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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 21, 2021 9:20:35 GMT -5
Why are we even having this conversation? Bogaerts is under contract for at least 2 more years. Who knows what the landscape looks like then? Who even knows if X is a viable defensive SS after two more season? It's not just X. Even with Story, any free agent SS you sign, that unless they're 25 or younger, you're going to have to seriously consider moving them off of SS at some point, which you have to consider when making that contract offer. With X, that means you're going to wind up paying big $ for most of a new contract with him at 3b and a declining season or two of being a SS. Again, not saying they shouldn't re-sign X. Just saying that he'll be looking to get paid as a SS, but will most likely be a 3b. If anybody left on this roster should be a Red Sox for life, it's X. Then again, I thought the same thing about Mookie and that didn't happen, about Jon Lester, and that didn't happen, etc. At the end of the day it's an emotional attachment, but I'm still loyal to the laundry (although I can still be happy for the emotional attachment like being happy/wistful for Mookie or Tom Brady of finding championship success, even if it's not with my teams.)
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Post by fenwaydouble on Feb 21, 2021 10:24:28 GMT -5
Why are we even having this conversation? Bogaerts is under contract for at least 2 more years. Who knows what the landscape looks like then? Who even knows if X is a viable defensive SS after two more season? It's not just X. Even with Story, any free agent SS you sign, that unless they're 25 or younger, you're going to have to seriously consider moving them off of SS at some point, which you have to consider when making that contract offer. With X, that means you're going to wind up paying big $ for most of a new contract with him at 3b and a declining season or two of being a SS. Again, not saying they shouldn't re-sign X. Just saying that he'll be looking to get paid as a SS, but will most likely be a 3b. If anybody left on this roster should be a Red Sox for life, it's X. Then again, I thought the same thing about Mookie and that didn't happen, about Jon Lester, and that didn't happen, etc. At the end of the day it's an emotional attachment, but I'm still loyal to the laundry (although I can still be happy for the emotional attachment like being happy/wistful for Mookie or Tom Brady of finding championship success, even if it's not with my teams.) It just feels useless to spend energy thinking about this now, because it's the most stable position in the whole organization for the time being. It would be one thing if someone was making the case that we need to trade Bogaerts right now, but this thread is mostly clueless speculation about whether he opts out 2 years from now and whether he'd refuse to move to 3B.
We don't know what the CBT will look like then. We don't know what the SS market will look like then. We don't even know if Xander will be good then. So what's the point? Why not make a thread stressing about the future of third base once Devers retires?
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Post by DesignatedForAssignment on Feb 21, 2021 10:58:11 GMT -5
The landscape changes quickly. Too quickly for those clinging to the past.
By July, will Jeter be the club's best SS? Will Dalbec be their best 3B?
A trade of X makes sense ... 1 1/2 seasons of control ... new team extends QO. Gets compensation.
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Post by manfred on Feb 21, 2021 11:18:26 GMT -5
The landscape changes quickly. Too quickly for those clinging to the past. By July, will Jeter be the club's best SS? Will Dalbec be their best 3B? A trade of X makes sense ... 1 1/2 seasons of control ... new team extends QO. Gets compensation. Being a fan is based in good part on the past. Continuity. Memory. Nostalgia. One of the greatest parts of baseball is how it bridges past, present, and future. Cling on! Or buy jersey with velcro backs! And... Xander is 28. I honestly don’t understand people who feel so sanguine about changing out stars. The Red Sox are not a shirt or a FO... they are the team of Teddy Ballgame, Yaz, Jim Ed, Papi... because those guys lasted. They’ll never be the team of Ruth, Lynn, Fisk, or Mookie... and that is a bummer. And it seems especially weird to follow guys starting in low A when they are teens, spend years in cases getting attached to names, rumors mostly... then see them explode on the scene.... only to go ice cold and become a pack of actuaries. I’d rather lose with guys I love than win with rented automatons.
