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Chaim Bloom/Ryan Weber - Poll
nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,787
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Post by nomar on Jan 15, 2020 21:27:36 GMT -5
You are an incredible human being. Only you could pick apart a guy after making a minor transaction and was very publicly informed that he's not allowed to spend any money, that he needs to shed payroll, who just had his manager fired with only a few weeks left in the off-season and all before the start of his first season with the Red Sox. For your next trick, can you pick apart his rounds 30-40 draft picks? Umm I was talking about the poster he was talking to, not about Bloom. I haven’t even criticized Bloom once...
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Jan 15, 2020 21:27:43 GMT -5
I remember when I would have bet my mother-in-law that Bowden would have a better career than Buchholz. If you said that when Bowden was about 28, it would have been just as silly as Selsky. OK, I'll up the ante. I'll bet you my mother-in-law that Bowden has a better career than Clayton Kershaw. I also thought Brock Holt was fried 4 years ago and wanted him non-tendered.
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 15, 2020 21:32:48 GMT -5
If you said that when Bowden was about 28, it would have been just as silly as Selsky. OK, I'll up the ante. I'll bet you my mother-in-law that Bowden has a better career than Clayton Kershaw. I also thought Brock Holt was fried 4 years ago and wanted him non-tendered. Sorry man, nothing is as silly as wanting Selsky to replace JBJ, when JBJ was a 4-5 win player and Selsky was replacement level. Also, I don't want your mother in law.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Jan 15, 2020 21:39:34 GMT -5
OK, I'll up the ante. I'll bet you my mother-in-law that Bowden has a better career than Clayton Kershaw. I also thought Brock Holt was fried 4 years ago and wanted him non-tendered. Sorry man, nothing is as silly as wanting Selsky to replace JBJ, when JBJ was a 4-5 win player and Selsky was replacement level. Also, I don't want your mother in law. We had multiple posters vehemently defending Pablo.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jan 15, 2020 21:42:04 GMT -5
You are an incredible human being. Only you could pick apart a guy after making a minor transaction and was very publicly informed that he's not allowed to spend any money, that he needs to shed payroll, who just had his manager fired with only a few weeks left in the off-season and all before the start of his first season with the Red Sox. For your next trick, can you pick apart his rounds 30-40 draft picks? Umm I was talking about the poster he was talking to, not about Bloom. I haven’t even criticized Bloom once... Sorry Nomar, I quoted the wrong message. I meant the OP.
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Jan 15, 2020 22:52:18 GMT -5
Remember when dmaineah wanted Steve Selsky to be the starting CF? Where's the option for Weber being the starting CF? I remember when I would have bet my mother-in-law that Bowden would have a better career than Buchholz. What would the terms of the bet with your mother-in-law have been?
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Post by caseytins on Jan 15, 2020 23:00:34 GMT -5
Is this a joke? Ryan Weber is not on the opening day roster.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 16, 2020 2:19:54 GMT -5
Huge difference he has $208 million and not under $80 million to spend. He has a lot more options in Boston and this is why he was hired. Yet so far nothing. He has almost no options other than trying to remove payroll and not get worse right now. And that's pretty much impossible because they don't have any dead contracts. I mean try to think of anything that accomplishes this. How do you go from $237 million to $208 million without getting worse? And without trading prospects. Is that not what the Rays do every year? A million different ways to build teams. Everyone wanted DD gone because he was a need the best at all costs guy. We wanted a more creative GM and got a guy who came from one of the most creative teams in Baseball. Trading Pham to get Renfroe, then using some of the extra money to get a DH. He has a bunch of options and yes they all on paper will look like a downgrade. That doesn't mean it will be, not in Baseball. Yet you need to get creative and take chances. He hasn't done anything, in that he's just added payroll. He hasn't even lowered it. Talk of trading Price and Bradley for months now. Spring Training is getting crazy close. I'm not saying I want to trade all these guys but you could trade Martinez, Bogaerts, Betts, Price, ERod, Bradley, heck you could look at moving Sale. The D-Backs moved Goldschmidt and got better, while dumping a ton of money. Sell high, buy low. Just like the Rays do most years.
