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2021 Manager Search (Cora Returns)
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 20, 2020 13:53:12 GMT -5
Again, the general implication that has come from a few angles has been that the Astros players threw Cora and Beltran, two guys who weren't there anymore, under the bus as the "masterminds" behind the whole thing. Were they likely heavily involved? Probably. But it seems convenient that the two guys who ran the show happened to not be part of the organization anymore.
I think you have a misconception of how much the coaching staff needs to run by the front office in terms of game management. I'm sure they talk general strategy, but it's not like your machine shop worker is running by the general manager of the shop every specific detail of how they're going to make a part, down to which specific tool they're going to use, which hand they're going to push a button with, which specific pair of goggles they're going to wear, etc. Similarly, I don't think a coaching staff is running by the GM "hey, during a game, we're trying to get the other team's signals in this specific way" whether legal or illegal, just like they're not running by him how they're coaching guys to take leads, how they're telling guys to position defensively, and how they're telling the pitchers to pitch. That's not something that goes to the GM on anything but a very big picture scale.
Now, all that said, I also don't buy that Luhnow didn't know, unless it was willfully so. What did he think the computer by the dugout was for? And let's not forget that this was a guy, along with Crane, who created an organization culture described as "toxic" for any number of reasons beyond this. There's the whole Taubman incident. There's an intern taking photos of the Indians dugout during a game. Being willing to take advantage of the Osuna situation to acquire him on the cheap. Chris Correa, the Cards employee who went to prison for stealing information from Houston, claims he did it after the Astros took information from them first after Luhnow was hired away. Luhnow's got a number of strikes against him. He's no saint, and he's fighting for his professional life right now. Of course he's going to say he didn't know.
And to be very clear, I'm not defending Cora. I admittedly am still working through my thoughts on the subject. I'm just extremely skeptical of Luhnow. Cora was clearly at least very involved in the Astros cheating, without question. And anyway, my main point was that an interview with Luhnow in which the questioner refers to the January report that everyone in the game read isn't going to change anything now.
I'm not sure what your point is with the question. I don't think Bloom wants to hire Cora back to fix something or something like that, if that's what you're getting at. If he hires him back it'll be because he thinks he's the best manager for the job and they can live with the mark on Cora's record. And for what it's worth, the company line was the team and manager "mutually agreed to part ways." I take that to mean that with the uncertainty of the Red Sox investigation looming and what was already out in the Astros report, Cora, Bloom, and ownership all knew they couldn't go into the season with him as the manager.
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Post by grandsalami on Oct 20, 2020 16:49:18 GMT -5
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Post by wcsoxfan on Oct 20, 2020 17:58:24 GMT -5
Again, the general implication that has come from a few angles has been that the Astros players threw Cora and Beltran, two guys who weren't there anymore, under the bus as the "masterminds" behind the whole thing. Were they likely heavily involved? Probably. But it seems convenient that the two guys who ran the show happened to not be part of the organization anymore. I think you have a misconception of how much the coaching staff needs to run by the front office in terms of game management. I'm sure they talk general strategy, but it's not like your machine shop worker is running by the general manager of the shop every specific detail of how they're going to make a part, down to which specific tool they're going to use, which hand they're going to push a button with, which specific pair of goggles they're going to wear, etc. Similarly, I don't think a coaching staff is running by the GM "hey, during a game, we're trying to get the other team's signals in this specific way" whether legal or illegal, just like they're not running by him how they're coaching guys to take leads, how they're telling guys to position defensively, and how they're telling the pitchers to pitch. That's not something that goes to the GM on anything but a very big picture scale. Now, all that said, I also don't buy that Luhnow didn't know, unless it was willfully so. What did he think the computer by the dugout was for? And let's not forget that this was a guy, along with Crane, who created an organization culture described as "toxic" for any number of reasons beyond this. There's the whole Taubman incident. There's an intern taking photos of the Indians dugout during a game. Being willing to take advantage of the Osuna situation to acquire him on the cheap. Chris Correa, the Cards employee who went to prison for stealing information from Houston, claims he did it after the Astros took information from them first after Luhnow was hired away. Luhnow's got a number of strikes against him. He's no saint, and he's fighting