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Post by incandenza on Feb 21, 2021 11:19:04 GMT -5
The landscape changes quickly. Too quickly for those clinging to the past. By July, will Jeter be the club's best SS? Will Dalbec be their best 3B? A trade of X makes sense ... 1 1/2 seasons of control ... new team extends QO. Gets compensation. I'll take the under on Downs being better than Bogaerts and Dalbec being better than Devers by July.
You're talking about the team's two best players. Not to play manfred's music, but they have to keep some of their stars...
...
Another thing about this $30 million/year talk: by 2023 Bogaerts is most likely either a poor defensive SS or a 1B/DH, right? Even if he maintains a 130 wRC+ that's not a $30 million player.
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Post by ematz1423 on Feb 21, 2021 11:34:43 GMT -5
The landscape changes quickly. Too quickly for those clinging to the past. By July, will Jeter be the club's best SS? Will Dalbec be their best 3B? A trade of X makes sense ... 1 1/2 seasons of control ... new team extends QO. Gets compensation. I'll take the under on Downs being better than Bogaerts and Dalbec being better than Devers by July.
You're talking about the team's two best players. Not to play manfred's music, but they have to keep some of their stars...
...
Another thing about this $30 million/year talk: by 2023 Bogaerts is most likely either a poor defensive SS or a 1B/DH, right? Even if he maintains a 130 wRC+ that's not a $30 million player.
Bogearts issues fielding are due to his range. His glove itself is pretty solid I believe. I would think sliding to 3rd makes more sense than 1st/dh.
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Post by incandenza on Feb 21, 2021 11:40:16 GMT -5
I'll take the under on Downs being better than Bogaerts and Dalbec being better than Devers by July.
You're talking about the team's two best players. Not to play manfred's music, but they have to keep some of their stars...
...
Another thing about this $30 million/year talk: by 2023 Bogaerts is most likely either a poor defensive SS or a 1B/DH, right? Even if he maintains a 130 wRC+ that's not a $30 million player.
Bogearts issues fielding are due to his range. His glove itself is pretty solid I believe. I would think sliding to 3rd makes more sense than 1st/dh. Maybe so! But I am more optimistic than most that Devers ends up being a really strong defensive third baseman and think they'll want to keep him there.
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Post by ematz1423 on Feb 21, 2021 11:42:45 GMT -5
Bogearts issues fielding are due to his range. His glove itself is pretty solid I believe. I would think sliding to 3rd makes more sense than 1st/dh. Maybe so! But I am more optimistic than most that Devers ends up being a really strong defensive third baseman and think they'll want to keep him there. True Devers was showing some real signs of improvement in 2019 I believe, maybe Cora helped? Hopefully with Cora back again we see that same trajectory.
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Post by iakovos11 on Feb 21, 2021 11:57:41 GMT -5
I'll take the under on Downs being better than Bogaerts and Dalbec being better than Devers by July. You're talking about the team's two best players. Not to play manfred's music, but they have to keep some of their stars... ...
Another thing about this $30 million/year talk: by 2023 Bogaerts is most likely either a poor defensive SS or a 1B/DH, right? Even if he maintains a 130 wRC+ that's not a $30 million player.
Bogearts issues fielding are due to his range. His glove itself is pretty solid I believe. I would think sliding to 3rd makes more sense than 1st/dh. Maybe LF?
