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Post by electricityverdugo99 on Feb 22, 2021 21:39:26 GMT -5
I mean, yeah I can until someone disproves the idea that DRS isn't the best defensive metric to use. Other stats be damned. Defensive runs saved, pretty much explains itself here. Seriously though, I wasn't making a point about Bogaerts when I asked. Do you actually have a reason for this or are you just here to start arguments and annoy people? Because it really is coming off like the latter. Per DRS, Story is a much better defender than Bogaerts. Nobody is denying this. Nobody is using errors - posters are citing other advanced defensive metrics and trying to engage in a conversation about this, and your response is basically just "nope, you're wrong, DRS." If you're going to just be a smart-ass and play move the goalposts in response to genuine questions rather than actually participate in the discourse, that's going to be an issue. I have barely even posted outside of this thread in the past week. I just take it as people attacking my posts when you know, OPS+ and wRC+ are trump offensive stats, for example. DRS should be used as such, along with outs above average (which I got a limited understanding of, I admit). I don't have a reason for thinking this way other than every major publication- ESPN, MLB Network, even national broadcasts use this as this first go to defensive metric they use (DRS). So it's got to be the best one or not everyone one would use it. It's everywhere.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
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Post by TearsIn04 on Feb 22, 2021 21:42:18 GMT -5
I've actually thought for months that CB is likely to move Devers, probably next off-season. I don't see CB a.) paying out huge $$$ for a corner IF who's a lousy defender and is likely to get bulkier and fatter, expecially if he keeps the same disregard for conditioning; b.) waiting until after 2022 by which time Raffie will have only one year of team control left, thus diminishing his trade value; or c.) sticking with a Swiss cheese left side of the IF. A Devers trade next off-season would let X. move to 3B and set up Casas and Dalbec to fight for 1B/DH playing time. I also think bringing in another prospect haul after 2021 fits nicely with the goal of setting the RS up for a big run starting in 2023. I'd be Ok with a reasonable, long-term extension for X. Boras is sure to seek additional opt-outs, probably starting after year 3. I'd hope that the RS would have the stomach to let him walk and become someone else's mistake if he opts out at 33 or 34 and gets big money. Trading Devers is insane. Guy is 25, had a mad year in 2019. How many prospects are there better than a 25 year old who already had that year? I think Devers might have suffered as much as anyone from last year’s chaos. If there is anyone who we can expect a Cora-dividend from, it’s him. If he is an average fielder at 3b, with his offensive upside I can’t imagine what reasonable package would make that worth it. I like the kid too. And just like you, I hope Cora can get in his ear, especially on conditioning. But he's a lousy fielder and his body and defense could easily go all Mo Vaughn as he gets older. You also want to sign X. to big money, right? Do you really foresee those two on the left side for years to come with their defensive limitations? Those limitations are probably going to get worse. Guys don't gain range as they age and Raffie is already pudgy. The stats that Red Sox Stats posted are eye-popping. A trade wouldn't have to bring back someone better than Devers. The players they would acquire would be under team control and making millions less than him for years. That's money to spread over the rest of the team. I think CB is trying to build a farm system that provides a steady flow of young (and therefore cheap) players and supplement that with smart extensions like the one he gave X and FAs who make nice fits.
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Post by manfred on Feb 22, 2021 21:53:15 GMT -5
Trading Devers is insane. Guy is 25, had a mad year in 2019. How many prospects are there better than a 25 year old who already had that year? I think Devers might have suffered as much as anyone from last year’s chaos. If there is anyone who we can expect a Cora-dividend from, it’s him. If he is an average fielder at 3b, with his offensive upside I can’t imagine what reasonable package would make that worth it. I like the kid too. And just like you, I hope Cora can get in his ear, especially on conditioning. But he's a lousy fielder and his body and defense could easily go all Mo Vaughn as he gets older. You also want to sign X. to big money, right? Do you really foresee those two on the left side for years to come with their defensive limitations? Those limitations are probably going to get worse. Guys don't gain range as they age and Raffie is already pudgy. The stats that Red Sox Stats posted are eye-popping. A trade wouldn't have to bring back someone better than Devers. The players they would acquire would be under team control and making millions less than him for years. That's money to spread over the rest of the team. I think CB is trying to build a farm system that provides a steady flow of young (and therefore cheap) players and supplement that with smart extensions like the one he gave X and FAs who make nice fits. Papi was not body beautiful. They ain’t all Mo. But fine... no, those guys might shift around. But who replaces JDM? He is not that long for Boston. I get a bit tired of the “under control” argument. Of course money matters and that is a great thing. But it seems like it tends to come with a downgrade. You can’t have all $30 million players. But you have to have some. The skinflint teams aren’t exactly hoisting flags. All this trading out... again, some of it had to be done. But finances aside a second... they are worse for the Mookie trade and worse for letting JBJ go. Again... finances aside. Now... throw finances back in, you say, hey it got you flexibility. I love it. But if you then trade one (or both) or your two remaining homegrown stars — for cheaper players you acknowledge might not be as good... you start to have a lot of financial flexibility and not a lot of wins. When does that flexibility lead to *adding* talent?