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Post by nesportfan on Jan 16, 2020 6:44:07 GMT -5
I voted yes because I do think that it is his intention to have Weber be in the bullpen along with Brice, Hembree & Workman who are also out of options. At the very least I think Weber will be given the opportunity to make the team in the spring before a decision is made. Same with Brice. I think Hembree & Workman are both locks to make the team.
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 16, 2020 7:10:59 GMT -5
He has almost no options other than trying to remove payroll and not get worse right now. And that's pretty much impossible because they don't have any dead contracts. I mean try to think of anything that accomplishes this. How do you go from $237 million to $208 million without getting worse? And without trading prospects. Is that not what the Rays do every year? A million different ways to build teams. Everyone wanted DD gone because he was a need the best at all costs guy. We wanted a more creative GM and got a guy who came from one of the most creative teams in Baseball. Trading Pham to get Renfroe, then using some of the extra money to get a DH. He has a bunch of options and yes they all on paper will look like a downgrade. That doesn't mean it will be, not in Baseball. Yet you need to get creative and take chances. He hasn't done anything, in that he's just added payroll. He hasn't even lowered it. Talk of trading Price and Bradley for months now. Spring Training is getting crazy close. I'm not saying I want to trade all these guys but you could trade Martinez, Bogaerts, Betts, Price, ERod, Bradley, heck you could look at moving Sale. The D-Backs moved Goldschmidt and got better, while dumping a ton of money. Sell high, buy low. Just like the Rays do most years. No, the Rays do not remove $30 million from their payroll every year.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 16, 2020 7:53:56 GMT -5
Is that not what the Rays do every year? A million different ways to build teams. Everyone wanted DD gone because he was a need the best at all costs guy. We wanted a more creative GM and got a guy who came from one of the most creative teams in Baseball. Trading Pham to get Renfroe, then using some of the extra money to get a DH. He has a bunch of options and yes they all on paper will look like a downgrade. That doesn't mean it will be, not in Baseball. Yet you need to get creative and take chances. He hasn't done anything, in that he's just added payroll. He hasn't even lowered it. Talk of trading Price and Bradley for months now. Spring Training is getting crazy close. I'm not saying I want to trade all these guys but you could trade Martinez, Bogaerts, Betts, Price, ERod, Bradley, heck you could look at moving Sale. The D-Backs moved Goldschmidt and got better, while dumping a ton of money. Sell high, buy low. Just like the Rays do most years. No, the Rays do not remove $30 million from their payroll every year. Percentage wise they certain do, of course it isn't actually 30 million they don't have many big salary guys and a payroll under 80 million. We do, you can easily clear it by just trading one or two players.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 16, 2020 9:46:20 GMT -5
No, the Rays do not remove $30 million from their payroll every year. Are you kidding? That's like, all they do. They don't cut $30m at once because they DFA everyone who's arb number goes one dollar over their projected value.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jan 16, 2020 10:13:32 GMT -5
No, the Rays do not remove $30 million from their payroll every year. Are you kidding? That's like, all they do. They don't cut $30m at once because they DFA everyone who's arb number goes one dollar over their projected value. The Rays are also not very competitive most years and have never won a ring. They also cycle through players so often that they always have a steady stream of minor league players ready to fill positions.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 16, 2020 10:19:32 GMT -5
Are you kidding? That's like, all they do. They don't cut $30m at once because they DFA everyone who's arb number goes one dollar over their projected value. The Rays are also not very competitive most years and have never won a ring. They also cycle through players so often that they always have a steady stream of minor league players ready to fill positions. True. If the Rays ever had a Mookie on their roster, he wouldn't last the 6 plus years until free agency. He'd probably be traded with 2 years to go so they can get the best prospect package possible. They can never really establish a core there for any length of time.
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 16, 2020 11:00:33 GMT -5
Ryan Weber will be good, and I'm keeping the receipts. There will be no "oh I always believed in him, what a great story!"