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Feb 21, 2021 12:30:42 GMT -5
The landscape changes quickly. Too quickly for those clinging to the past. By July, will Jeter be the club's best SS? Will Dalbec be their best 3B? A trade of X makes sense ... 1 1/2 seasons of control ... new team extends QO. Gets compensation. Being a fan is based in good part on the past. Continuity. Memory. Nostalgia. One of the greatest parts of baseball is how it bridges past, present, and future. Cling on! Or buy jersey with velcro backs! And... Xander is 28. I honestly don’t understand people who feel so sanguine about changing out stars. The Red Sox are not a shirt or a FO... they are the team of Teddy Ballgame, Yaz, Jim Ed, Papi... because those guys lasted. They’ll never be the team of Ruth, Lynn, Fisk, or Mookie... and that is a bummer. And it seems especially weird to follow guys starting in low A when they are teens, spend years in cases getting attached to names, rumors mostly... then see them explode on the scene.... only to go ice cold and become a pack of actuaries. I’d rather lose with guys I love than win with rented automatons. The Red Soxover the years have employed a lot of home grown players on their championship teams. Red Sox 2018 - home grown - 6 starters Bogaerts Devers Benintendi Bradley Betts Vazquez Bench- Swihart Lin Travis Pitchers - not so much Barnes Workman Johnson
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Feb 21, 2021 12:40:53 GMT -5
Dodgers had buehler ( who was a late first round pick as a pitcher coming off Tommy John and was an overdraft at that). Kershaw ( legit) verdugo ( who wasn’t that highly rated) bellinger ( wasn’t major prospect). Lux ( hasn’t done anything yet). Smith ( another non top prospect). They relied on scouting and development while making plays for superior talent at their cost evaluations. I’m not saying Sox should or shouldn’t sign Xander. I’m simply saying boras as his agent and his production likely means bye bye Xander so I Wouldn’t be shocked to see a shortstop drafted at 4 with a shortstop heavy draft this year ( if one shows they are worthy of a top 4-6 pick). Wait, so I even know what you're taking about, do you mean these players weren't top draft prospects or weren't top prospects in the minors? Neither is correct but I'm trying to figure out what you're saying.
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Post by manfred on Feb 21, 2021 12:45:24 GMT -5
Being a fan is based in good part on the past. Continuity. Memory. Nostalgia. One of the greatest parts of baseball is how it bridges past, present, and future. Cling on! Or buy jersey with velcro backs! And... Xander is 28. I honestly don’t understand people who feel so sanguine about changing out stars. The Red Sox are not a shirt or a FO... they are the team of Teddy Ballgame, Yaz, Jim Ed, Papi... because those guys lasted. They’ll never be the team of Ruth, Lynn, Fisk, or Mookie... and that is a bummer. And it seems especially weird to follow guys starting in low A when they are teens, spend years in cases getting attached to names, rumors mostly... then see them explode on the scene.... only to go ice cold and become a pack of actuaries. I’d rather lose with guys I love than win with rented automatons. The Red Soxover the years have employed a lot of home grown players on their championship teams. Red Sox 2018 - home grown - 6 starters Bogaerts Devers Benintendi Bradley Betts Vazquez Bench- Swihart Lin Travis Pitchers - not so much Barnes Workman Johnson May it be so again!
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Feb 21, 2021 12:53:21 GMT -5
Being a fan is based in good part on the past. Continuity. Memory. Nostalgia. One of the greatest parts of baseball is how it bridges past, present, and future. Cling on! Or buy jersey with velcro backs! And... Xander is 28. I honestly don’t understand people who feel so sanguine about changing out stars. The Red Sox are not a shirt or a FO... they are the team of Teddy Ballgame, Yaz, Jim Ed, Papi... because those guys lasted. They’ll never be the team of Ruth, Lynn, Fisk, or Mookie... and that is a bummer. And it seems especially weird to follow guys starting in low A when they are teens, spend years in cases getting attached to names, rumors mostly... then see them explode on the scene.... only to go ice cold and become a pack of actuaries. I’d rather lose with guys I love than win with rented automatons. The Red Soxover the years have employed a lot of home grown players on their championship teams. Red Sox 2018 - home grown - 6 starters Bogaerts Devers Benintendi Bradley Betts Vazquez Bench- Swihart Lin Travis Pitchers - not so much Barnes Workman Johnson The collective bargaining agreement has a huge impact on how front offices spends and whether it is worth it to keep players long term. Fans forget that players who are drafted and sign are stuck with the team who signs them for as many as seven years or longer (Workman drafted in 2010 just became a FA this offseason - 10 years after being drafted). If the player is not fond of the team, town, weather, or for other reasons they WILL leave! The player is free to make that choice and there is NOTHING the team can do to stop the player from leaving through free agency other than offering more money. I for one would sign a smaller contract to live where I want! We only live once and to me it is worth a little less as every day and year is precious. I love the Red Sox and have been a huge fan for 51 years (watch every game, have read every box score AAA, AA, A the last 51 years), but my family is scattered in the western half of the USA. I would never resign with the Red Sox because of family, hate the humidity, allergies... You can not blame players who choose to move on to somewhere else. You also can not blame teams for looking for the next star. Older players get hurt more, decline faster, and become less effective as they age (except David Ortiz). Young players simply are a lesser risk. Turnover is inevitable in baseball and life.