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 22, 2021 22:12:03 GMT -5
I like the kid too. And just like you, I hope Cora can get in his ear, especially on conditioning. But he's a lousy fielder and his body and defense could easily go all Mo Vaughn as he gets older. You also want to sign X. to big money, right? Do you really foresee those two on the left side for years to come with their defensive limitations? Those limitations are probably going to get worse. Guys don't gain range as they age and Raffie is already pudgy. The stats that Red Sox Stats posted are eye-popping. A trade wouldn't have to bring back someone better than Devers. The players they would acquire would be under team control and making millions less than him for years. That's money to spread over the rest of the team. I think CB is trying to build a farm system that provides a steady flow of young (and therefore cheap) players and supplement that with smart extensions like the one he gave X and FAs who make nice fits. Papi was not body beautiful. They ain’t all Mo. But fine... no, those guys might shift around. But who replaces JDM? He is not that long for Boston. I get a bit tired of the “under control” argument. Of course money matters and that is a great thing. But it seems like it tends to come with a downgrade. You can’t have all $30 million players. But you have to have some. The skinflint teams aren’t exactly hoisting flags. All this trading out... again, some of it had to be done. But finances aside a second... they are worse for the Mookie trade and worse for letting JBJ go. Again... finances aside. Now... throw finances back in, you say, hey it got you flexibility. I love it. But if you then trade one (or both) or your two remaining homegrown stars — for cheaper players you acknowledge might not be as good... you start to have a lot of financial flexibility and not a lot of wins. When does that flexibility lead to *adding* talent? The Red Sox have two major core players that you'd want to extend. But you can't pretend there aren't major question marks. With X, if you extend him, you know that you're signing him to play 3b or LF, which is fine, but they're not as valuable as SS. With Devers, you have to be sure - whether he's a 3b/1b/dh, you have to know that he's going to have seasons that are more in line with 2019 than 2020. With Devers, he has a great hit tool, but his plate discipline has not improved. Playing devil's advocate here, say his body goes a bit and say his plate discipline doesn't improve much, then you might be paying $200 million for a guy hitting .275 with a .300 OBP and an OPS just a bit north of .800 who is basically a DH. Guys like that you don't want to extend. Is he going to be that guy or the guy that will over time learn to lay off pitches that he gets himself out on and let his hit tool punish whatever he forces pitchers to throw in the strike zone? If he does that, he's going to be an offensive monster for years to come, even if his defense forces him to DH. A guy with that kind of bat, yeah, you'd want to extend. I'm hopeful he's the latter, and I think he will be, but it's not 100% he will be, 0% he won't be. I think it's probably 70% - 80%, he goes on his path as an offensive monster, but you can't dismiss the possibility that it goes the other way, especially if his 2021 season is more like his 2020 season. I think Cora will get the best out of him. And I think that he and X will be viable defensively for the next year or two, but sooner or later there will defensive alignment decisions to be made and that has to factor into the decision making. My first hope is that X winds up a Red Sox for life. And then if Devers is the offensive basher we think he is, then yeah, even if he's a DH, if you have the confidence that he will rake for the next seven years or so, then yeah, try to extend him, too.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
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Post by TearsIn04 on Feb 22, 2021 22:17:04 GMT -5
I like the kid too. And just like you, I hope Cora can get in his ear, especially on conditioning. But he's a lousy fielder and his body and defense could easily go all Mo Vaughn as he gets older. You also want to sign X. to big money, right? Do you really foresee those two on the left side for years to come with their defensive limitations? Those limitations are probably going to get worse. Guys don't gain range as they age and Raffie is already pudgy. The stats that Red Sox Stats posted are eye-popping. A trade wouldn't have to bring back someone better than Devers. The players they would acquire would be under team control and making millions less than him for years. That's money to spread over the rest of the team. I think CB is trying to build a farm system that provides a steady flow of young (and therefore cheap) players and supplement that with smart extensions like the one he gave X and FAs who make nice fits. Papi was not body beautiful. They ain’t all Mo. But