Signed, The Fringy Strike-Thrower Who Figures It Out Fan Club Leadership
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Post by soxcentral on Jan 16, 2020 11:15:15 GMT -5
Ryan Weber is out of options and he has waived others to keep him so Bloom must have penciled in as part of the Bullpen This really is funny. No one is projecting him to make the roster but you! And you're the one upset about it. Marco DFA'd and cleared, smart move. Travis DFA'd and not as useful as Weber. Poyner DFA'd and not as useful as Weber. Just because he's better than the guys who were DFA'd doesn't mean he'll make the roster with everyone healthy. He's a contingency plan.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 16, 2020 15:23:07 GMT -5
Are you kidding? That's like, all they do. They don't cut $30m at once because they DFA everyone who's arb number goes one dollar over their projected value. The Rays are also not very competitive most years and have never won a ring. They also cycle through players so often that they always have a steady stream of minor league players ready to fill positions. In the 2010s Red Sox have 872 wins, Rays have 860. We have what averaged around 200 million in salary, they are under 80 million. I don't want to be the Rays, but they do a lot of very smart things that I thought our new GM was going to do.
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 16, 2020 15:27:09 GMT -5
The Rays are also not very competitive most years and have never won a ring. They also cycle through players so often that they always have a steady stream of minor league players ready to fill positions. In the 2010s Red Sox have 872 wins, Rays have 860. We have what averaged around 200 million in salary, they are under 80 million. I don't want to be the Rays, but they do a lot of very smart things that I thought our new GM was going to do. It's a lot easier to move inexpensive players like Chris Archer than $30 million players. It's also a lot easier to continue a plan that has been in place for decades than it is to completely change a plan immediately. It's really also a lot easier to trade away everyone when you don't have a fanbase.
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 16, 2020 15:38:49 GMT -5
The Rays are also not very competitive most years and have never won a ring. They also cycle through players so often that they always have a steady stream of minor league players ready to fill positions. In the 2010s Red Sox have 872 wins, Rays have 860. We have what averaged around 200 million in salary, they are under 80 million. I don't want to be the Rays, but they do a lot of very smart things that I thought our new GM was going to do. Eh, that's pretty loaded because the Rays had a 277 to 248 lead through 2012. Since 2013 the Red Sox have averaged 89.1 wins per season with a median season of 93-69, while the Rays have averaged 83.2 with a median season of 80-82. And that includes two seasons where the Red Sox finished in last place.
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Post by incandenza on Jan 16, 2020 16:29:00 GMT -5
This discussion about the Rays and Red Sox makes me think of r-selection and k-selection in biology. Basically, there are two kind of adaptive strategies that animal genes might employ: in r-selection, animals have a bunch of offspring but short gestation, a short developmental period, and little parental investment, like mice or frogs. In k-selection, animals have few offspring, long gestation and devlopmental periods, and lots of parental investment, like elephants or humans. So there are two equilibria, but each of them entails a number of traits that all go together. Maybe the Rays and Red Sox (or small- and big-budget teams generally) are like this. If you are the Rays, you don't have the money to sign free agents, or even keep your own guys deep into arbitration sometimes, which means you have a high rate of churn ("many offspring, short development period"). Hence all the little dime-for-two-nickels deals they're always doing. If you're the Red Sox, you sign the big free agents and keep guys like Betts as long as you're getting value out of them ("few offspring, lots of parental investment"); but if you're doing that then you largely can't make the little marginal deals. E.g., you couldn't get value in return for trading David Price if you tried. All of which is to say, Bloom has gone from the former situation to the latter, and just because he made the moves that were appropriate for the former doesn't mean we should expect him to do that now. Like, we might hope for "as smart as the Rays have been, PLUS signing big-dollar free agents," but maybe it doesn't work like that.
