red Sox. I don't know why people keep arguing this point. It doesn't matter what other players/teams have theoretically done. The Red Sox were caught. End of story. We can use other teams as an example of what a fair punishment would be, that's about it. Also, I'm pretty sure Ken Rosenthal and Jeff Passan are very good at what they do and are very credible. Edit: We also don't know if other teams are being investigated and I'm sure baseball doesn't want to leak any organization in question until there's more information. I don't think they want to let it be known they're investigating the Rays for cheating and then later exonerate them. It creates unnecessary damage.
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Post by cotuitfan on Jan 14, 2020 19:37:33 GMT -5
Cora out
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Post by congusgambler33 on Jan 14, 2020 19:59:07 GMT -5
Not a big surprise. Even if found not guilty, he would have trouble managing at this point.
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Post by artfuldodger on Jan 15, 2020 6:39:46 GMT -5
While I respect Cora, it was appropriate that he was fired. I also respect Dombrowski but do not know how he has avoided criticism having been the leader while there has been two cheating issues with 2 different managers under his watch.
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 15, 2020 9:01:10 GMT -5
I would like to point out that it didn't work very well this past year. There is so much hammering Cora, saying MLB warned them and he just defied them regardless. that seems pretty stupid to do. I would really rather hear the facts and not get all drawn into how much the Sox should be punished. I recall Cora saying that the best move the Yankees made was hiring Beltran as their hitting coach. HMMMM...Wonder why? It is all speculation and the mind can run wild with all kinds of scenarios, but the truth has yet to be told. All we see is sources say it will be severe. what sources? who? No..I will wait for the final verdict and not get tied up with endless speculation. If Cora was thar foolish to go ahead after he was warned about it then we are cooked, but like I said earlier..It didn't work too well this past year. Out of 30 teams, the Red Sox ranked third in MLB in batting average, third in OBP, fifth in SLG, first in hits, first in doubles, and fourth in runs scored.
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 15, 2020 9:03:21 GMT -5
I would like to point out that it didn't work very well this past year. There is so much hammering Cora, saying MLB warned them and he just defied them regardless. that seems pretty stupid to do. I would really rather hear the facts and not get all drawn into how much the Sox should be punished. I recall Cora saying that the best move the Yankees made was hiring Beltran as their hitting coach. HMMMM...Wonder why? It is all speculation and the mind can run wild with all kinds of scenarios, but the truth has yet to be told. All we see is sources say it will be severe. what sources? who? No..I will wait for the final verdict and not get tied up with endless speculation. If Cora was thar foolish to go ahead after he was warned about it then we are cooked, but like I said earlier..It didn't work too well this past year. Out of 30 teams, the Red Sox ranked third in MLB in batting average, third in OBP, fifth in SLG, first in hits, first in doubles, and fourth in runs scored. Given that there have been no accusations of stealing the signs of every pitch and only when runners were on 2nd, wouldn't those stats be more relevant to this point?
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 15, 2020 9:21:43 GMT -5
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 15, 2020 9:33:05 GMT -5
Out of 30 teams, the Red Sox ranked third in MLB in batting average, third in OBP, fifth in SLG, first in hits, first in doubles, and fourth in runs scored. Given that there have been no accusations of stealing the signs of every pitch and only when runners were on 2nd, wouldn't those stats be more relevant to this point? Heh, I think you're inferring more to my post than I intended, which was "they hit really well last year, they were at or near the top of a lot of important offensive categories." Their trouble this year was preventing runs, not scoring them.
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Post by Guidas on Jan 15, 2020 9:34:09 GMT -5
If they get the same draft pick penalty that Houston got, they should blow up the Luxury Tax goal. Of course, with all the top FAs gone now, probably moot, but still. This is a joke that MLB is apparently not investigating all teams but just the ones a reporter drew attention to. It’s headline chasing. How unjust that a team would be singled out merely because they were credibly accused of wrongdoing. Hey, if they drug test all the players for cheating, then they should investigate all the teams with video replay rooms (i.e. ALL the teams) for cheating on the potential of also performing this (ridiculous) sign-stealing infraction, especially with the mobility of players and coaches in the game today.
