SoxProspects News
|
|
|
|
Legal
Forum Ground Rules
The views expressed by the members of this Forum do not necessarily reflect the views of SoxProspects, LLC.
© 2003-2024 SoxProspects, LLC
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home | Search | My Profile | Messages | Members | Help |
Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
8/18-8/19 Red Sox vs. Phillies Series Thread
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 20, 2020 1:23:08 GMT -5
A bit exaggerated a situation no ? Of course. But I'm still glad it's M's 5-3 over the LAD and their villainous RF in the sixth. Kudos to you for getting the Rick Waits reference. Yes, hopefully soon the Red Sox scoreboard will flash in big bright lights "Thank you Tijuan Walker".
|
|
|
Post by johnsilver52 on Aug 20, 2020 1:25:08 GMT -5
That one preceded the James Gang by 10 years. James Gang is a portion of a quatrain (I think that's what it is): Autumn calls for a change of year, bringing winter near us Green to brown and the sky's a sign Wintertime is a razor blade that the devil made It's the price we pay for the summertime Spring days come, it's hard to know Where the rain comes from, where the children go It's a nursery rhyme Nursery rhymeAnother Joe Walsh casualty.. The guy was a terrific song writer and had a good voice, but he sure knew how to drive fellow band members away with all the groups he was associated with.
|
|
|
Post by philsbosoxfan on Aug 20, 2020 1:43:01 GMT -5
That one preceded the James Gang by 10 years. James Gang is a portion of a quatrain (I think that's what it is): Autumn calls for a change of year, bringing winter near us Green to brown and the sky's a sign Wintertime is a razor blade that the devil made It's the price we pay for the summertime Spring days come, it's hard to know Where the rain comes from, where the children go It's a nursery rhyme Nursery rhymeAnother Joe Walsh casualty.. The guy was a terrific song writer and had a good voice, but he sure knew how to drive fellow band members away with all the groups he was associated with. Do you remember the hidden track on each side of the 'Yer Album' ? Side A said "Turn me over" side B said "Play me again"
|
|
|
Post by johnsilver52 on Aug 20, 2020 3:00:30 GMT -5
Had forgotten all about that! Days of messages on albums is a lost art, gone away with 33's. Was it Zeppelin who had that evil message when played backwards?
|
|
|
Post by philsbosoxfan on Aug 20, 2020 3:53:45 GMT -5
Had forgotten all about that! Days of messages on albums is a lost art, gone away with 33's. Was it Zeppelin who had that evil message when played backwards? I was thinking it was the Beatles on Revolution #9. "Paul is dead." wiki says before that: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BackmaskingNot a lost art, taken over by the movie industry with hidden Easter Eggs and subtle political messages.
|
|
|
Post by philsbosoxfan on Aug 20, 2020 4:20:46 GMT -5
Red Sox Notes @soxnotes Alex Verdugo has extended his hitting streak to 10 games. He is the first Red Sox outfielder to record at least 1 XBH in 7 consecutive games since Dwight Evans in 1982.
|
|
|
Post by sarasoxer on Aug 20, 2020 7:21:05 GMT -5
So there’s all kinds of fans. I’m firmly in the camp of people who never will root for the Red Sox to lose a game. I understand the logic some of you espouse in wishing for failure and loses in this particular season. That doesn’t work for me at all and tbh seems weird. You do you, but I want the pitchers to throw well and the batters to collect runs. Always. You're a better man than I am Gunga Din. It's time for a retool. It's so clear that we desperately need an influx of pitching et al talent. The horse is flagging in the stretch. I so much want the Sox to win that I don't want to endure a 5-6 year time frame. The sooner they get access to better players thru the draft and organizational sagacity, the better. Maybe Sale will still be good nearer term and E-Rod's condition doesn't derail his career. Maybe a Duran and a Downs bolster a sagging offense at positions needing that. Maybe drafting high for a couple of years is a panacea for a DNA deficient farm.