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Post by foreverred9 on Feb 21, 2021 12:54:38 GMT -5
Being a fan is based in good part on the past. Continuity. Memory. Nostalgia. One of the greatest parts of baseball is how it bridges past, present, and future. Cling on! Or buy jersey with velcro backs! And... Xander is 28. I honestly don’t understand people who feel so sanguine about changing out stars. The Red Sox are not a shirt or a FO... they are the team of Teddy Ballgame, Yaz, Jim Ed, Papi... because those guys lasted. They’ll never be the team of Ruth, Lynn, Fisk, or Mookie... and that is a bummer. And it seems especially weird to follow guys starting in low A when they are teens, spend years in cases getting attached to names, rumors mostly... then see them explode on the scene.... only to go ice cold and become a pack of actuaries. I’d rather lose with guys I love than win with rented automatons. I'm with you 100% on that last statement, it sucks to see our homegrown talent leave us and if we're going to overspend on free agents let's do it on our own. If we can only have 7-8 10M+ players on our roster each year, let's be thoughtful and treat our own well. I've been harping on this in other threads, but the current economics of the system are so flawed right now - I think we all know that players are undervalued through 6 year and overvalued after year 6. But I don't think it's as clear how much that's skewing the financials. To put some numbers behind that statement, I believe the cost per WAR on the open market is 8M. I think that's a flawed number, because when I look at total WAR per season of ~1000 and total salaries of about 4.5B, that shows a cost per WAR of 4.5M. What I think that means is that the 8M is overstating the value of a free agent because teams understate the value of young players. 4.5M = X% * 8M (i.e. free agents) + (1 - X%) * Y (i.e. players under control) And until the CBA fixes this flaw, teams who maximize the WAR gained from young players while not being stupid on the free agency market (i.e. have no dead-money among those 7-8 10M+ players) will win.
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Feb 21, 2021 12:56:39 GMT -5
The Red Soxover the years have employed a lot of home grown players on their championship teams. Red Sox 2018 - home grown - 6 starters Bogaerts Devers Benintendi Bradley Betts Vazquez Bench- Swihart Lin Travis Pitchers - not so much Barnes Workman Johnson The collective bargaining agreement has a huge impact on how front offices spends and whether it is worth it to keep players long term. Fans forget that players who are drafted and sign are stuck with the team who signs them for as many as seven years or longer (Workman drafted in 2010 just became a FA this offseason - 10 years after being drafted). If the player is not fond of the team, town, weather, or for other reasons they WILL leave! The player is free to make that choice and there is NOTHING the team can do to stop the player from leaving through free agency other than offering more money. I for one would sign a smaller contract to live where I want! We only live once and to me it is worth a little less as every day and year is precious. I love the Red Sox and have been a huge fan for 51 years (watch every game, have read every box score AAA, AA, A the last 51 years), but my family is scattered in the western half of the USA. I would never resign with the Red Sox because of family, hate the humidity, allergies... You can not blame players who choose to move on to somewhere else. You also can not blame teams for looking for the next star. Older players get hurt more, decline faster, and become less effective as they age (except David Ortiz). Young players simply are a lesser risk. Turnover is inevitable in baseball and life. All that said I would much rather watch home grown players....I agree with Manfred on that point !