for his professional life right now. Of course he's going to say he didn't know. And to be very clear, I'm not defending Cora. I admittedly am still working through my thoughts on the subject. I'm just extremely skeptical of Luhnow. Cora was clearly at least very involved in the Astros cheating, without question. And anyway, my main point was that an interview with Luhnow in which the questioner refers to the January report that everyone in the game read isn't going to change anything now. I'm not sure what your point is with the question. I don't think Bloom wants to hire Cora back to fix something or something like that, if that's what you're getting at. If he hires him back it'll be because he thinks he's the best manager for the job and they can live with the mark on Cora's record. And for what it's worth, the company line was the team and manager "mutually agreed to part ways." I take that to mean that with the uncertainty of the Red Sox investigation looming and what was already out in the Astros report, Cora, Bloom, and ownership all knew they couldn't go into the season with him as the manager. The thing that strikes me as strange in all of this is that Lunhow keeps coming off as a kid trying to blame his little brother for breaking the TV - which he didn't know was broken. He certainly seems to be either willingly ignorant or grossly incompetent, and it's hard to believe that a person in his position could be incompetent. If he were better at this he would take the high road, keep his insistence of innocence, but focus on how it was his responsibility. He should say that this was an unprecedented case and he has learned from the mistakes his club made and what he could do going forward to correct these errors if they ever occurred again. Right now he just seems weak and insecure; and no owner wants that for a high-level front office position - regardless of the cheating.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Oct 20, 2020 18:27:34 GMT -5
Luhnow cut his eyeteeth at McKinsey and that tells me much of what I need to know to evaluate what went down with the Astros. The notion that he wasn't anywhere near the switch when it was thrown is just noise.
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Post by vermontsox1 on Oct 22, 2020 9:42:41 GMT -5
*updated the thread title so it incorporates all manager search discussion
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Oct 22, 2020 23:47:48 GMT -5
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Post by vermontsox1 on Oct 23, 2020 11:19:43 GMT -5
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Post by soxfanatic on Oct 23, 2020 17:09:54 GMT -5
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Post by Don Caballero on Oct 23, 2020 17:54:56 GMT -5
I like Urueta, but seriously don't dilly dally and just bring Cora home.
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Post by Coreno on Oct 23, 2020 19:16:19 GMT -5
I like Urueta, but seriously don't dilly dally and just bring Cora home. I'm not sure how they could dilly dally when they cant even interview him for another week.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 23, 2020 19:48:57 GMT -5
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Oct 24, 2020 8:27:14 GMT -5
I like Urueta, but seriously don't dilly dally and just bring Cora home. I'm not sure how they could dilly dally when they cant even interview him for another week. Do they actually have to interview Cora? I was under the impression that they could just hire whoever as long as certain interviewing benchmarks were met previously. But they can't hire him until after the WS so I guess it doesn't matter.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 24, 2020 8:40:41 GMT -5
Kind of hard to see Bloom interviewing all of these candidates but then simply just turn around and hire Cora after the World Series ends. If the plan was to simply rehire Cora I wouldn't think he'd conduct all of these interviews. My guess is that Urueta is the most likely candidate based on having two interviews with Bloom (the first one prior to Roenicke's promotion).
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Oct 24, 2020 9:31:54 GMT -5
The biggest piece of news from yesterday, though, may be about who won’t be interviewing for the job. Heading into this search many, including myself, viewed Rays bench coach Matt Quatraro as one of the favorites for this job. Well, Sean McAdam is reporting that isn’t happening. According to the Boston Sports Journal reporter, as part of the deal when Chaim Bloom came to the Boston, he cannot hire anyone from the Rays organization until after the 2021 season. That would, of course, leave Quatraro off the list.www.overthemonster.com/2020/10/24/21531629/boston-red-sox-manager-search-matt-quatraro-mike-bell-skip-schumaker-james-rowson
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Post by jdb on Oct 24, 2020 9:39:29 GMT -5
Kind of hard to see Bloom interviewing all of these candidates but then simply just turn around and hire Cora after the World Series ends. If the plan was to simply rehire Cora I wouldn't think he'd conduct all of these interviews. My guess is that Urueta is the most likely candidate based on having two interviews with Bloom (the first one prior to Roenicke's promotion). I would imagine at the minimum he’s using his ability to contact and interview guys from other organizations for future reference or even bench coach opportunities. I wouldn’t read to much into it meaning Cora is less likely.