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 15, 2020 9:43:25 GMT -5
I have to imagine that every team knew or was very suspicious of the Astros the entire time they were doing it. Can anyone think of a reason that a single game wasn't interrupted with the manager going to the umpire to protest and raise a huge stink about it and/or making comments to the press or complaining to the league unless they were all guilty? nypost.com/2020/01/14/the-panic-moment-astros-cheating-players-thought-they-were-busted/
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mobaz
Veteran
Posts: 2,797
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Post by mobaz on Jan 15, 2020 9:44:03 GMT -5
This is going to be just like steroids where only the first teams caught (a la Mitchell report) because someone talked first and loudest will really see the brunt of the pain. But everyone knows every team has someone doing something. There was a Brian McNamee on every team. Heck we still have that issue as a team employee gave Tyler Skaggs drugs that killed him.
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Post by stevedillard on Jan 15, 2020 9:53:01 GMT -5
This is going to be just like steroids where only the first teams caught (a la Mitchell report) because someone talked first and loudest will really see the brunt of the pain. But everyone knows every team has someone doing something. There was a Brian McNamee on every team. Heck we still have that issue as a team employee gave Tyler Skaggs drugs that killed him. Unlike steroids, this system inherently requires all players to know of it. And with players changing teams, it becomes an open secret (as we see with Logan Morrison and Mike Fiers). I can only conclude that everyone felt it was sufficiently not-a biggie that they did this. And that other teams must have known of it and not called it out confirms that this "signn stealing" was viewed as something that needed to be managed within the game, not called out to the principal.
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Post by Guidas on Jan 15, 2020 9:53:53 GMT -5
Cora talking about sign stealing here. But investigation into NYYs?....Nah.
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 15, 2020 9:55:49 GMT -5
The obsession with the Yankees here isn't a good look.
"I got caught for breaking rules and they didn't" is whining when a cop nabs you for a speeding ticket and it's whining here. In fact it's worse here because usually when you get caught speeding you actually do know that other people were speeding. In this case, people just want to externalize their tribe's bad deeds by claiming they TOTALLY KNOW that team they hate does it to. And maybe they do, at some level! But it doesn't matter. If the Yankees cheated and got away with it, that's unfair to a team that didn't cheat, not the Red Sox and Astros.
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 15, 2020 10:02:14 GMT -5
The obsession with the Yankees here isn't a good look. "I got caught for breaking rules and they didn't" is whining when a cop nabs you for a speeding ticket and it's whining here. In fact it's worse here because usually when you get caught speeding you actually do know that other people were speeding. In this case, people just want to externalize their tribe's bad deeds by claiming they TOTALLY KNOW that team they hate does it to. And maybe they do, at some level! But it doesn't matter. If the Yankees cheated and got away with it, that's unfair to a team that didn't cheat, not the Red Sox and Astros. There is no justice unless the law is applied equally to all.
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 15, 2020 10:07:33 GMT -5
The obsession with the Yankees here isn't a good look. "I got caught for breaking rules and they didn't" is whining when a cop nabs you for a speeding ticket and it's whining here. In fact it's worse here because usually when you get caught speeding you actually do know that other people were speeding. In this case, people just want to externalize their tribe's bad deeds by claiming they TOTALLY KNOW that team they hate does it to. And maybe they do, at some level! But it doesn't matter. If the Yankees cheated and got away with it, that's unfair to a team that didn't cheat, not the Red Sox and Astros. There is no justice unless the law is applied equally to all. Indeed. But the remedy for that isn't applying it to nobody. When OJ got off, nobody was all "you know who I feel bad for? Those double-murderers who actually got punished." Is it ***unjust*** to the other double-murderers? Yes! But we're trying to have a society here. We punish the rule-breakers that we catch, we try to be diligent, and we accept punishment. If the Yankees cheated and got away with that (and the evidence of that seems to be people saying "OF COURSE THEY CHEAT"), then the teams that should be upset about it are the ones that were playing by the rules and lost to them. If that's the case then Joe Mauer should get to kick all of them in the teeth. But fans of the team that cheated getting pissy because they want another team to have cheated in order to feel better about their own team's cheating? Nah. EDIT: Also, too: to all those saying that the Astros and Red Sox got caught because they face the most media scrutiny... compared to the New York Yankees? Again, nah...