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Post by blizzards39 on Feb 21, 2021 12:59:29 GMT -5
The collective bargaining agreement has a huge impact on how front offices spends and whether it is worth it to keep players long term. Fans forget that players who are drafted and sign are stuck with the team who signs them for as many as seven years or longer (Workman drafted in 2010 just became a FA this offseason - 10 years after being drafted). If the player is not fond of the team, town, weather, or for other reasons they WILL leave! The player is free to make that choice and there is NOTHING the team can do to stop the player from leaving through free agency other than offering more money. I for one would sign a smaller contract to live where I want! We only live once and to me it is worth a little less as every day and year is precious. I love the Red Sox and have been a huge fan for 51 years (watch every game, have read every box score AAA, AA, A the last 51 years), but my family is scattered in the western half of the USA. I would never resign with the Red Sox because of family, hate the humidity, allergies... You can not blame players who choose to move on to somewhere else. You also can not blame teams for looking for the next star. Older players get hurt more, decline faster, and become less effective as they age (except David Ortiz). Young players simply are a lesser risk. Turnover is inevitable in baseball and life. All that said I would much rather watch home grown players....I agree with Manfred on that point ! I agree on homegrown players, but in the nature of modern sports and the MLB CBA and pay structure it just dosnt happen all that offer anymore. That said I sure hope X is maybe one guy who dose stick around long term.
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Post by manfred on Feb 21, 2021 13:00:39 GMT -5
The Red Soxover the years have employed a lot of home grown players on their championship teams. Red Sox 2018 - home grown - 6 starters Bogaerts Devers Benintendi Bradley Betts Vazquez Bench- Swihart Lin Travis Pitchers - not so much Barnes Workman Johnson The collective bargaining agreement has a huge impact on how front offices spends and whether it is worth it to keep players long term. Fans forget that players who are drafted and sign are stuck with the team who signs them for as many as seven years or longer (Workman drafted in 2010 just became a FA this offseason - 10 years after being drafted). If the player is not fond of the team, town, weather, or for other reasons they WILL leave! The player is free to make that choice and there is NOTHING the team can do to stop the player from leaving through free agency other than offering more money. I for one would sign a smaller contract to live where I want! We only live once and to me it is worth a little less as every day and year is precious. I love the Red Sox and have been a huge fan for 51 years (watch every game, have read every box score AAA, AA, A the last 51 years), but my family is scattered in the western half of the USA. I would never resign with the Red Sox because of family, hate the humidity, allergies... You can not blame players who choose to move on to somewhere else. You also can not blame teams for looking for the next star. Older players get hurt more, decline faster, and become less effective as they age (except David Ortiz). Young players simply are a lesser risk. Turnover is inevitable in baseball and life. This is certainly true, and if guys leave to make huge amounts for the Padres, who can blame them. But I think many guys also know that it still means something to play your whole career for one team. Also, you come ip with guys who become your friends, your support system etc. And on... all I mean is scenarios go in all directions. I actually often wonder about getting traded or leaving a team on a human level. When I was 28, say, the idea of moving towns, having all new coworkers etc. and just having to jump right in to max performance? That would be a struggle. I don’t mean this as a direct response... more just musing.
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Post by beasleyrockah on Feb 21, 2021 13:12:31 GMT -5
The two players I enjoyed watching the most (Pedro and Ortiz) were not home grown. The 2004 team was mostly led by acquisitions from other teams. Yes, I prefer a mostly home grown superstar team as a concept, but it's not nearly that simple. Would you prefer to watch Carl Pavano and Tony Armas Jr over Pedro Martinez? Was Pedro not a "true" Red Sox because he played with other teams before and after? The best teams have a combination of the two. In reality, I just want entertaining players, hopefully with charisma and personality.