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Post by manfred on Oct 24, 2020 10:53:04 GMT -5
I realize I am in the minority, but there are only so many manager positions that open up, and there are a ton of guys who bust their asses in the minors or as bench coaches or whatever... I don’t see a reason to hire a guy who cheated and took a one year powder over giving a deserving guy a shot. It is not as if Cora has unique skills, even if he was a good manager. Another guy can be a good manager and clean.
Luhnow, too... even if his story were plausible, the best he can say is he was so negligent a huge scandal happened on his watch. No reason for anyone to hire that guy again. People deserve second chances, but if you are responsible for a train wreck, you don’t necessarily get to be an engineer again.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 25, 2020 0:26:24 GMT -5
Kind of hard to see Bloom interviewing all of these candidates but then simply just turn around and hire Cora after the World Series ends. If the plan was to simply rehire Cora I wouldn't think he'd conduct all of these interviews. My guess is that Urueta is the most likely candidate based on having two interviews with Bloom (the first one prior to Roenicke's promotion). I would imagine at the minimum he’s using his ability to contact and interview guys from other organizations for future reference or even bench coach opportunities. I wouldn’t read to much into it meaning Cora is less likely. I hope you're right, but wouldn't the new manager pick his own bench coach? I look at how the Red Sox have run things. They're usually pretty decisive about who they want. John Henry wanted Billy Beane. He almost had him (well now he does). Dave Dombrowski gets fired in Detroit. Henry dumps Cherington (or makes it so he doesn't want to stick around anymore) and snatched Dombrowski. They didn't really interview anybody else for Baseball Ops chief. They zeroed in on Bloom and hired him. The interview process to hire Cora seemed predetermined. Now granted, it wasn't Bloom making those decisions, but usually when the organization has wanted somebody, they zero in on him quickly and that's all there is. With all of these interviews, it makes me think that the plan wasn't to simply wait out Cora's suspension and rehire him. Maybe Bloom interviews him and compares him to the other candidates and then makes his decision, and maybe it is Cora. I just keep coming back to the thought that Bloom wants his own man and doesn't want the Astros stigma to be a part of his organization, that he's trying to build something brand new and not something that's hanging on from 2018. I guess we'll find out soon enough.
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Post by soxfanatic on Oct 26, 2020 2:16:12 GMT -5
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Post by unitspin on Oct 26, 2020 6:23:34 GMT -5
I realize I am in the minority, but there are only so many manager positions that open up, and there are a ton of guys who bust their asses in the minors or as bench coaches or whatever... I don’t see a reason to hire a guy who cheated and took a one year powder over giving a deserving guy a shot. It is not as if Cora has unique skills, even if he was a good manager. Another guy can be a good manager and clean. Luhnow, too... even if his story were plausible, the best he can say is he was so negligent a huge scandal happened on his watch. No reason for anyone to hire that guy again. People deserve second chances, but if you are responsible for a train wreck, you don’t necessarily get to be an engineer again. I guess I am in the minority as well bcs cora at no time with the red sox showed to be anything but an average coach. Sometimes he took stupid chances with the bullpen and it worked but most the time it did not. They should bring in a fresh face there are plenty of options out there that could right this ship.