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Post by orion09 on Jan 15, 2020 11:02:17 GMT -5
I absolutely don’t care that the Red Sox were stealing signs, and I’m not afraid to say it. The sin here was not using technology to steal signs - it was the stupidity of the Astros’ scheme. If they weren’t banging on cans, no one would be the wiser, and no one would care. Frankly I’m surprised Cora was so dumb. It’s just a shame - he was the best and most likeable manager since Francona.
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Post by orion09 on Jan 15, 2020 11:14:46 GMT -5
There is no justice unless the law is applied equally to all. Indeed. But the remedy for that isn't applying it to nobody. When OJ got off, nobody was all "you know who I feel bad for? Those double-murderers who actually got punished." Is it ***unjust*** to the other double-murderers? Yes! But we're trying to have a society here. We punish the rule-breakers that we catch, we try to be diligent, and we accept punishment. If the Yankees cheated and got away with that (and the evidence of that seems to be people saying "OF COURSE THEY CHEAT"), then the teams that should be upset about it are the ones that were playing by the rules and lost to them. If that's the case then Joe Mauer should get to kick all of them in the teeth. But fans of the team that cheated getting pissy because they want another team to have cheated in order to feel better about their own team's cheating? Nah. EDIT: Also, too: to all those saying that the Astros and Red Sox got caught because they face the most media scrutiny... compared to the New York Yankees? Again, nah... This has nothing to do with maintaining an ethical society - it’s all about maintaing the league’s image. Two very different things. Everyone knew this was going on, and none of it was an issue until it made the league look bad. The punishments are not being applied relative to the crime - they’re being applied relative to the PR implications - and since Cora was stupid enough to be publicly implicated in two schemes, he gets the hammer. If the league’s investigation implicates 3-4 other teams, and similar punishments are handed down, it’s a different story. But do you really think this is a good faith investigation? Are they going to go out of their way to investigate other teams and create a bigger mess? Not unless there are public revelations that force their hand. And that has nothing to do with justice and everything to do with expediency.
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Post by Gwell55 on Jan 15, 2020 11:32:25 GMT -5
The obsession with the Yankees here isn't a good look. "I got caught for breaking rules and they didn't" is whining when a cop nabs you for a speeding ticket and it's whining here. In fact it's worse here because usually when you get caught speeding you actually do know that other people were speeding. In this case, people just want to externalize their tribe's bad deeds by claiming they TOTALLY KNOW that team they hate does it to. And maybe they do, at some level! But it doesn't matter. If the Yankees cheated and got away with it, that's unfair to a team that didn't cheat, not the Red Sox and Astros. How did the Sox get caught again? It seems to me that the Astros also were caught when an outside or ex-member ratted them out. Hmm so the Redsox got caught up in this because of the Astros investigation and somebody cpmmented ... If the other teams get caught because the investigation and the ratting out by "sources" is just how all this started. Mlb has to save face or this can explode in their face. If these sources come out in the media they have to be investigated. I don't think this is over yet.
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 15, 2020 11:35:14 GMT -5
Indeed. But the remedy for that isn't applying it to nobody. When OJ got off, nobody was all "you know who I feel bad for? Those double-murderers who actually got punished." Is it ***unjust*** to the other double-murderers? Yes! But we're trying to have a society here. We punish the rule-breakers that we catch, we try to be diligent, and we accept punishment. If the Yankees cheated and got away with that (and the evidence of that seems to be people saying "OF COURSE THEY CHEAT"), then the teams that should be upset about it are the ones that were playing by the rules and lost to them. If that's the case then Joe Mauer should get to kick all of them in the teeth. But fans of the team that cheated getting pissy because they want another team to have cheated in order to feel better about their own team's cheating? Nah. EDIT: Also, too: to all those saying that the Astros and Red Sox got caught because they face the most media scrutiny... compared to the New York Yankees? Again, nah... This has nothing to do with maintaining an ethical society - it’s all about maintaing the league’s image. Two very different things. Everyone knew this was going on, and none of it was an issue until it made the league look bad. The punishments are not being applied relative to the crime - they’re being applied relative to the PR implications - and since Cora was stupid enough to be publicly implicated in two schemes, he gets the hammer. If the league’s investigation implicates 3-4 other teams, and similar punishments are handed down, it’s a different story. But do you really think this is a good faith investigation? Are they going to go out of their way to investigate other teams and create a bigger mess? Not unless there are public revelations that force their hand. And that has nothing to do with justice and everything to do with expediency. What is "a good faith investigation?" Again, if you get pulled over for speeding, they don't do a "good faith investigation" to see if there are other speeders. My guess is that any level of "good faith investigation" that doesn't return a "The Yankees are as cheaty as the Red Sox" isn't going to be enough for people. Your standard for whether this was fair seems to be whether other teams get punished for the crimes that there isn't any evidence that they committed. That's not a feasible standard. If someone else gets away with cheating and you don't? Them's the breaks, you paid a price for cheating. If a professor gets a tip that someone plagiarized his thesis, he doesn't need to investigate every thesis handed in that semester and hold them to the same scrutiny. And in truth, almost all laws are applied unequally. If there's a real bias inherent in that - if, for example, poor people are spending time incarcerated when rich people are not for the same crimes - that's actual injustice. The Red Sox cheated in a really egregious and obvious way and left the door open to get caught. Those enforcing the law are under no obligation to investigate 28 other teams before deciding on what punishment to give out in this specific case of rulebreaking.