I'd love for Xander to be a life long Red Sox, but I also don't want the team overpaying just because they lost Mookie either, that doesn't make any sense. Luckily, based on his last extension, it seems like Xander wants to be here and doesn't feel the need to max out every dollar. Cora's presence can only help.
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Post by manfred on Feb 21, 2021 13:19:34 GMT -5
The two players I enjoyed watching the most (Pedro and Ortiz) were not home grown. The 2004 team was mostly led by acquisitions from other teams. Yes, I prefer a mostly home grown superstar team as a concept, but it's not nearly that simple. Would you prefer to watch Carl Pavano and Tony Armas Jr over Pedro Martinez? Was Pedro not a "true" Red Sox because he played with other teams before and after? The best teams have a combination of the two. In reality, I just want entertaining players, hopefully with charisma and personality. I'd love for Xander to be a life long Red Sox, but I also don't want the team overpaying just because they lost Mookie either, that doesn't make any sense. Luckily, based on his last extension, it seems like Xander wants to be here and doesn't feel the need to max out every dollar. Cora's presence can only help. I am not making some Manichean point... obviously I loved Papi and Pedro. And there is no way a team has 20-something homegrown guys. But there are not actually a lot of guys they’ve brought in, even stars, that I’ve loved like the home guys. And... with home guys you know them. Their skill but also their gut. You go out and spend to replace them, you risk a Panda or a Carl Crawford or an Adrian Gonzalez, guys who were never comfortable. Even Price. This has moved into abstract territory, so I’ll leave it there. More concretely, it seems like there are teams pegged to finish ahead of us who have figured out how to win with some huge contracts — go figure, having stars for the long haul helps.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Feb 21, 2021 13:24:05 GMT -5
I'd generally agree that it's more fun to win with Homegrown players, but it's always a balance right? And I think fans (and if we're being honest, those saying here they want Homegrown guys to stick around) care more about just not having mercenaries than whether a guy is homegrown. I always point to '04 team. The line homegrown star got traded midyear! But guys like Pedro and Manny had been around long enough they felt like the same thing. Ortiz was in his second year with the club and we loved him already.
I think what we want is not to just have a full churn. It's really cool when a guy spends his career with your favorite team because you spend your fandom with that team as well. I get that and feel the same! But it probably, at base, is very similar to the common refrain about clubhouse chemistry, in which there's something of a chicken/egg issue with winning and happy locker rooms. Recall when the MLB team wasn't doing well under Cherington and people wanted him to start dealing from the farm to fix it rather than hoarding?
Best case is 2018 where home-grown stars lead your team to a championship, but I don't buy the "I'd rather lose with homegrown guys than win with free agents" sentiment.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 21, 2021 13:29:54 GMT -5
The landscape changes quickly. Too quickly for those clinging to the past. By July, will Jeter be the club's best SS? Will Dalbec be their best 3B? A trade of X makes sense ... 