fine... no, those guys might shift around. But who replaces JDM? He is not that long for Boston. I get a bit tired of the “under control” argument. Of course money matters and that is a great thing. But it seems like it tends to come with a downgrade. You can’t have all $30 million players. But you have to have some. The skinflint teams aren’t exactly hoisting flags. All this trading out... again, some of it had to be done. But finances aside a second... they are worse for the Mookie trade and worse for letting JBJ go. Again... finances aside. Now... throw finances back in, you say, hey it got you flexibility. I love it. But if you then trade one (or both) or your two remaining homegrown stars — for cheaper players you acknowledge might not be as good... you start to have a lot of financial flexibility and not a lot of wins. When does that flexibility lead to *adding* talent? A few things: 1. As I recall it, Papi began taking more interest in his conditioning during his 30s after learning his family had a history of diabetes. I remember a hilarious quote, something like: "I'm trying to stay away from the spoon." I regarded him as a big man, but not a fat man, in his later years. He also didn't play the field, so mobility was less of an issue. 2. I think I'm probably where you are in lamenting that the RS developed this great core of young players that won the WS in 2018, but have had such limited success in locking them up to reasonable long-term contracts during their arb years. I don't think it's all their fault. Last off-season may have been the one to lock up E-Rod but he got Covid; Beni's performance fizzled and they decided it was in their interest to move on and get multiple pieces; Mookie made it clear he was going to FA unless they gave him prohibitive dollars. 3. That they are worse off for the Mookie trade is your opinion, but it might be best to see how it works out in the long-term. I like the return. (Let's drop this one before the mods slap us .) 4. I think the RS have been comfortable all along letting JBJ get to FA rather than haggling with Boras for an extension. No doubt, the ask would have been ridiculous. I like him and appreciate his contributions but let's be realistic. He's been 3 WAR/150 games and a disproportionate amount of that was tied up in his 2016 season. It's not a huge loss.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Feb 22, 2021 22:26:45 GMT -5
Seriously though, I wasn't making a point about Bogaerts when I asked. Do you actually have a reason for this or are you just here to start arguments and annoy people? Because it really is coming off like the latter. Per DRS, Story is a much better defender than Bogaerts. Nobody is denying this. Nobody is using errors - posters are citing other advanced defensive metrics and trying to engage in a conversation about this, and your response is basically just "nope, you're wrong, DRS." If you're going to just be a smart-ass and play move the goalposts in response to genuine questions rather than actually participate in the discourse, that's going to be an issue. I have barely even posted outside of this thread in the past week. I just take it as people attacking my posts when you know, OPS+ and wRC+ are trump offensive stats, for example. DRS should be used as such, along with outs above average (which I got a limited understanding of, I admit). I don't have a reason for thinking this way other than every major publication- ESPN, MLB Network, even national broadcasts use this as this first go to defensive metric they use (DRS). So it's got to be the best one or not everyone one would use it. It's everywhere. So in other words, you've been pounding the table about DRS... because you saw it used somewhere. A word of advice - read what people say when engaging with you and don't assume they're trying to cut you down. Defensive statistics are still the wild west. There's no reason to pick a single stat to rely on. See what the panoply of statistics says and use the full spectrum of data available
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Post by incandenza on Feb 22, 2021 22:28:21 GMT -5
I'm surprised at how much fatalism I'm seeing about Devers, a guy who is a year and a half younger than Bobby Dalbec, and who had accumulated more WAR through age 23 than Mookie Betts.
We're really presuming he can't make defensive improvements and learn to manage the strike zone better past his 24th birthday?
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Post by electricityverdugo99 on Feb 22, 2021 22:32:45 GMT -5
Will do, but somewhere refers to one place. Versus everywhere. If one point of (important) data is so egregious, then I think that point should be worth hammering, but I guess not here.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 22, 2021 23:09:38 GMT -5
I'm surprised at how much fatalism I'm seeing about Devers, a guy who is a year and a half younger than Bobby Dalbec, and who had accumulated more WAR through age 23 than Mookie Betts.
