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2021 Manager Search (Cora Returns)
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Post by unitspin on Oct 26, 2020 10:50:46 GMT -5
Who said he wasn't a good coach? Seriously? You, 6 posts above (3 hours ago) - "I guess I am in the minority as well bcs cora at no time with the red sox showed to be anything but an average coach." Average means hes a bad coach seems like your taking liberty with the phrase average. If I wanted to say he was a bad coach I would have said that. He's a typical MLB coach nothing special that does not make him bad just replaceable.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 26, 2020 12:00:44 GMT -5
Seriously? You, 6 posts above (3 hours ago) - "I guess I am in the minority as well bcs cora at no time with the red sox showed to be anything but an average coach." Average means hes a bad coach seems like your taking liberty with the phrase average. If I wanted to say he was a bad coach I would have said that. He's a typical MLB coach nothing special that does not make him bad just replaceable. Yes, average doesn't mean bad. It means there are as many better as there are that are worse. I think most of us felt that Cora was well above average. I honestly can't imagine any other manager getting 119 wins out of the 2018 Red Sox. That team didn't exactly have the 1971 Orioles pitching staff. They had Sale who was great but missed 1/3 of the season, a good but not great Price, and Porcello was ok, but didn't exactly have a great ERA, E-Rod was good, and then there was a lot of mix and match after that. The bullpen had Kimbrel, who was not at his best and a very, very questionable group of middle relievers. The lineup had several holes in it. As great as Mookie, JD, and Xander were, JBJ was useless on offense the first half and the maturation that Devers and Vazquez showed from 2019 on up weren't there in 2018. As it was Cora had their #3 hitter released in May. So the Sox were below average offensively at CF, 3b, 2b, and catcher, where NONE of the catchers contributed any offense. Plus 2b was a mess. Holt did well, but was still getting his feet under him, so they wound up giving a ton of ABs to Eduardo Nunez and a washed up Ian Kinsler. The defense at 2b was brutal because Nunez had the majority of time there. 3b was shaky, to be kind. This was a team that really didn't look like it should be great, but every damn day that team showed up, fought like hell, and seemed to find a way to win. An "average" manager (they are managers, not coaches!) could not have accomplished that with that roster. Then I thought, like many others, that the 108 Red Sox team were paper tigers and would be exposed when playing a 100 win Yankee powerhouse and a dominant 103 win Astros team, and the best team over the past 8 years, the Dodgers. Yet with Sale not himself, his September audition middle reliever winner Steven Wright sidelined at the last second, Cora found a way to push his team to victory. I don't think an "average" manager could have accomplished that. In 2018 Cora was anything other than average. In 2019, I guess you can make the argument that he wasn't anything special, but I have to think that between 2018 and 2019 there has to be a mid-ground that argues that he was well above average with room for growth being that he's relatively inexperienced. That said, I don't really feel he's coming back for the reasons Constant Lurker adroitly laid out.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 26, 2020 12:22:20 GMT -5
Seriously? You, 6 posts above (3 hours ago) - "I guess I am in the minority as well bcs cora at no time with the red sox showed to be anything but an average coach." Average means hes a bad coach seems like your taking liberty with the phrase average. If I wanted to say he was a bad coach I would have said that. He's a typical MLB coach nothing special that does not make him bad just replaceable. Fine. Say whatever you want about the cheating thing, but man, "Alex Cora is merely an average and replaceable manager" is one hell of a take.
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Post by tyler3 on Oct 26, 2020 12:56:17 GMT -5
Or is it an average take?
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Post by beasleyrockah on Oct 26, 2020 13:51:57 GMT -5
Seriously? You, 6 posts above (3 hours ago) - "I guess I am in the minority as well bcs cora at no time with the red sox showed to be anything but an average coach." Average means hes a bad coach seems like your taking liberty with the phrase average. If I wanted to say he was a bad coach I would have said that. He's a typical MLB coach nothing special that does not make him bad just replaceable. You asked, "who said he wasn't a good coach"? He quoted your reply, which suggested he was average. "Average" is not "good". If you called player X an average pitcher, it would be clear you aren't calling him good, even if you aren't claiming he's bad either. It's the same thing here, just because you didn't call him bad doesn't magically change your "average" description to "good". As far as "taking liberty with the phrase", he didn't even use the word "bad" in his post, you inserted that word. If that's how you feel fine, but own the take or rephrase it, don't blame him for quoting you.