1 1/2 seasons of control ... new team extends QO. Gets compensation. Being a fan is based in good part on the past. Continuity. Memory. Nostalgia. One of the greatest parts of baseball is how it bridges past, present, and future. Cling on! Or buy jersey with velcro backs! And... Xander is 28. I honestly don’t understand people who feel so sanguine about changing out stars. The Red Sox are not a shirt or a FO... they are the team of Teddy Ballgame, Yaz, Jim Ed, Papi... because those guys lasted. They’ll never be the team of Ruth, Lynn, Fisk, or Mookie... and that is a bummer. And it seems especially weird to follow guys starting in low A when they are teens, spend years in cases getting attached to names, rumors mostly... then see them explode on the scene.... only to go ice cold and become a pack of actuaries. I’d rather lose with guys I love than win with rented automatons. I 100% respect your views, even if I don't understand Ortiz because he wasn't a homegrown guy. Yet most fans want to win at all costs. I loved Nomar, I enjoyed watching him hit, him flirting with .400, I was crazy pissed when he was traded. Yet I certainly wanted a Championship more. I wouldn't trade Championships so I can watch guys I like. Nevermind our four Championships have all been a mix of homegrown players and players we brought in. Did you really not enjoy the early years because Manny, Ortiz, Pedro, Schilling, Damon, Beckett, etc, etc were not home grown players? Can't we root for Martinez to be the next Ortiz? Hell he's having a slump just like Ortiz did that makes you question if he's done. Now all he needs to do is bounce back and help us win another Championship. I'm also kinda surprised that your so rigid on keeping our homegrown players, yet don't want to follow the young guys in the low minors. That's the big connection for me. Following these guys for years before they hit the majors, then watching them turn into stars. No games are more much watch than when a good young player that I've followed for years reaches the majors. Chavis hasn't been great, yet he's a much watch AB everytime for me. I can't wait to see Mata who it feels like we've talked about for a decade already. Like I said before I don't think Bogaerts goes anywhere, he wants to be here. Yet if trading him sets the foundation for a few more Championships, I'll help pack his bags and I've been following him since he was 17.
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Post by manfred on Feb 21, 2021 13:33:52 GMT -5
I'd generally agree that it's more fun to win with Homegrown players, but it's always a balance right? And I think fans (and if we're being honest, those saying here they want Homegrown guys to stick around) care more about just not having mercenaries than whether a guy is homegrown. I always point to '04 team. The line homegrown star got traded midyear! But guys like Pedro and Manny had been around long enough they felt like the same thing. Ortiz was in his second year with the club and we loved him already. I think what we want is not to just have a full churn. It's really cool when a guy spends his career with your favorite team because you spend your fandom with that team as well. I get that and feel the same! But it probably, at base, is very similar to the common refrain about clubhouse chemistry, in which there's something of a chicken/egg issue with winning and happy locker rooms. Recall when the MLB team wasn't doing well under Cherington and people wanted him to start dealing from the farm to fix it rather than hoarding? Best case is 2018 where home-grown stars lead your team to a championship, but I don't buy the "I'd rather lose with homegrown guys than win with free agents" sentiment. Ok... really last thing: as I said I’m not Manichean... nor am I dogmatic. The context is Xander. This is a guy who has been huge and is 28. If there is any guy (well, now...) to commit to, it is him. I am not saying commit to *everyone* — hell, I’ve been advocating trading CVaz for a year and a half. And I’m not saying there is only one way to do things. I will say, with a guy like JDM, a guy I consider the ultimate automaton FA piece, when he retires, I will have zero memory or affection. I appreciate his help, and he has been paid. Transaction complete. But to me, when a Yankee fan walks with his kid into Yankee Stadium and points to Jeter’s number, he gets a glow thinking of rings, the captain etc.... there is no grousing about range in his last few years. That shared experience transcends other stuff. I would like to imagine someday that will be the case with Xander.