We're really presuming he can't make defensive improvements and learn to manage the strike zone better past his 24th birthday? Nobody is presuming anything. All I'm doing is raising the question because it's a fair question to ask before committing huge sums of money to a player. Nowhere in my post did I say that they shouldn't extend him. I'm saying they have to evaluate what they think he is going forward, which isn't exactly earth shattering stuff. It's not like there's zero flaws in Devers' offensive game if we're being completely honest. That said, nobody says that it's ridiculous to expect that he can improve on some of the things that could hold him back. Let's face it, this kid could be a 40 plus HR, .320 type hitter with that hit tool of his, but he'll need to hone his strike zone judgment to make that happen. You can say he came damn close to that already in 2019 with so-so plate discipline, but I think as the league adjusts to him, he must do the same, and if he does and he forces those pitchers into the strike zone, then I pity those pitchers having to face him. As a fan, we'd like to keep most of our favorite players, but management needs to be more clinical about it than we do.
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Post by manfred on Feb 22, 2021 23:11:11 GMT -5
Papi was not body beautiful. They ain’t all Mo. But fine... no, those guys might shift around. But who replaces JDM? He is not that long for Boston. I get a bit tired of the “under control” argument. Of course money matters and that is a great thing. But it seems like it tends to come with a downgrade. You can’t have all $30 million players. But you have to have some. The skinflint teams aren’t exactly hoisting flags. All this trading out... again, some of it had to be done. But finances aside a second... they are worse for the Mookie trade and worse for letting JBJ go. Again... finances aside. Now... throw finances back in, you say, hey it got you flexibility. I love it. But if you then trade one (or both) or your two remaining homegrown stars — for cheaper players you acknowledge might not be as good... you start to have a lot of financial flexibility and not a lot of wins. When does that flexibility lead to *adding* talent? A few things: 1. As I recall it, Papi began taking more interest in his conditioning during his 30s after learning his family had a history of diabetes. I remember a hilarious quote, something like: "I'm trying to stay away from the spoon." I regarded him as a big man, but not a fat man, in his later years. He also didn't play the field, so mobility was less of an issue. 2. I think I'm probably where you are in lamenting that the RS developed this great core of young players that won the WS in 2018, but have had such limited success in locking them up to reasonable long-term contracts during their arb years. I don't think it's all their fault. Last off-season may have been the one to lock up E-Rod but he got Covid; Beni's performance fizzled and they decided it was in their interest to move on and get multiple pieces; Mookie made it clear he was going to FA unless they gave him prohibitive dollars. 3. That they are worse off for the Mookie trade is your opinion, but it might be best to see how it works out in the long-term. I like the return. (Let's drop this one before the mods slap us .) 4. I think the RS have been comfortable all along letting JBJ get to FA rather than haggling with Boras for an extension. No doubt, the ask would have been ridiculous. I like him and appreciate his contributions but let's be realistic. He's been 3 WAR/150 games and a disproportionate amount of that was tied up in his 2016 season. It's not a huge loss. Let’s assume Betts was gone. Ok. I don’t think Beni was ever good enough to rush an extension. Fair. ERod is tricky... with Eovaldi and Sale already making them a little remorseful, I get not adding a 3rd expensive pitcher without certainty. Dombrowski, lest we forget, got a great extension for CVaz. But that means the pair of X and Devers have always been the two. Cheaper than Betts, far more certain than CVaz, Beni, ERod. I just look at it this way. Drop X and Devers from this team in 2023, and what is left? You are starting from virtual scratch. Verdugo, who is good but not likely an MVP caliber player, is by far the best player. Then... a bunch of minor leaguers we hope pay off but don’t have the collective ceilings to be the next champion core. So... you let these guys go and still have to spend huge on at least two guys.
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Post by manfred on Feb 22, 2021 23:15:27 GMT -5
I'm surprised at how much fatalism I'm seeing about Devers, a guy who is a year and a half younger than Bobby Dalbec, and who had accumulated more WAR through age 23 than Mookie Betts.
