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Red Sox linked to using video replay room illegally
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Post by fenwaydouble on Jan 15, 2020 12:04:24 GMT -5
This has nothing to do with maintaining an ethical society - it’s all about maintaing the league’s image. Two very different things. Everyone knew this was going on, and none of it was an issue until it made the league look bad. The punishments are not being applied relative to the crime - they’re being applied relative to the PR implications - and since Cora was stupid enough to be publicly implicated in two schemes, he gets the hammer. If the league’s investigation implicates 3-4 other teams, and similar punishments are handed down, it’s a different story. But do you really think this is a good faith investigation? Are they going to go out of their way to investigate other teams and create a bigger mess? Not unless there are public revelations that force their hand. And that has nothing to do with justice and everything to do with expediency. What is "a good faith investigation?" Again, if you get pulled over for speeding, they don't do a "good faith investigation" to see if there are other speeders. My guess is that any level of "good faith investigation" that doesn't return a "The Yankees are as cheaty as the Red Sox" isn't going to be enough for people. Your standard for whether this was fair seems to be whether other teams get punished for the crimes that there isn't any evidence that they committed. That's not a feasible standard. If someone else gets away with cheating and you don't? Them's the breaks, you paid a price for cheating. If a professor gets a tip that someone plagiarized his thesis, he doesn't need to investigate every thesis handed in that semester and hold them to the same scrutiny. And in truth, almost all laws are applied unequally. If there's a real bias inherent in that - if, for example, poor people are spending time incarcerated when rich people are not for the same crimes - that's actual injustice. The Red Sox cheated in a really egregious and obvious way and left the door open to get caught. Those enforcing the law are under no obligation to investigate 28 other teams before deciding on what punishment to give out in this specific case of rulebreaking. Your speeding analogy doesn't work, though, because the league is no longer punishing this as a minor offense, but as a huge one. If the crime is so big that guys are getting suspended for a year or more and teams are losing multiple draft picks, then the league should be doing their best to really enforce the rules rather than just waiting by the highway to see if somebody happens to speed right in front of them. That doesn't necessarily mean investigating every team, but based on the tone of every article on the subject, the league wouldn't have to dig too far to uncover a lot more on this subject. It is absolutely unfair if they refuse to do that while at the same time claiming that Boston and Houston's actions were so egregious that heads need to roll.
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 15, 2020 12:09:40 GMT -5
Here's why I disagree - you've been making the point that the Astros and Sox are only getting punished because of what's gotten into the news, to save face for PR purposes. Well, consider if, say, Ryan Weber goes to MLB and says "you know, the Rays have this complicted scheme too, let me tell you how" and MLB doesn't investigate it... you don't think that will get out? That's got much more potential for a big mess, PR-wise, than an internal investigation that leads to them needing to punish twelve teams or something. This idea that MLB is being lax on enforecement until things get out I can see. This idea that they'll continue to be lax and others who do the same thing will get less of a penalty just to avoid mess? I don't know where that's coming from or why the feeling is so widespread, but I don't get that feeling at all.
Anyway, I do get the frustration. The way they got caught feels (at the very least) unlucky. But it's kinda like a gameday thread where Aaron Boone does something dumb like leaves in CC Sabathia to face Mookie Betts a fourth time and gets away with it and then Eduardo Nunez hits into a double play and then Luke Voit hits a 291-foot homer and everyone freaks about Yankee Stadium and them getting all the breaks. On one level, we all need a space to vent our frustration. But also, we gotta be here saying "let's think about this for a minute and chill out, this happened because they're playing Eduardo Nunez, they have no one to blame but themselves." We're frustrated, but we have to realize that it's important to say "Alex Cora, why are playing Eduardo Nunez still and/or cheating in an manner you were told not to? We deserve the punishment that follows this foolish choice."