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Post by manfred on Feb 21, 2021 13:35:50 GMT -5
Being a fan is based in good part on the past. Continuity. Memory. Nostalgia. One of the greatest parts of baseball is how it bridges past, present, and future. Cling on! Or buy jersey with velcro backs! And... Xander is 28. I honestly don’t understand people who feel so sanguine about changing out stars. The Red Sox are not a shirt or a FO... they are the team of Teddy Ballgame, Yaz, Jim Ed, Papi... because those guys lasted. They’ll never be the team of Ruth, Lynn, Fisk, or Mookie... and that is a bummer. And it seems especially weird to follow guys starting in low A when they are teens, spend years in cases getting attached to names, rumors mostly... then see them explode on the scene.... only to go ice cold and become a pack of actuaries. I’d rather lose with guys I love than win with rented automatons. I 100% respect your views, even if I don't understand Ortiz because he wasn't a homegrown guy. Yet most fans want to win at all costs. I loved Nomar, I enjoyed watching him hit, him flirting with .400, I was crazy pissed when he was traded. Yet I certainly wanted a Championship more. I wouldn't trade Championships so I can watch guys I like. Nevermind our four Championships have all been a mix of homegrown players and players we brought in. Did you really not enjoy the early years because Manny, Ortiz, Pedro, Schilling, Damon, Beckett, etc, etc were not home grown players? Can't we root for Martinez to be the next Ortiz? Hell he's having a slump just like Ortiz did that makes you question if he's done. Now all he needs to do is bounce back and help us win another Championship. I'm also kinda surprised that your so rigid on keeping our homegrown players, yet don't want to follow the young guys in the low minors. That's the big connection for me. Following these guys for years before they hit the majors, then watching them turn into stars. No games are more much watch than when a good young player that I've followed for years reaches the majors. Chavis hasn't been great, yet he's a much watch AB everytime for me. I can't wait to see Mata who it feels like we've talked about for a decade already. Like I said before I don't think Bogaerts goes anywhere, he wants to be here. Yet if trading him sets the foundation for a few more Championships, I'll help pack his bags and I've been following him since he was 17. I never said I don’t follow guys in the low minors. I said I don’t count on them. I’m not penciling lineups for 2026 with Rookie ball players. That is a huge difference.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 21, 2021 13:49:02 GMT -5
I 100% respect your views, even if I don't understand Ortiz because he wasn't a homegrown guy. Yet most fans want to win at all costs. I loved Nomar, I enjoyed watching him hit, him flirting with .400, I was crazy pissed when he was traded. Yet I certainly wanted a Championship more. I wouldn't trade Championships so I can watch guys I like. Nevermind our four Championships have all been a mix of homegrown players and players we brought in. Did you really not enjoy the early years because Manny, Ortiz, Pedro, Schilling, Damon, Beckett, etc, etc were not home grown players? Can't we root for Martinez to be the next Ortiz? Hell he's having a slump just like Ortiz did that makes you question if he's done. Now all he needs to do is bounce back and help us win another Championship. I'm also kinda surprised that your so rigid on keeping our homegrown players, yet don't want to follow the young guys in the low minors. That's the big connection for me. Following these guys for years before they hit the majors, then watching them turn into stars. No games are more much watch than when a good young player that I've followed for years reaches the majors. Chavis hasn't been great, yet he's a much watch AB everytime for me. I can't wait to see Mata who it feels like we've talked about for a decade already. Like I said before I don't think Bogaerts goes anywhere, he wants to be here. Yet if trading him sets the foundation for a few more Championships, I'll help pack his bags and I've been following him since he was 17. I never said I don’t follow guys in the low minors. I said I don’t count on them. I’m not penciling lineups for 2026 with Rookie ball players. That is a huge difference. Go back and read what you said, you said it was weird to follow players in their teens. I love your passion, yet you are all over the place.
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Post by dyoungteach on Feb 21, 2021 13:58:02 GMT -5
Dodgers had buehler ( who was a late first round pick as a pitcher coming off Tommy John and was an overdraft at that). Kershaw ( legit) verdugo ( who wasn’t that highly rated) bellinger ( wasn’t major prospect). Lux ( hasn’t done anything yet). Smith ( another non top prospect). They
Kershaw was only major prospect of them accept lux who hasn’t done anything yet. My point remains. We will build through draft, trades, and international deals. Major free agent signings ( accept very targeted ones) won’t be prevalent. I don’t view a top 50 prospect as a major elite guy. We will build exactly as we are now, with depth and options and the ability to trade some away for an elite player at a hole when it appears. So sticking with title of this thread I feel shortstop will be a target area at first pick especially with uncertainty of Xander.
We will build to compete regularly. Rather than dominate for 2-3 years and then be flat
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