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Post by greenmonster on Oct 26, 2020 7:31:52 GMT -5
I realize I am in the minority, but there are only so many manager positions that open up, and there are a ton of guys who bust their asses in the minors or as bench coaches or whatever... I don’t see a reason to hire a guy who cheated and took a one year powder over giving a deserving guy a shot. It is not as if Cora has unique skills, even if he was a good manager. Another guy can be a good manager and clean. Luhnow, too... even if his story were plausible, the best he can say is he was so negligent a huge scandal happened on his watch. No reason for anyone to hire that guy again. People deserve second chances, but if you are responsible for a train wreck, you don’t necessarily get to be an engineer again. I guess I am in the minority as well bcs cora at no time with the red sox showed to be anything but an average coach. Sometimes he took stupid chances with the bullpen and it worked but most the time it did not. They should bring in a fresh face there are plenty of options out there that could right this ship. I agree with this 110%, time to move forward. If the team is rebuilding, there is no reason to start with a shaky foundation.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 26, 2020 7:36:40 GMT -5
I realize I am in the minority, but there are only so many manager positions that open up, and there are a ton of guys who bust their asses in the minors or as bench coaches or whatever... I don’t see a reason to hire a guy who cheated and took a one year powder over giving a deserving guy a shot. It is not as if Cora has unique skills, even if he was a good manager. Another guy can be a good manager and clean. Luhnow, too... even if his story were plausible, the best he can say is he was so negligent a huge scandal happened on his watch. No reason for anyone to hire that guy again. People deserve second chances, but if you are responsible for a train wreck, you don’t necessarily get to be an engineer again. I guess I am in the minority as well bcs cora at no time with the red sox showed to be anything but an average coach. Sometimes he took stupid chances with the bullpen and it worked but most the time it did not. They should bring in a fresh face there are plenty of options out there that could right this ship. I didn't see "average" when Cora was with the Red Sox. I think he fired up his players from Day 1 of spring training in 2018 and that attitude from the team mirrored him the whole entire season. Unfortunately that seemed to be the case as well in 2019 when things were so lax there never seemed to be a sense of urgency from the team, either. You can certainly dispute the X's and O's. Cora's pedal to the metal in the 2018 post-season had me shaking my head beforehand and admiring afterwards as it certainly worked. I can tell you that a lot of the previous managers the Sox have had wouldn't had won the World Series, going through NYY, Houston, and LA with that 2018 team. He did make mistakes, some big like allowing E-Rod to stay in to face Puig in Game 4 of the World Series - which he admitted to his credit. His maneuverings left the Red Sox with a spring training lineup and messed up defense in Game 3 of the World Series, but he still had them in position to win if not for an error from a defensively reliable 2b. The bigger takeaway from me regarding Cora was the way he tied together the analytics department with the buy-in that he got from the players. Players are not always warm to suggestions from upstairs, but Cora had them all on the same page and it showed in 2018. The players loved playing for him, which is also important. A manager has to make the players feel comfortable but also know who to kick in the butt when needed, and his kicking in the butt at times attitude seemed to mature E-Rod and Vazquez as players, but it wasn't a kick in the butt the way Dick Williams would do and cause hurt feelings. He had the right touch of a mentor. Is he the only guy capable of those things? No. I'd prefer to go with a guy who has done, has the ability to do it, and is very likely to do it. It doesn't mean that any of the other guys can't or won't, and honestly, I suspect Bloom might just find what he's looking for in the group he has already interviewed, because if one of those candidates has those qualities, is somebody Bloom feels can be a partner to him, and doesn't have the baggage, then Cora's chances to return would be greatly diminished. I think the feeling is that it's just a matter of time before Cora returns, but I honestly don't think that's the case. I hope it is because I think Cora was a fine manager with room for growth, and I got the sense that Cora craves working in Boston, which is something that's not true of all managers given the atmosphere (and yes, Cora could handle the tough Boston press with aplomb, which is something that not all past managers could do).
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 26, 2020 8:23:03 GMT -5
Say whatever you want about the cheating thing, but man, "Alex Cora isn't a good manager" is one hell of a take.
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Post by Smittyw on Oct 26, 2020 8:37:15 GMT -5
I just keep coming back to the thought that Bloom wants his own man and doesn't want the Astros stigma to be a part of his organization, that he's trying to build something brand new and not something that's hanging on from 2018. Agreed. As much as I'd love for Cora to be the choice and think he would be in a perfect world, all the buzz about him being the "favorite" just feels kind of suspect. The idea that Bloom or the Red Sox in general would want to begin the process of moving past the tumult of the past 12 months by reinviting a million questions about cheating in 2017-18 is pretty wild when you think about it, when you could just roll with Urueta or another fresh young face who won't arrive with a cloud hanging over him. I guess we'll see.
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Post by unitspin on Oct 26, 2020 9:03:52 GMT -5
Say whatever you want about the cheating thing, but man, "Alex Cora isn't a good manager" is one hell of a take. Who said he wasn't a good coach?
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Post by iakovos11 on Oct 26, 2020 10:22:42 GMT -5
Say whatever you want about the cheating thing, but man, "Alex Cora isn't a good manager" is one hell of a take. Who said he wasn't a good coach? Seriously? You, 6 posts above (3 hours ago) - "I guess I am in the minority as well bcs cora at no time with the red sox showed to be anything but an average coach."
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