|
|
|
Post by patford on Aug 20, 2020 11:05:15 GMT -5
So there’s all kinds of fans. I’m firmly in the camp of people who never will root for the Red Sox to lose a game. I understand the logic some of you espouse in wishing for failure and loses in this particular season. That doesn’t work for me at all and tbh seems weird. You do you, but I want the pitchers to throw well and the batters to collect runs. Always. You're a better man than I am Gunga Din. It's time for a retool. It's so clear that we desperately need an influx of pitching et al talent. The horse is flagging in the stretch. I so much want the Sox to win that I don't want to endure a 5-6 year time frame. The sooner they get access to better players thru the draft and organizational sagacity, the better. Maybe Sale will still be good nearer term and E-Rod's condition doesn't derail his career. Maybe a Duran and a Downs bolster a sagging offense at positions needing that. Maybe drafting high for a couple of years is a panacea for a DNA deficient farm. We don't need to root for the Red Sox to lose games. As we have seen their pitching is awful and Bloom keeps running people out there to see what they have. The season is more like Spring Training than a real season. What I'm rooting for is for Manfred to not screw the Sox by doing something with the draft to hurt the Sox. Which I fully expect he will do. I'd love to be wrong.
|
|
|
Post by chrisfromnc on Aug 20, 2020 11:06:58 GMT -5
So there’s all kinds of fans. I’m firmly in the camp of people who never will root for the Red Sox to lose a game. I understand the logic some of you espouse in wishing for failure and loses in this particular season. That doesn’t work for me at all and tbh seems weird. You do you, but I want the pitchers to throw well and the batters to collect runs. Always. You're a better man than I am Gunga Din. It's time for a retool. It's so clear that we desperately need an influx of pitching et al talent. The horse is flagging in the stretch. I so much want the Sox to win that I don't want to endure a 5-6 year time frame. The sooner they get access to better players thru the draft and organizational sagacity, the better. Maybe Sale will still be good nearer term and E-Rod's condition doesn't derail his career. Maybe a Duran and a Downs bolster a sagging offense at positions needing that. Maybe drafting high for a couple of years is a panacea for a DNA deficient farm. Totally understand your point.
Just to slightly restate mine, which is focused on the micro, I can't watch a sox pitcher give up a home run and have any other than a visceral reaction that is negative. The ball goes over the fence and I feel bad inside. I feel bad for the pitcher. I feel bad for the team. I feel bad for me as a fan who loves the team. When a batter strikes out for the third time in a game, or fails to move a runner over, its the same thing. I don't have the ability in me to watch a game and hope they lose because of some long term goal involving success in 2022. My fandom doesn't work that way.
I'm astute enough to realize that drafting early is better than drafting late. But I don't care about that when I am watching a baseball game. Besides, I know drafting is inexact. Otherwise, Trout goes 1/1 every time. Mookie does not get to the 5th round, Trey Ball gets drafted in the 17th round, etc.
When I see posters here, who I know love the team as much as I do, plainly rooting for failure, it is just completely strange to me because of the way I feel that I just described above.
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 20, 2020 11:07:46 GMT -5
So there’s all kinds of fans. I’m firmly in the camp of people who never will root for the Red Sox to lose a game. I understand the logic some of you espouse in wishing for failure and loses in this particular season. That doesn’t work for me at all and tbh seems weird. You do you, but I want the pitchers to throw well and the batters to collect runs. Always. I'm sure you remember the final day of the 2011 season. I can guarantee you that a lot if not a majority of diehard Yankees fans were rooting for their team to lose to TB that day - just so they could screw the Red Sox over. It happens. I'll root for the Red Sox to lose if I think it's benefitical to help them win. Not all games are equal. Some games are meaningless while others mean so much. I'm always fine with the Sox losing a few here and there after they clinch a playoff spot - as long as they don't go completely dead - like 1988, 2016, and 2017 come to mind. I say that because as a believer in the law of averages I'd be nervous if they won their last 10 games in a row - figuring they'd be due to lose and it will happen in the playoffs which I wouldn't want so I root for them to be .500ish after clinching so that there's no indicator either way. And I know what I just said makes NO logical sense whatsoever, but that's my superstition. And this year - if it helps them immensely in draft position - I'll root for them to lose. Honestly, whether I root for them or not - it really doesn't affect what's happening on the field. On the field the 2020 Red Sox suck. I'd rather see them go 15-45 and pick 1st in the draft (if Manfred lets them). What's the point of this lousy sinking team going 26-34 and picking toward the middle? I think it benefits the 2024 Sox immensely to pick higher in the draft leading to hopefully more future wins, which means more important games - ones where I can intently root for the Red Sox. For me, the wins matter more when they're good and the losses hurt more when they're good. When they win now, it's like who cares? They might as well lose. And if they lose, there's little pain beyond the "Man, how did the greatest team in Red Sox history go so bad so fast?!" Makes it easier to cut the chord though and move onto future Red Sox teams - without the "wish we could have kept Porcello - he was one of 25" sentiments.