We're really presuming he can't make defensive improvements and learn to manage the strike zone better past his 24th birthday? Nobody is presuming anything. All I'm doing is raising the question because it's a fair question to ask before committing huge sums of money to a player. Nowhere in my post did I say that they shouldn't extend him. I'm saying they have to evaluate what they think he is going forward, which isn't exactly earth shattering stuff. It's not like there's zero flaws in Devers' offensive game if we're being completely honest. That said, nobody says that it's ridiculous to expect that he can improve on some of the things that could hold him back. Let's face it, this kid could be a 40 plus HR, .320 type hitter with that hit tool of his, but he'll need to hone his strike zone judgment to make that happen. You can say he came damn close to that already in 2019 with so-so plate discipline, but I think as the league adjusts to him, he must do the same, and if he does and he forces those pitchers into the strike zone, then I pity those pitchers having to face him. As a fan, we'd like to keep most of our favorite players, but management needs to be more clinical about it than we do. Could he? He almost *was* at age 22. It is funny. I am the board pessimist, and yet looking at Devers, I see a guy who had a rough go in a crap season at age 24 but has also an absolute monster upside. I look at X and see a guy who could yet gave his best offense in him. But people are looking at flaws... some real, some very fixable. If these guys have the huge holes in their fames people say... I wanna revise my projection. They are screwed without them.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 22, 2021 23:27:58 GMT -5
Nobody is presuming anything. All I'm doing is raising the question because it's a fair question to ask before committing huge sums of money to a player. Nowhere in my post did I say that they shouldn't extend him. I'm saying they have to evaluate what they think he is going forward, which isn't exactly earth shattering stuff. It's not like there's zero flaws in Devers' offensive game if we're being completely honest. That said, nobody says that it's ridiculous to expect that he can improve on some of the things that could hold him back. Let's face it, this kid could be a 40 plus HR, .320 type hitter with that hit tool of his, but he'll need to hone his strike zone judgment to make that happen. You can say he came damn close to that already in 2019 with so-so plate discipline, but I think as the league adjusts to him, he must do the same, and if he does and he forces those pitchers into the strike zone, then I pity those pitchers having to face him. As a fan, we'd like to keep most of our favorite players, but management needs to be more clinical about it than we do. Could he? He almost *was* at age 22. It is funny. I am the board pessimist, and yet looking at Devers, I see a guy who had a rough go in a crap season at age 24 but has also an absolute monster upside. I look at X and see a guy who could yet gave his best offense in him. But people are looking at flaws... some real, some very fixable. If these guys have the huge holes in their fames people say... I wanna revise my projection. They are screwed without them. Relax Manfred. I see him probably pretty similar to you. I think he needs somebody like Cora to be in his ear and I think he will be. I think he was kind of lost last year without Cora. I haven't seen him yet this year but I bet he comes into camp in much better shape. I'm sure Cora was already in communication with him. I know this sounds silly, but really. Once upon a time Pablo Sandoval hit very well in a tough ballpark in SF as a youngster. He didn't improve as he aged and he was an old 28 by time he got to the Red Sox, but if you saw Sandoval circa 2010 or whenever the heck it was, you'd have wanted to lock him up as well if you didn't look at how his body looked or didn't pay attention to how he trained. That would be the worst case scenario for Devers. I don't see it going that way to be frank and I'm being extreme here. I don't want to be optimistic or pessimistic. I want to go with what I think are reasonable odds, and I think reasonable odds are in favor of Devers being that offensive monster I'm referring to, one that even if he can't continue to be a great 3b, is such a great hitter, that he's worth being paid big $ as a DH. And even that might not come to pass. He has the elements in his game to actually be a good defensive 3b. For awhile he was in 2019. Then he regressed last year as he came into camp out of shape, but I think with Cora in his ear, he has it in him to settle down and become an effective 3b defensively and it might be X's need to change positions down the road that might force the issue with Devers defensively. I do think X can be a really strong defensive 3b if it came down to it. The Sox don't have the SS right now in their system, but if they don't draft that SS this year, how would you like to bet that Bloom finds a SS of the near future through a trade just like he might have found the catcher of the future in an unexpected deal?