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Post by iakovos11 on Jan 16, 2020 21:11:15 GMT -5
This discussion about the Rays and Red Sox makes me think of r-selection and k-selection in biology. Basically, there are two kind of adaptive strategies that animal genes might employ: in r-selection, animals have a bunch of offspring but short gestation, a short developmental period, and little parental investment, like mice or frogs. In k-selection, animals have few offspring, long gestation and devlopmental periods, and lots of parental investment, like elephants or humans. So there are two equilibria, but each of them entails a number of traits that all go together. Maybe the Rays and Red Sox (or small- and big-budget teams generally) are like this. If you are the Rays, you don't have the money to sign free agents, or even keep your own guys deep into arbitration sometimes, which means you have a high rate of churn ("many offspring, short development period"). Hence all the little dime-for-two-nickels deals they're always doing. If you're the Red Sox, you sign the big free agents and keep guys like Betts as long as you're getting value out of them ("few offspring, lots of parental investment"); but if you're doing that then you largely can't make the little marginal deals. E.g., you couldn't get value in return for trading David Price if you tried. All of which is to say, Bloom has gone from the former situation to the latter, and just because he made the moves that were appropriate for the former doesn't mean we should expect him to do that now. Like, we might hope for "as smart as the Rays have been, PLUS signing big-dollar free agents," but maybe it doesn't work like that. This is just a top notch post. Great analogy. Great thoughts.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 17, 2020 1:44:11 GMT -5
In the 2010s Red Sox have 872 wins, Rays have 860. We have what averaged around 200 million in salary, they are under 80 million. I don't want to be the Rays, but they do a lot of very smart things that I thought our new GM was going to do. Eh, that's pretty loaded because the Rays had a 277 to 248 lead through 2012. Since 2013 the Red Sox have averaged 89.1 wins per season with a median season of 93-69, while the Rays have averaged 83.2 with a median season of 80-82. And that includes two seasons where the Red Sox finished in last place. I just used the time period that our owner was using a while back. I have to say you're cherry picking numbers. Yes throw out the seasons were Tampa won 90 plus games four straight years and it makes us look better. They have six 90 win seasons, we have five. Which is amazing given a payroll about 1/3 of what ours is. Not trying to say they are better, but I thought Bloom was brought in to bring some of that "creative" style to the Red Sox.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 17, 2020 1:51:46 GMT -5
This discussion about the Rays and Red Sox makes me think of r-selection and k-selection in biology. Basically, there are two kind of adaptive strategies that animal genes might employ: in r-selection, animals have a bunch of offspring but short gestation, a short developmental period, and little parental investment, like mice or frogs. In k-selection, animals have few offspring, long gestation and devlopmental periods, and lots of parental investment, like elephants or humans. So there are two equilibria, but each of them entails a number of traits that all go together. Maybe the Rays and Red Sox (or small- and big-budget teams generally) are like this. If you are the Rays, you don't have the money to sign free agents, or even keep your own guys deep into arbitration sometimes, which means you have a high rate of churn ("many offspring, short development period"). Hence all the little dime-for-two-nickels deals they're always doing. If you're the Red Sox, you sign the big free agents and keep guys like Betts as long as you're getting value out of them ("few offspring, lots of parental investment"); but if you're doing that then you largely can't make the little marginal deals. E.g., you couldn't get value in return for trading David Price if you tried. All of which is to say, Bloom has gone from the former situation to the latter, and just because he made the moves that were appropriate for the former doesn't mean we should expect him to do that now. Like, we might hope for "as smart as the Rays have been, PLUS signing big-dollar free agents," but maybe it doesn't work like that. The Dodgers did just that with a guy from Tampa. Cutting what a 100 million in payroll? Trading one season of Puig and getting two guys that are top 100 guys now. Yet people act like we can't get anything for Betts. They fired DD because they wanted something different, not just the same old thing.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 17, 2020 7:32:40 GMT -5