|
|
|
Post by manfred on Aug 20, 2020 11:16:07 GMT -5
So there’s all kinds of fans. I’m firmly in the camp of people who never will root for the Red Sox to lose a game. I understand the logic some of you espouse in wishing for failure and loses in this particular season. That doesn’t work for me at all and tbh seems weird. You do you, but I want the pitchers to throw well and the batters to collect runs. Always. I'm sure you remember the final day of the 2011 season. I can guarantee you that a lot if not a majority of diehard Yankees fans were rooting for their team to lose to TB that day - just so they could screw the Red Sox over. It happens. I'll root for the Red Sox to lose if I think it's benefitical to help them win. Not all games are equal. Some games are meaningless while others mean so much. I'm always fine with the Sox losing a few here and there after they clinch a playoff spot - as long as they don't go completely dead - like 1988, 2016, and 2017 come to mind. I say that because as a believer in the law of averages I'd be nervous if they won their last 10 games in a row - figuring they'd be due to lose and it will happen in the playoffs which I wouldn't want so I root for them to be .500ish after clinching so that there's no indicator either way. And I know what I just said makes NO logical sense whatsoever, but that's my superstition. And this year - if it helps them immensely in draft position - I'll root for them to lose. Honestly, whether I root for them or not - it really doesn't affect what's happening on the field. On the field the 2020 Red Sox suck. I'd rather see them go 15-45 and pick 1st in the draft (if Manfred lets them). What's the point of this lousy sinking team going 26-34 and picking toward the middle? I think it benefits the 2024 Sox immensely to pick higher in the draft leading to hopefully more future wins, which means more important games - ones where I can intently root for the Red Sox. For me, the wins matter more when they're good and the losses hurt more when they're good. When they win now, it's like who cares? They might as well lose. And if they lose, there's little pain beyond the "Man, how did the greatest team in Red Sox history go so bad so fast?!" Makes it easier to cut the chord though and move onto future Red Sox teams - without the "wish we could have kept Porcello - he was one of 25" sentiments. I agree with this. The worst thing of all is protracted mediocrity. I’d rather be the worst for a year or two than win 85 games 5 years in a row. This year will yield better results than last year — provided the draft order is as it should be. But I’ll go a step further. I have a bit of a sense of schadenfreude watching a team that has done bad/dumb things pay the price. If we aren’t punished for our transgressions, how can we learn? Sucking is a form of penance.