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Post by unitspin on Oct 26, 2020 13:54:24 GMT -5
Average means hes a bad coach seems like your taking liberty with the phrase average. If I wanted to say he was a bad coach I would have said that. He's a typical MLB coach nothing special that does not make him bad just replaceable. Yes, average doesn't mean bad. It means there are as many better as there are that are worse. I think most of us felt that Cora was well above average. I honestly can't imagine any other manager getting 119 wins out of the 2018 Red Sox. That team didn't exactly have the 1971 Orioles pitching staff. They had Sale who was great but missed 1/3 of the season, a good but not great Price, and Porcello was ok, but didn't exactly have a great ERA, E-Rod was good, and then there was a lot of mix and match after that. The bullpen had Kimbrel, who was not at his best and a very, very questionable group of middle relievers. The lineup had several holes in it. As great as Mookie, JD, and Xander were, JBJ was useless on offense the first half and the maturation that Devers and Vazquez showed from 2019 on up weren't there in 2018. As it was Cora had their #3 hitter released in May. So the Sox were below average offensively at CF, 3b, 2b, and catcher, where NONE of the catchers contributed any offense. Plus 2b was a mess. Holt did well, but was still getting his feet under him, so they wound up giving a ton of ABs to Eduardo Nunez and a washed up Ian Kinsler. The defense at 2b was brutal because Nunez had the majority of time there. 3b was shaky, to be kind. This was a team that really didn't look like it should be great, but every damn day that team showed up, fought like hell, and seemed to find a way to win. An "average" manager (they are managers, not coaches!) could not have accomplished that with that roster. Then I thought, like many others, that the 108 Red Sox team were paper tigers and would be exposed when playing a 100 win Yankee powerhouse and a dominant 103 win Astros team, and the best team over the past 8 years, the Dodgers. Yet with Sale not himself, his September audition middle reliever winner Steven Wright sidelined at the last second, Cora found a way to push his team to victory. I don't think an "average" manager could have accomplished that. In 2018 Cora was anything other than average. In 2019, I guess you can make the argument that he wasn't anything special, but I have to think that between 2018 and 2019 there has to be a mid-ground that argues that he was well above average with room for growth being that he's relatively inexperienced. That said, I don't really feel he's coming back for the reasons Constant Lurker adroitly laid out. I am sorry but I completely disagree about 2018. The red sox lineup that year was the best red sox lineup in red sox history. They led the league in runs and no other team was within 20 runs of them. They were insanely good. As for their pitching as a team they were in the top 5 or 6 teams in baseball as an entire staff. If you do not think another coach could have done what cora did that year, I think your crazy. Cora is a good coach not great there are maybe a handful of guys in the league that over achieve with their teams. In 2018 the red sox did what they should have with the talent they had. So as I stated before he is an average coach, hes good nothing special. He is easily replaceable.
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Post by unitspin on Oct 26, 2020 14:05:51 GMT -5
Average means hes a bad coach seems like your taking liberty with the phrase average. If I wanted to say he was a bad coach I would have said that. He's a typical MLB coach nothing special that does not make him bad just replaceable. Fine. Say whatever you want about the cheating thing, but man, "Alex Cora is merely an average and replaceable manager" is one hell of a take. If you hold cora in such high regard you must think cash is the best coach on the planet.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 26, 2020 14:47:25 GMT -5
Yes, average doesn't mean bad. It means there are as many better as there are that are worse. I think most of us felt that Cora was well above average. I honestly can't imagine any other manager getting 119 wins out of the 2018 Red Sox. That team didn't exactly have the 1971 Orioles pitching staff. They had Sale who was great but missed 1/3 of the season, a good but not great Price, and Porcello was ok, but didn't exactly have a great ERA, E-Rod was good, and then there was a lot of mix and match after that. The bullpen had Kimbrel, who was not at his best and a very, very questionable group of middle relievers. The lineup had several holes in it. As great as Mookie, JD, and Xander were, JBJ was useless on offense the first half and the maturation that Devers and Vazquez showed from 2019 on up weren't there in 2018. As it was Cora had their #3 hitter released in May. So the Sox were below average offensively at CF, 3b, 2b, and catcher, where NONE of the catchers contributed any offense. Plus 2b was a mess. Holt did well, but was still getting his feet under him, so they wound up giving a ton of ABs to Eduardo Nunez and a washed up Ian Kinsler. The defense at 2b was brutal because Nunez had the majority of time there. 