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Post by manfred on Feb 22, 2021 23:36:35 GMT -5
Could he? He almost *was* at age 22. It is funny. I am the board pessimist, and yet looking at Devers, I see a guy who had a rough go in a crap season at age 24 but has also an absolute monster upside. I look at X and see a guy who could yet gave his best offense in him. But people are looking at flaws... some real, some very fixable. If these guys have the huge holes in their fames people say... I wanna revise my projection. They are screwed without them. Relax Manfred. I see him probably pretty similar to you. I think he needs somebody like Cora to be in his ear and I think he will be. I think he was kind of lost last year without Cora. I haven't seen him yet this year but I bet he comes into camp in much better shape. I'm sure Cora was already in communication with him. I know this sounds silly, but really. Once upon a time Pablo Sandoval hit very well in a tough ballpark in SF as a youngster. He didn't improve as he aged and he was an old 28 by time he got to the Red Sox, but if you saw Sandoval circa 2010 or whenever the heck it was, you'd have wanted to lock him up as well if you didn't look at how his body looked or didn't pay attention to how he trained. That would be the worst case scenario for Devers. I don't see it going that way to be frank and I'm being extreme here. I don't want to be optimistic or pessimistic. I want to go with what I think are reasonable odds, and I think reasonable odds are in favor of Devers being that offensive monster I'm referring to, one that even if he can't continue to be a great 3b, is such a great hitter, that he's worth being paid big $ as a DH. And even that might not come to pass. He has the elements in his game to actually be a good defensive 3b. For awhile he was in 2019. Then he regressed last year as he came into camp out of shape, but I think with Cora in his ear, he has it in him to settle down and become an effective 3b defensively and it might be X's need to change positions down the road that might force the issue with Devers defensively. I do think X can be a really strong defensive 3b if it came down to it. The Sox don't have the SS right now in their system, but if they don't draft that SS this year, how would you like to bet that Bloom finds a SS of the near future through a trade just like he might have found the catcher of the future in an unexpected deal? I am willing to bet $200 to the Jimmy Fund he did not find the catcher of the future in the Rays trade.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 22, 2021 23:54:30 GMT -5
Relax Manfred. I see him probably pretty similar to you. I think he needs somebody like Cora to be in his ear and I think he will be. I think he was kind of lost last year without Cora. I haven't seen him yet this year but I bet he comes into camp in much better shape. I'm sure Cora was already in communication with him. I know this sounds silly, but really. Once upon a time Pablo Sandoval hit very well in a tough ballpark in SF as a youngster. He didn't improve as he aged and he was an old 28 by time he got to the Red Sox, but if you saw Sandoval circa 2010 or whenever the heck it was, you'd have wanted to lock him up as well if you didn't look at how his body looked or didn't pay attention to how he trained. That would be the worst case scenario for Devers. I don't see it going that way to be frank and I'm being extreme here. I don't want to be optimistic or pessimistic. I want to go with what I think are reasonable odds, and I think reasonable odds are in favor of Devers being that offensive monster I'm referring to, one that even if he can't continue to be a great 3b, is such a great hitter, that he's worth being paid big $ as a DH. And even that might not come to pass. He has the elements in his game to actually be a good defensive 3b. For awhile he was in 2019. Then he regressed last year as he came into camp out of shape, but I think with Cora in his ear, he has it in him to settle down and become an effective 3b defensively and it might be X's need to change positions down the road that might force the issue with Devers defensively. I do think X can be a really strong defensive 3b if it came down to it. The Sox don't have the SS right now in their system, but if they don't draft that SS this year, how would you like to bet that Bloom finds a SS of the near future through a trade just like he might have found the catcher of the future in an unexpected deal? I am willing to bet $200 to the Jimmy Fund he did not find the catcher of the future in the Rays trade. Maybe he did and maybe he didn't. You act like there's little chance that Hernandez pans out. You could ultimately be right, or he might just be the catcher of the future you didn't want. One that hits .250 with power, questionable skills behind the plate and a rocket arm. Right now he's the Sox' best shot at a successor for Vazquez. Doesn't mean he will be, but there's definitely better than a non-zero chance. The $200 bet means nothing to me. If you have $200 to burn then sending it to the Jimmy Fund is a great idea regardless if you're right or not.
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Post by manfred on Feb 22, 2021 23:56:55 GMT -5
I am willing to bet $200 to the Jimmy Fund he did not find the catcher of the future in the Rays trade. Maybe he did and maybe he didn't. You act like there's little chance that Hernandez pans out. You could ultimately be right, or he might just be the catcher of the future you didn't want. One that hits .250 with power, questionable skills behind the plate and a rocket arm. Right now he's the Sox' best shot at a successor for Vazquez. Doesn't mean he will be, but there's definitely better than a non-zero chance. The $200 bet means nothing to me. If you have $200 to burn then sending it to the Jimmy Fund is a great idea regardless if you're right or not. Dude is 6’1” 230 and moves badly. And we are worried about Devers?