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 20, 2020 11:27:43 GMT -5
I'm sure you remember the final day of the 2011 season. I can guarantee you that a lot if not a majority of diehard Yankees fans were rooting for their team to lose to TB that day - just so they could screw the Red Sox over. It happens. I'll root for the Red Sox to lose if I think it's benefitical to help them win. Not all games are equal. Some games are meaningless while others mean so much. I'm always fine with the Sox losing a few here and there after they clinch a playoff spot - as long as they don't go completely dead - like 1988, 2016, and 2017 come to mind. I say that because as a believer in the law of averages I'd be nervous if they won their last 10 games in a row - figuring they'd be due to lose and it will happen in the playoffs which I wouldn't want so I root for them to be .500ish after clinching so that there's no indicator either way. And I know what I just said makes NO logical sense whatsoever, but that's my superstition. And this year - if it helps them immensely in draft position - I'll root for them to lose. Honestly, whether I root for them or not - it really doesn't affect what's happening on the field. On the field the 2020 Red Sox suck. I'd rather see them go 15-45 and pick 1st in the draft (if Manfred lets them). What's the point of this lousy sinking team going 26-34 and picking toward the middle? I think it benefits the 2024 Sox immensely to pick higher in the draft leading to hopefully more future wins, which means more important games - ones where I can intently root for the Red Sox. For me, the wins matter more when they're good and the losses hurt more when they're good. When they win now, it's like who cares? They might as well lose. And if they lose, there's little pain beyond the "Man, how did the greatest team in Red Sox history go so bad so fast?!" Makes it easier to cut the chord though and move onto future Red Sox teams - without the "wish we could have kept Porcello - he was one of 25" sentiments. I agree with this. The worst thing of all is protracted mediocrity. I’d rather be the worst for a year or two than win 85 games 5 years in a row. This year will yield better results than last year — provided the draft order is as it should be. But I’ll go a step further. I have a bit of a sense of schadenfreude watching a team that has done bad/dumb things pay the price. If we aren’t punished for our transgressions, how can we learn? Sucking is a form of penance. This totally. They made foolish decisions and they deserve the product that's on the field. I still don't know how the communication after the 2018 World Series between Henry, Werner, and Dombrowski resulted in them signing off on Eovaldi and Sale and wanting to extend X but not having a plan that would get them under the luxury tax limit and allow them to make a Trout like offer to Betts (which I don't think they ever intended to do - they wanted a hometown discount). I mean Henry and Werner sign off on those expenditures, don't they? I'll be honest - I was happy about Sale re-signing and Eovald remaining (and X of course), but that's the fanboy in me. I rationalized that they MUST have a plan to make this all work. I had blind faith in the FO. Why not? They won 119 games and had 4 championships in 15 seasons. I don't hold Bloom responsible for any of this. I didn't like his swapping out of Holt (again my fanboyism who likes his .360 OBP) for Peraza but that's hardly a killer, but here we are - right where the Red Sox deserve to be unfortunately.
|
|
|
Post by manfred on Aug 20, 2020 11:53:33 GMT -5
I agree with this. The worst thing of all is protracted mediocrity. I’d rather be the worst for a year or two than win 85 games 5 years in a row. This year will yield better results than last year — provided the draft order is as it should be. But I’ll go a step further. I have a bit of a sense of schadenfreude watching a team that has done bad/dumb things pay the price. If we aren’t punished for our transgressions, how can we learn? Sucking is a form of penance. This totally. They made foolish decisions and they deserve the product that's on the field. I still don't know how the communication after the 2018 World Series between Henry, Werner, and Dombrowski resulted in them signing off on Eovaldi and Sale and wanting to extend X but not having a plan that would get them under the luxury tax limit and allow them to make a Trout like offer to Betts (which I don't think they ever intended to do - they wanted a hometown discount). I mean Henry and Werner sign off on those expenditures, don't they? I'll be honest - I was happy about Sale re-signing and Eovald remaining (and X of course), but that's the fanboy in me. I rationalized that they MUST have a plan to make this all work. I had blind faith in the FO. Why not? They won 119 games and had 4 championships in 15 seasons. I don't hold Bloom responsible for any of this. I didn't like his swapping out of Holt (again my fanboyism who likes his .360 OBP) for Peraza but that's hardly a killer, but here we are - right where the Red Sox deserve to be unfortunately. Yeah, I certainly don’t mean to suggest I wasn’t in on some moves. I thought — and think — the Sale signing was good. There is a difference between wrong and didn’t-work-out. After the massive investment you made, you couldn’t let him walk. If he went off and dominated elsewhere AND Moncada and Kopech were studs, it’d be awful. Pitchers are a risk, and to date, this one didn’t pan out. Eovaldi... that was tough. He has never been a great risk between sucking and injuries, but his few good years and his electric arm makes it easy to see why you’d spend on him. I can see either way. But you nail it: if you KNOW you are a year from a cash crunch, Eovaldi, for example, was a bad move. We can see with Perez that you can usually get at least a functional guy for cheaper. But going back to Han Ram and Panda and then Price and then Eovaldi, the general plan (across GMs) seems to be reactive. In a moment, spend huge on an immediate need, often with a square peg — then figure it out later. But the Mookie trade is a redux of Lester: cheap out on Lester, lose him, then overspend on two ill-suited free agents. In this case, you have a reverse order, but that is irrelevant, given that a spreadsheet could show you what was coming. There ARE common players in these decisions, but they aren’t the GMs.