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Post by orion09 on Jan 15, 2020 11:53:23 GMT -5
This has nothing to do with maintaining an ethical society - it’s all about maintaing the league’s image. Two very different things. Everyone knew this was going on, and none of it was an issue until it made the league look bad. The punishments are not being applied relative to the crime - they’re being applied relative to the PR implications - and since Cora was stupid enough to be publicly implicated in two schemes, he gets the hammer. If the league’s investigation implicates 3-4 other teams, and similar punishments are handed down, it’s a different story. But do you really think this is a good faith investigation? Are they going to go out of their way to investigate other teams and create a bigger mess? Not unless there are public revelations that force their hand. And that has nothing to do with justice and everything to do with expediency. What is "a good faith investigation?" Again, if you get pulled over for speeding, they don't do a "good faith investigation" to see if there are other speeders. My guess is that any level of "good faith investigation" that doesn't return a "The Yankees are as cheaty as the Red Sox" isn't going to be enough for people. Your standard for whether this was fair seems to be whether other teams get punished for the crimes that there isn't any evidence that they committed. That's not a feasible standard. If someone else gets away with cheating and you don't? Them's the breaks, you paid a price for cheating. If a professor gets a tip that someone plagiarized his thesis, he doesn't need to investigate every thesis handed in that semester and hold them to the same scrutiny. And in truth, almost all laws are applied unequally. If there's a real bias inherent in that - if, for example, poor people are spending time incarcerated when rich people are not for the same crimes - that's actual injustice. The Red Sox cheated in a really egregious and obvious way and left the door open to get caught. Those enforcing the law are under no obligation to investigate 28 other teams before deciding on what punishment to give out in this specific case of rulebreaking. Those enforcing the law aren’t under any obligation to investigate 28 other teams before deciding on a punishment - absolutely not. But if, following the punishment, those enforcing the law get a tip that 14 of those 28 teams were doing the same thing, or something similar, they have an obligation to investigate those claims in good faith or the whole concept of justice and fairness falls apart. I’m suggesting that there was a league-wide detent, where everyone (or anyone who cared about winning) was stealing signs by whatever means they thought they could get away with, and so no one was willing to point fingers. The league almost certainly knew about it to some degree, but wasn’t going to do anything as long as it didn’t create a PR problem for them. Now that the detent is broken, I’m sure the Red Sox and Astros will be perfectly willing to implicate the other teams who were doing the same thing. The league has a responsibility to follow up on any other tips with the same vigor, and what I’m saying is I don’t think they will, because it will create a bigger mess. That’s inherently unfair.
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Post by orion09 on Jan 15, 2020 11:57:53 GMT -5
To use your analogy, it’s like everyone in a class was plagiarizing their theses, and the professor was willing to turn a blind eye as long as the dean didn’t find out. Well, one of the students’ girlfriends ratted him out, and the professor had to fail him to save face. That student was mad that he got punished when everyone was doing it with the professor’s implicit approval, and gave the professor a list of the other cheaters in the class, but the professor refused to investigate them since it would look even worse if the dean found out that everyone in the professor’s class was a cheater.
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