I also agree with jimed's earlier point that what the Red Sox did feels less intrusive than the Astros signaling scheme. I think I might be less upset here because I really don't see them getting the same penalty. If the Red Sox get dinged four top picks? Yeah, that's overly harsh, considering. If they lose, like, a second round pick? I dunno, I'm reserving judgment until we actually see the investigation results and the penalties that come with it. The tough part comes in Cora's involvement in the Astros scheme, which is a punishment of him but acts, in effect, as a punishment of the Red Sox.
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Post by incandenza on Jan 15, 2020 12:11:08 GMT -5
Retracted.
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Post by voiceofreason on Jan 15, 2020 12:24:24 GMT -5
With players moving from team to team and all that I have read on this subject I have 2 takes. One, the chances that most of the teams were doing what the Sox were doing are pretty good and the players all know about it. That is as long as the league doesn't find more in their investigation. The Astros took it to another level and that is why guys spoke out. Two, if that is the case then the Sox will get punished but not as bad as the Stros. But the league must be worried about more and more coming out, as in more people speaking up and pointing a finger. That won't be a good look for the league and they might want to get ahead of it somehow.
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Post by patford on Jan 15, 2020 12:47:45 GMT -5
Cora talking about sign stealing here. But investigation into NYYs?....Nah. Damn, that clip is loaded. The wink. The mention of devices. Will the Yankees be investigated ? No because MLB wants them in the World Series. Is it a "bad look" to say that ? Absolutely because it being a "bad look" is part of the narrative. As a fan I can say it. The Sox and other "serious" people can't because they will look bad.
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Post by kevfc89 on Jan 15, 2020 13:45:44 GMT -5
press conference ongoing now. front office obviously can't say much given ongoing investigations, but they did keep reiterating for everyone to withhold judgement on what the red sox did until the report comes out.
they also said they took significant steps after the 2017 incident to ensure they wouldn't have this problem again, that they and Cora came to the decision that he couldn't continue to manage the Sox based only on the Astros investigation findings, and said at this point they don't believe the 2018 WS championship was tainted. a lot of spin and not much detail so who knows, but perhaps they are hinting that what they are accused and guilty of has been overblown at this point. hopefully that is the case and the sox can at least avoid a heavy draft pick punishment.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 15, 2020 14:02:03 GMT -5
There is no justice unless the law is applied equally to all. First off, this isn't the law. This is baseball. Secondly, just because someone somewhere got away with the thing you didn't get away with, doesn't mean you don't have face consequences for it. That's how a child thinks.
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Post by kevfc89 on Jan 15, 2020 14:25:23 GMT -5
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 15, 2020 15:28:23 GMT -5
There is no justice unless the law is applied equally to all. First off, this isn't the law. This is baseball. Secondly, just because someone somewhere got away with the thing you didn't get away with, doesn't mean you don't have face consequences for it. That's how a child thinks. I fully realize MLB rules aren't laws. I should have said "In baseball, there is no fairness unless the rules are applied to all teams equally." but assumed that everyone got the very easy to understand comment. Was it really necessary to argue that point? Your second point, um do you want to make that argument to black people who are complaining that white people don't get prosecuted for the same exact crimes? Are they acting like children? Are poor people acting like children when they get put in jail for 6 months awaiting trial and can't afford bail, unlike people who can afford it? Selective prosecution of laws makes laws meaningless. Selective enforcement of rules makes rules meaningless. It leads to favoritism and advantages to certain people or groups.
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mobaz
Veteran
Posts: 2,780
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Post by mobaz on Jan 16, 2020 11:33:48 GMT -5
Mets employee Jessica Mendoza calls out Mike Fiers for whistleblowing.
Interesting counter to "Everybody was doing it." Fiers is well-traveled and only called out the Astros as Above and Beyond and "not the right way" in what kicked off this round of investigations. He might have a beef with the Astros specifically, but it didn't come across that way.