|
|
|
Post by Chris Hatfield on Aug 20, 2020 12:36:18 GMT -5
I agree with this. The worst thing of all is protracted mediocrity. I’d rather be the worst for a year or two than win 85 games 5 years in a row. This year will yield better results than last year — provided the draft order is as it should be. But I’ll go a step further. I have a bit of a sense of schadenfreude watching a team that has done bad/dumb things pay the price. If we aren’t punished for our transgressions, how can we learn? Sucking is a form of penance. This totally. They made foolish decisions and they deserve the product that's on the field. I still don't know how the communication after the 2018 World Series between Henry, Werner, and Dombrowski resulted in them signing off on Eovaldi and Sale and wanting to extend X but not having a plan that would get them under the luxury tax limit and allow them to make a Trout like offer to Betts (which I don't think they ever intended to do - they wanted a hometown discount). I mean Henry and Werner sign off on those expenditures, don't they? I'll be honest - I was happy about Sale re-signing and Eovald remaining (and X of course), but that's the fanboy in me. I rationalized that they MUST have a plan to make this all work. I had blind faith in the FO. Why not? They won 119 games and had 4 championships in 15 seasons. I don't hold Bloom responsible for any of this. I didn't like his swapping out of Holt (again my fanboyism who likes his .360 OBP) for Peraza but that's hardly a killer, but here we are - right where the Red Sox deserve to be unfortunately. I think you have it right - the poor decisions were made before 2019. I'll take what you said a step further. Retaining Sale and Eovaldi weren't bad decisions in a vacuum. It was the Dave Dombrowski mantra of outbidding himself that was the problem. They could've signed Sale for about $30 million less if they'd waited a year, and bringing Eovaldi back, while fine and, frankly, probably the right thing to do after what he did in the playoffs, hurts given the amount of money they gave him. Has there been reporting on what his other offer were? I had said for years they would need creativity to transition from the '16-18 core to the next one given the number of deals coming up right around 2020. Trying to put the band back together for another run in '19 was defensible, but it was always going to hurt on the other end. Welcome to the hurt.
|
|
|
Post by foreverred9 on Aug 20, 2020 20:41:47 GMT -5
Exactly, the 2019 signings we're the icing on the cake of a series of transactions over many years that mortgaged the future. I'm thankful we got that 2018 season, had they struggled that year and bowed out early in the playoffs again we'd have been significantly more frustrated with ownership.
Just the mindset of trading away the system over the years sacrificed sustainability for instant gratification. They were essential in getting us the world series, but we're sitting here today with Flotsam and Jetsam wearing a Red Sox uniform because the system got strip-mined. There just wasn't any vision of sustainability in Dombromski.
|
|
|
Post by manfred on Aug 20, 2020 20:44:41 GMT -5
Exactly, the 2019 signings we're the icing on the cake of a series of transactions over many years that mortgaged the future. I'm thankful we got that 2018 season, had they struggled that year and bowed out early in the playoffs again we'd have been significantly more frustrated with ownership. Just the mindset of trading away the system over the years sacrificed sustainability for instant gratification. They were essential in getting us the world series, but we're sitting here today with Flotsam and Jetsam wearing a Red Sox uniform because the system got strip-mined. There just wasn't any vision of sustainability in Dombromski. Though in fairness if you got back all those guys today, the Sox would still be pretty bad. It would be awesome to have one or two, meh to have a few more, and blech to gave a bunch. But in terms of opportunity cost... it was a high price.