3b was shaky, to be kind. This was a team that really didn't look like it should be great, but every damn day that team showed up, fought like hell, and seemed to find a way to win. An "average" manager (they are managers, not coaches!) could not have accomplished that with that roster. Then I thought, like many others, that the 108 Red Sox team were paper tigers and would be exposed when playing a 100 win Yankee powerhouse and a dominant 103 win Astros team, and the best team over the past 8 years, the Dodgers. Yet with Sale not himself, his September audition middle reliever winner Steven Wright sidelined at the last second, Cora found a way to push his team to victory. I don't think an "average" manager could have accomplished that. In 2018 Cora was anything other than average. In 2019, I guess you can make the argument that he wasn't anything special, but I have to think that between 2018 and 2019 there has to be a mid-ground that argues that he was well above average with room for growth being that he's relatively inexperienced. That said, I don't really feel he's coming back for the reasons Constant Lurker adroitly laid out. I am sorry but I completely disagree about 2018. The red sox lineup that year was the best red sox lineup in red sox history. They led the league in runs and no other team was within 20 runs of them. They were insanely good. As for their pitching as a team they were in the top 5 or 6 teams in baseball as an entire staff. If you do not think another coach could have done what cora did that year, I think your crazy. Cora is a good coach not great there are maybe a handful of guys in the league that over achieve with their teams. In 2018 the red sox did what they should have with the talent they had. So as I stated before he is an average coach, hes good nothing special. He is easily replaceable. He was their "Manager", not their "Coach". This isn't basketball, football, soccer or hockey, they are called Managers. And you don't know your history if you think THAT 2018 lineup was the greatest lineup in their history. You must have forgotten 2003's lineup and don't know a thing about the 1950 Red Sox who batted .303 as a team and scored more than a 1000 runs. I can guarantee you those two lineups didn't feature guys hitting .207 or guys with about 400 plate appearances with low an OPS as Eduardo Nunez. And if you think another manager (let's call them managers - this is baseball) would have had those players on the same page the way they were from day 1 then I think you're oblivious to what happened that season. Maybe you have forgotten the effects that a mediocre manager can have on a good team. Obviously you don't recall guys like John McNamara or Don Zimmer or even Grady Little, and we know the tone Bobby Valentine set. Alex Cora was the perfect manager for THAT 2018 team. I don't know that many other guys could have accomplished as much with a team like that.
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Oct 26, 2020 14:47:53 GMT -5
Fine. Say whatever you want about the cheating thing, but man, "Alex Cora is merely an average and replaceable manager" is one hell of a take. If you hold cora in such high regard you must think cash is the best coach on the planet. I mean he might be? He's definitely up there
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jimoh
Veteran
Posts: 3,990
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Post by jimoh on Oct 26, 2020 14:51:19 GMT -5
There's nothing more exciting in the offseason than when someone gets criticized and says "I didn't say that" when he really did, although there is a slight opportunity for quibbling about words for several posts. That's the really exciting analysis I come here for.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 26, 2020 14:52:17 GMT -5
If you hold cora in such high regard you must think cash is the best coach on the planet. I mean he might be? He's definitely up there Tampa was the only team in 2018 to sweep the Red Sox. They killed the Sox in August 2018 in that 3 game series. It's amazing how Cash has that team playing as well as it does. Their lineup is barely functional at times and they mix and match pitchers like crazy. I don't like the "openers" and "bullpen day" stuff, but he has made it work and he innovated it.