This discussion about the Rays and Red Sox makes me think of r-selection and k-selection in biology. Basically, there are two kind of adaptive strategies that animal genes might employ: in r-selection, animals have a bunch of offspring but short gestation, a short developmental period, and little parental investment, like mice or frogs. In k-selection, animals have few offspring, long gestation and devlopmental periods, and lots of parental investment, like elephants or humans. So there are two equilibria, but each of them entails a number of traits that all go together. Maybe the Rays and Red Sox (or small- and big-budget teams generally) are like this. If you are the Rays, you don't have the money to sign free agents, or even keep your own guys deep into arbitration sometimes, which means you have a high rate of churn ("many offspring, short development period"). Hence all the little dime-for-two-nickels deals they're always doing. If you're the Red Sox, you sign the big free agents and keep guys like Betts as long as you're getting value out of them ("few offspring, lots of parental investment"); but if you're doing that then you largely can't make the little marginal deals. E.g., you couldn't get value in return for trading David Price if you tried. All of which is to say, Bloom has gone from the former situation to the latter, and just because he made the moves that were appropriate for the former doesn't mean we should expect him to do that now. Like, we might hope for "as smart as the Rays have been, PLUS signing big-dollar free agents," but maybe it doesn't work like that. The Dodgers did just that with a guy from Tampa. Cutting what a 100 million in payroll? Trading one season of Puig and getting two guys that are top 100 guys now. Yet people act like we can't get anything for Betts. They fired DD because they wanted something different, not just the same old thing. I get what you're saying and no, I'm not overwhelmed by them spending money on Perez and especially Peraza. Basically he traded in Porcello for Perez and Leon for Plawecki, and made some small reliever deals (more throw stuff against the wall and see what sticks kind of thing), which are margin moves that shave off a few bucks. If Peraza is for replacing Nunez, then ok, but if it's for him to start...hope not, just like if it's Perez to replace Porcello, ok, although I still think Porcello has more upside than Perez, but if it's to replace Price, yeesh. That said, I don't think he wanted to come in and right away rip out the core of the team. He's been here about five minutes relatively speaking. Maybe he wants to see what he has with his own eyes first, thus he's conservative? Or maybe there really hasn't been a deal on the table that's been palatable. Yeah, he can trade Bogaerts or Betts or whoever, but maybe the return is a net loss. I assume that the deals on the table for Price are lacking, not to mention he knows he cannot replace Price in the 2020 rotation and expect to compete? Maybe I'm making excuses for him, but I just think I need a lot more time to evaluate Bloom. I have a feeling when the deals do come, they're going to come fast and furious, whether it's the next few weeks, some time in July, or next offseason, and by then I should be able to get a better handle on just who Bloom is, so for the time being I'm reserving judgment (hey, isn't that what the Red Sox FO are asking us to do? Hah!!) I wouldn't be surprised if Bloom is waiting to see if the Sox seriously compete or not, see how much he can unload in July, still get under $208 million even with the pro-rations (Betts, Price, Martinez, Bradley), get back and talent and reshape the club next December when they got a ton of money to play with in addition to the talent they've already received in July deals.
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Post by dmaineah on Jan 17, 2020 8:16:47 GMT -5
I get what you're saying and no, I'm not overwhelmed by them spending money on Perez and especially Peraza. Basically he traded in Porcello for Perez and Leon for Plawecki, and made some small reliever deals (more throw stuff against the wall and see what sticks kind of thing), which are margin moves that shave off a few bucks. If Peraza is for replacing Nunez, then ok, but if it's for him to start...hope not, just like if it's Perez to replace Porcello, ok, although I still think Porcello has more upside than Perez, but if it's to replace Price, yeesh. That said, I don't think he wanted to come in and right away rip out the core of the team. He's been here about five minutes relatively speaking. Maybe he wants to see what he has with his own eyes first, thus he's conservative? Or maybe there really hasn't been a deal on the table that's been palatable. Yeah, he can trade Bogaerts or Betts or whoever, but maybe the return is a net loss. I assume that the deals on the table for Price are lacking, not to mention he knows he cannot replace Price in the 2020 rotation and expect to compete? Maybe I'm making excuses for him, but I just think I need a lot more time to evaluate Bloom. I have a feeling when the deals do come, they're going to come fast and furious, whether it's the next few weeks, some time in July, or next offseason, and by then I should be able to get a better handle on just who Bloom is, so for the time being I'm reserving judgment (hey, isn't that what the Red Sox FO are asking us to do? Hah!!) I wouldn't be surprised if Bloom is waiting to see if the Sox seriously compete or not, see how much he can unload in July, still get under $208 million even with the pro-rations (Betts, Price, Martinez, Bradley), get back some talent and reshape the club next December when they got a ton of money to play with in addition to the talent they've already received in July deals.Glad to see you are coming around to my way of thinking. They don’t have to be under the cap to start the season, only at the end of the season. And that decision doesn’t have to be made until the trade deadline.
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