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 16, 2020 11:40:14 GMT -5
Mets employee Jessica Mendoza calls out Mike Fiers for whistleblowing. Interesting counter to "Everybody was doing it." Fiers is well-traveled and only called out the Astros as Above and Beyond and "not the right way" in what kicked off this round of investigations. He might have a beef with the Astros specifically, but it didn't come across that way. What a moron to open her mouth especially with Beltran's status remaining unclear and without Mets leadership making a statement first. Also, her point is ridiculously stupid. Typical Mets.
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,824
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Post by nomar on Jan 16, 2020 11:46:32 GMT -5
Mets employee Jessica Mendoza calls out Mike Fiers for whistleblowing. Interesting counter to "Everybody was doing it." Fiers is well-traveled and only called out the Astros as Above and Beyond and "not the right way" in what kicked off this round of investigations. He might have a beef with the Astros specifically, but it didn't come across that way. I mean I can see both sides here, but Fiers clearly had an axe to grind. Doesn’t make the allegations untrue.
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 16, 2020 14:32:03 GMT -5
Mets employee Jessica Mendoza calls out Mike Fiers for whistleblowing. Interesting counter to "Everybody was doing it." Fiers is well-traveled and only called out the Astros as Above and Beyond and "not the right way" in what kicked off this round of investigations. He might have a beef with the Astros specifically, but it didn't come across that way. I mean I can see both sides here, but Fiers clearly had an axe to grind. Doesn’t make the allegations untrue. The crap needed to stop and that's the only way it was ever going to stop. So I don't see her side at all. Fiers was sticking up for his fellow pitchers who were losing considerable money.
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 16, 2020 14:35:46 GMT -5
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 16, 2020 14:36:54 GMT -5
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 16, 2020 14:39:13 GMT -5
Altuve screamed "Don't rip off my jersey!" after the ALCS walkoff HR.
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,824
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Post by nomar on Jan 16, 2020 14:59:32 GMT -5
I mean I can see both sides here, but Fiers clearly had an axe to grind. Doesn’t make the allegations untrue. The crap needed to stop and that's the only way it was ever going to stop. So I don't see her side at all. Fiers was sticking up for his fellow pitchers who were losing considerable money. I meant the “everyone’s doing it” side, not Mendoza’s blame the whistleblower crap. That I don’t agree with.
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Post by voiceofreason on Jan 16, 2020 16:52:58 GMT -5
Altuve screamed "Don't rip off my jersey!" after the ALCS walkoff HR. And the hits just keep coming!! Is their any other excuse for him yelling that and covering up like that. This is a whole other level that could lead to even more suspensions.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Jan 16, 2020 17:00:45 GMT -5
...as you suggested they would. The idea that all of this would remain hidden away with everyone involved pledging not to talk is far removed from the world we actually love in.
Add: ... and live in!
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Post by Don Caballero on Jan 16, 2020 17:06:34 GMT -5
I sure do hope this didn't happen here.
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Post by voiceofreason on Jan 16, 2020 17:11:16 GMT -5
I sure do hope this didn't happen here. Looks pretty convincing to me, could their be another answer? And the guy says he heard it from other people also.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jan 16, 2020 17:27:30 GMT -5
Ive been very busy at work and unable to follow this in detail but what are people’s guesses on our penalty? I just get the feeling we’re going to get clobbered as well.
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Post by vermontsox1 on Jan 16, 2020 17:39:15 GMT -5
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 16, 2020 17:53:01 GMT -5
Ive been very busy at work and unable to follow this in detail but what are people’s guesses on our penalty? I just get the feeling we’re going to get clobbered as well. When baseball folds and liquidates its assets after today, the Red Sox are getting a smaller cut.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Jan 16, 2020 17:54:29 GMT -5
Fascinating....Truly Fascinating. I have to admit the story gets juicier by the day and i love reading about it. It could really balloon if other teams are caught up in it. I dont see how it goes away and i think that is why MLB and the teams are "mutually parting ways with their guilty managers". I am not going to feign discontent when it is just the game of baseball. It is important to play by the rules and not cheat, but it is almost impossible to do when people your are competing against are the ones cheating.
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