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Post by kman22 on Oct 26, 2020 15:22:08 GMT -5
Yes, average doesn't mean bad. It means there are as many better as there are that are worse. I think most of us felt that Cora was well above average. I honestly can't imagine any other manager getting 119 wins out of the 2018 Red Sox. That team didn't exactly have the 1971 Orioles pitching staff. They had Sale who was great but missed 1/3 of the season, a good but not great Price, and Porcello was ok, but didn't exactly have a great ERA, E-Rod was good, and then there was a lot of mix and match after that. The bullpen had Kimbrel, who was not at his best and a very, very questionable group of middle relievers. The lineup had several holes in it. As great as Mookie, JD, and Xander were, JBJ was useless on offense the first half and the maturation that Devers and Vazquez showed from 2019 on up weren't there in 2018. As it was Cora had their #3 hitter released in May. So the Sox were below average offensively at CF, 3b, 2b, and catcher, where NONE of the catchers contributed any offense. Plus 2b was a mess. Holt did well, but was still getting his feet under him, so they wound up giving a ton of ABs to Eduardo Nunez and a washed up Ian Kinsler. The defense at 2b was brutal because Nunez had the majority of time there. 3b was shaky, to be kind. This was a team that really didn't look like it should be great, but every damn day that team showed up, fought like hell, and seemed to find a way to win. An "average" manager (they are managers, not coaches!) could not have accomplished that with that roster. Then I thought, like many others, that the 108 Red Sox team were paper tigers and would be exposed when playing a 100 win Yankee powerhouse and a dominant 103 win Astros team, and the best team over the past 8 years, the Dodgers. Yet with Sale not himself, his September audition middle reliever winner Steven Wright sidelined at the last second, Cora found a way to push his team to victory. I don't think an "average" manager could have accomplished that. In 2018 Cora was anything other than average. In 2019, I guess you can make the argument that he wasn't anything special, but I have to think that between 2018 and 2019 there has to be a mid-ground that argues that he was well above average with room for growth being that he's relatively inexperienced. That said, I don't really feel he's coming back for the reasons Constant Lurker adroitly laid out. I am sorry but I completely disagree about 2018. The red sox lineup that year was the best red sox lineup in red sox history. They led the league in runs and no other team was within 20 runs of them. They were insanely good. As for their pitching as a team they were in the top 5 or 6 teams in baseball as an entire staff. If you do not think another coach could have done what cora did that year, I think your crazy. Cora is a good coach not great there are maybe a handful of guys in the league that over achieve with their teams. In 2018 the red sox did what they should have with the talent they had. So as I stated before he is an average coach, hes good nothing special. He is easily replaceable. If the franchise record for wins and a World Series is average and expected, I think we need an average coach.
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Post by congusgambler33 on Oct 26, 2020 16:22:47 GMT -5
Is he replaceable? maybe. The fact is that we know how Cora manages and know how he stresses swinging in the zone and how he helped Devers immensely with his play and we know how much the players love him a. a big plus there and he was great in the after game interviews. To call him an average coach when he in truth, a manager, is insulting. We could go for someone else, but just because they seem to be a better pick, they still are an unknown to us. How many new managers have failed because they just can't connect with the team? Cora does that in spades.
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Post by unitspin on Oct 26, 2020 16:30:16 GMT -5
Besides cash being #1 and Roberts and cora tied at 8 and 9. The rest of the list is not in any particular order. They are all guys that have proven to do more with less. As I said multiple times before I never said cora was a bad coach just not a guy I see making due with less. He is a spitting image of Dave Roberts guy that got a job with the right team at the right time. If you put cora with Philly or the yanks I think he does more with those teams then there coaches have. But if you put him with oakland or the rays he wouldn't even make the playoffs. Kevin cash Joe Madden Terry Francona Torey lovullu Craig counsell Bob Melvin Rocco baldelli Dave roberts/alex cora
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 26, 2020 16:51:10 GMT -5
Besides cash being #1 and Roberts and cora tied at 8 and 9. The rest of the list is not in any particular order. They are all guys that have proven to do more with less. As I said multiple times before I never said cora was a bad coach just not a guy I see making due with less. He is a spitting image of Dave Roberts guy that got a job with the right team at the right time. If you put cora with Philly or the yanks I think he does more with those teams then there coaches have. But if you put him with oakland or the rays he wouldn't even make the playoffs. Kevin cash Joe Madden Terry Francona Torey lovullu Craig counsell Bob Melvin Rocco baldelli Dave roberts/alex cora Cora had more autonomy as a manager (it's "Manager - do you have a mental block about using that particular word?) than Roberts has had. Dombrowski was hands off in his relationship with Cora. Roberts had more interference in his managing than Cora has had. I remember when he admitted he needed to stay away from Baez or Urias during Game 4 of the World Series. That came from above. Cora didn't have those types of restrictions. Cora in my opinion is a better manager than Roberts is. You still think the 2018 Red Sox were an obvious juggernaut that should have won 108 games plus gone 11-3 in the playoffs. I think they were a very good team that played way above their heads. Subsequent seasons show they really weren't the type of long-term well built juggernaut that the Dodgers have been.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Oct 26, 2020 17:20:45 GMT -5
As far as Alex Cora...in 2018 (2019)... he was the right man at the right time. That team was ready, and I think the change from Farrell to Cora was something the players were very excited about.