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 23, 2021 0:22:55 GMT -5
Maybe he did and maybe he didn't. You act like there's little chance that Hernandez pans out. You could ultimately be right, or he might just be the catcher of the future you didn't want. One that hits .250 with power, questionable skills behind the plate and a rocket arm. Right now he's the Sox' best shot at a successor for Vazquez. Doesn't mean he will be, but there's definitely better than a non-zero chance. The $200 bet means nothing to me. If you have $200 to burn then sending it to the Jimmy Fund is a great idea regardless if you're right or not. Dude is 6’1” 230 and moves badly. And we are worried about Devers? Not looking to sign Ronaldo Hernandez to a 8 year $200 million contract or whatever the heck it would take to sign Devers. Apples and oranges. Would be thrilled if Hernandez was serviceable as a regular catcher and that's all. Again, not really worried about Devers too much, but felt the need to acknowledge all possibilities with Devers, because of the money commitment, even scenarios that are less likely to occur, as opposed to pretending they don't exist at all.
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Post by jdb on Apr 17, 2021 7:49:26 GMT -5
Curious those opinions who have seen most every game if the defensive on the left side has improved with the extra emphasis in spring training? Seems I’ve seen some great Devers highlights.
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Post by unitspin on Apr 17, 2021 10:19:12 GMT -5
Maybe he did and maybe he didn't. You act like there's little chance that Hernandez pans out. You could ultimately be right, or he might just be the catcher of the future you didn't want. One that hits .250 with power, questionable skills behind the plate and a rocket arm. Right now he's the Sox' best shot at a successor for Vazquez. Doesn't mean he will be, but there's definitely better than a non-zero chance. The $200 bet means nothing to me. If you have $200 to burn then sending it to the Jimmy Fund is a great idea regardless if you're right or not. Dude is 6’1” 230 and moves badly. And we are worried about Devers? Not too long ago ppl were burying francisco mejia as a bust and a nothing throw in for TB in the snell trade. Now the kid looks like he could be a really good piece for them moving forward. So id say judging too quickly on catchers is prob not a good approach. That's a mistake I wont make again, vaz was always a guy I saw as nothing more then a backup and here we are. He looks like one of the better catchers in the AL.
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mobaz
Veteran
Posts: 2,783
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Post by mobaz on Apr 17, 2021 10:25:05 GMT -5
I have been pretty down on the IF defense, but honestly both Xander and Devers have been "pretty good". Devers has had some stunning plays, and after the first series hasn't given too many back. Hope they can keep it up!
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Post by manfred on Apr 17, 2021 10:27:54 GMT -5
Dude is 6’1” 230 and moves badly. And we are worried about Devers? Not too long ago ppl were burying francisco mejia as a bust and a nothing throw in for TB in the snell trade. Now the kid looks like he could be a really good piece for them moving forward. So id say judging too quickly on catchers is prob not a good approach. That's a mistake I wont make again, vaz was always a guy I saw as nothing more then a backup and here we are. He looks like one of the better catchers in the AL. True. I’ll give you another reason I don’t think CVaz’s replacement is in the org: I don’t see him going anywhere for the next 5 years, minimum. That puts Hernandez at 28. Wong at 29. etc. etc. Someone could, I suppose, spend long years as a backup and transition, but I bet if those guys are starter-level, it’ll be elsewhere via trade or some other roster movement.
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Post by rjp313jr on Apr 17, 2021 10:41:41 GMT -5
Not too long ago ppl were burying francisco mejia as a bust and a nothing throw in for TB in the snell trade. Now the kid looks like he could be a really good piece for them moving forward. So id say judging too quickly on catchers is prob not a good approach. That's a mistake I wont make again, vaz was always a guy I saw as nothing more then a backup and here we are. He looks like one of the better catchers in the AL. True. I’ll give you another reason I don’t think CVaz’s replacement is in the org: I don’t see him going anywhere for the next 5 years, minimum. That puts Hernandez at 28. Wong at 29. etc. etc. Someone could, I suppose, spend long years as a backup and transition, but I bet if those guys are starter-level, it’ll be elsewhere via trade or some other roster movement. Those guys will start as backups and back up catchers get a good amount of playing time and even more will be available as Vasquez ages. If one of them is showing to be starter level then they’ll be moving on from mid 30s Vasquez.
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