|
|
|
Post by foreverred9 on Aug 20, 2020 20:51:30 GMT -5
Exactly, the 2019 signings we're the icing on the cake of a series of transactions over many years that mortgaged the future. I'm thankful we got that 2018 season, had they struggled that year and bowed out early in the playoffs again we'd have been significantly more frustrated with ownership. Just the mindset of trading away the system over the years sacrificed sustainability for instant gratification. They were essential in getting us the world series, but we're sitting here today with Flotsam and Jetsam wearing a Red Sox uniform because the system got strip-mined. There just wasn't any vision of sustainability in Dombromski. Though in fairness if you got back all those guys today, the Sox would still be pretty bad. It would be awesome to have one or two, meh to have a few more, and blech to gave a bunch. But in terms of opportunity cost... it was a high price. That's true. Yet had they been talented Dombrowski was still going to trade them. So it at least takes the sting off it a bit that our former draftees aren't tearing it up around the league this year. I guess the silver lining is that if we're going to have a rough patch in the draft, at least it was during the Dombrowski years.
|
|
|
Post by sarasoxer on Aug 20, 2020 21:28:30 GMT -5
I'm sure you remember the final day of the 2011 season. I can guarantee you that a lot if not a majority of diehard Yankees fans were rooting for their team to lose to TB that day - just so they could screw the Red Sox over. It happens. I'll root for the Red Sox to lose if I think it's benefitical to help them win. Not all games are equal. Some games are meaningless while others mean so much. I'm always fine with the Sox losing a few here and there after they clinch a playoff spot - as long as they don't go completely dead - like 1988, 2016, and 2017 come to mind. I say that because as a believer in the law of averages I'd be nervous if they won their last 10 games in a row - figuring they'd be due to lose and it will happen in the playoffs which I wouldn't want so I root for them to be .500ish after clinching so that there's no indicator either way. And I know what I just said makes NO logical sense whatsoever, but that's my superstition. And this year - if it helps them immensely in draft position - I'll root for them to lose. Honestly, whether I root for them or not - it really doesn't affect what's happening on the field. On the field the 2020 Red Sox suck. I'd rather see them go 15-45 and pick 1st in the draft (if Manfred lets them). What's the point of this lousy sinking team going 26-34 and picking toward the middle? I think it benefits the 2024 Sox immensely to pick higher in the draft leading to hopefully more future wins, which means more important games - ones where I can intently root for the Red Sox. For me, the wins matter more when they're good and the losses hurt more when they're good. When they win now, it's like who cares? They might as well lose. And if they lose, there's little pain beyond the "Man, how did the greatest team in Red Sox history go so bad so fast?!" Makes it easier to cut the chord though and move onto future Red Sox teams - without the "wish we could have kept Porcello - he was one of 25" sentiments. I agree with this. The worst thing of all is protracted mediocrity. I’d rather be the worst for a year or two than win 85 games 5 years in a row. This year will yield better results than last year — provided the draft order is as it should be. But I’ll go a step further. I have a bit of a sense of schadenfreude watching a team that has done bad/dumb things pay the price. If we aren’t punished for our transgressions, how can we learn? Sucking is a form of penance. Manfred I agree with you in the most part. To be clear overall, I don't support tanking or any activity that detracts from the integrity of the game. I reserve schadenfreude for those manipulating result. Let the Sox be what they are. Management and players are trying their best. I just think that our record accurately reflects what we are. And, to your point, shorter term acute pain is more tolerable than that of many years of chronic 75-85 win mediocrity. For me, I've witnessed 4 world championships when my long Sox history of failure 1957 to 2003 offered only despair. How fortunate I feel. Yeah the draft isn't scientific but I'll take my chances with higher picks. The 'science' is less precise the lower the pick. Those that hope for higher picks are ultimate Sox fans who want badly for the Sox to do well and are willing to experience the immediate pain for doses of the curative vaccine.
|
|
|