It is impossible to gauge someone's managerial ability on one or (2) season. But for him, it was as good as it could be and that counts for something.
I like that Bloom is interviewing a lot of people. It seems this is his management style. I would not be surprised on way or the other about bringing Cora back. I just like that he is being diligent and thorough. I doubt he is doing it just for any MLB driven agenda or otherwise.
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Post by patford on Oct 26, 2020 17:28:47 GMT -5
I mean he might be? He's definitely up there Tampa was the only team in 2018 to sweep the Red Sox. They killed the Sox in August 2018 in that 3 game series. It's amazing how Cash has that team playing as well as it does. Their lineup is barely functional at times and they mix and match pitchers like crazy. I don't like the "openers" and "bullpen day" stuff, but he has made it work and he innovated it. I live in the Tampa area and have read and heard a lot of Rays media reporting. My impression is Cash, like Maddon, is taking orders from the Rays analytical department. They are making the decisions both in games and at all other times. The job of Cash and Maddon is to follow orders and add an "ie" to the end of every players name.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 26, 2020 22:09:07 GMT -5
Tampa was the only team in 2018 to sweep the Red Sox. They killed the Sox in August 2018 in that 3 game series. It's amazing how Cash has that team playing as well as it does. Their lineup is barely functional at times and they mix and match pitchers like crazy. I don't like the "openers" and "bullpen day" stuff, but he has made it work and he innovated it. I live in the Tampa area and have read and heard a lot of Rays media reporting. My impression is Cash, like Maddon, is taking orders from the Rays analytical department. They are making the decisions both in games and at all other times. The job of Cash and Maddon is to follow orders and add an "ie" to the end of every players name. That's always the interesting question. How much interference does the manager get in his game decision making from the FO? The manager receives data from the analytics department, but still has to make decisions, ones that are human at times, like my 3b is having a personal issue - he might need a breather today, or I know this kid is slumping, but I have to stick with him and show him confidence, or my eyes are telling me that this guy is pressing too much and isn't himself right now, or so and so is rotting away on the bench - I need to get him in the game and keep him sharp - that kind of stuff. I always felt Cora made those decisions after looking at everything from every available angle, and certainly didn't need to be talked into using analytics - as a matter of fact I read that he'd seek out certain information to verify something he felt or thought or dispute it. I was always under the impression that Dombrowski let Cora manage as he saw fit, and that the relationship between the manager and GM was one in which the GM and manager had to be on the same page as to how a player acquired would fit into the team. It doesn't make sense if a GM acquires a player that the manager doesn't feel he can use. They have to be on the same page. That makes sense, but I think there are lines that are crossed from front offices, so it's interesting reading what you wrote about Maddon and Cash, and the impression that you're getting from reading Tampa related media.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 27, 2020 23:24:55 GMT -5
So......Alex Cora is no longer suspended. Hopefully Chaim Bloom is picking up the phone as I type this.
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Post by Don Caballero on Oct 28, 2020 0:27:42 GMT -5
Bring him back and I'll consider Mookie water under the bridge.
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Post by manfred on Oct 29, 2020 13:18:18 GMT -5
Bring him back and I'll consider Mookie water under the bridge. Never. 🏴☠️
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Post by greekgodofpancakes on Oct 29, 2020 15:04:34 GMT -5
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jimoh
Veteran
Posts: 3,990
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Post by jimoh on Oct 29, 2020 18:17:01 GMT -5
A friend in another fandom texted me “Tony LaRussa” and I got real scared until I looked it up.
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Smittyw
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Posts: 1,296
Member is Online
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Post by Smittyw on Oct 29, 2020 21:22:11 GMT -5
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Post by Legion of Bloom on Oct 29, 2020 21:24:18 GMT -5
Buster tweeted that they are closing in on an agreement.
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