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Tampa and Bloom's IFA strategy
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Post by unitspin on Oct 13, 2020 16:57:21 GMT -5
Joe said Hill and House probably have the highest ceilings. The thing about Kumar is he really is a product of having an excellent freshman season at Vanderbilt and then everyone’s season getting cancelled. What I mean is not only do I not think he is a lock for 1 but he could definitely fall to us minus any injury. He throws mid to high 90s for about 2 to 3 innings then it’s 91, 92 from the 4th on. The plus plus slider also starts to bite less. He has no history of a legit third pitch and he goes deep into counts. Just saying the guy could passed up by another college arm (Hill), the best college hitter, and the best prep shortstop, and there you go. Just think it’s all wide open. Ya these guys most likely will all be top ten. But from now too the draft anyone could go at any spot except for kumar i think hes a lock at one. I know bloom will get the best guy for us in the draft as part of the group in Tampa they have landed some serious talent through the years. It will be interesting to see how he handles the international free agents though being down in Tampa they never seemed to land the high end talent. He will have plenty of opportunities with boston to get whoever he is high on. |
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Post by vermontsox1 on Oct 13, 2020 17:59:41 GMT -5
Joe said Hill and House probably have the highest ceilings. The thing about Kumar is he really is a product of having an excellent freshman season at Vanderbilt and then everyone’s season getting cancelled. What I mean is not only do I not think he is a lock for 1 but he could definitely fall to us minus any injury. He throws mid to high 90s for about 2 to 3 innings then it’s 91, 92 from the 4th on. The plus plus slider also starts to bite less. He has no history of a legit third pitch and he goes deep into counts. Just saying the guy could passed up by another college arm (Hill), the best college hitter, and the best prep shortstop, and there you go. Just think it’s all wide open. Ya these guys most likely will all be top ten. But from now too the draft anyone could go at any spot except for kumar i think hes a lock at one. I know bloom will get the best guy for us in the draft as part of the group in Tampa they have landed some serious talent through the years. It will be interesting to see how he handles the international free agents though being down in Tampa they never seemed to land the high end talent. He will have plenty of opportunities with boston to get whoever he is high on. Wander Franco (and many others) beg to differ. |
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Post by unitspin on Oct 13, 2020 18:45:31 GMT -5
Ya these guys most likely will all be top ten. But from now too the draft anyone could go at any spot except for kumar i think hes a lock at one. I know bloom will get the best guy for us in the draft as part of the group in Tampa they have landed some serious talent through the years. It will be interesting to see how he handles the international free agents though being down in Tampa they never seemed to land the high end talent. He will have plenty of opportunities with boston to get whoever he is high on. Wander Franco (and many others) beg to differ. That's one guy, that hasn't played in the bigs yet. Name some big league talent. |
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 13, 2020 20:55:34 GMT -5
Wander Franco (and many others) beg to differ. That's one guy, that hasn't played in the bigs yet. Name some big league talent. Two of their top three players were IFAs in Franco and Brujan. Also, it's not like the GM goes down to the Caribbean and personally scouts these guys. A GM/PBO/whatever might go work out a guy they're going to give an enormous bonus to, but the IFA stuff is still being run by the same people (although I feel like Eddie Romero is due for a promotion the Red Sox may not have room to give him with BOH as the GM - we'll see how long he sticks around). Bloom's job is to set up the processes that get the IFAs and the draftees and such. I sincerely doubt he's going to mess much with the Red Sox current international scouting apparatus. |
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Post by dyoungteach on Oct 14, 2020 2:18:31 GMT -5
Joe said Hill and House probably have the highest ceilings. The thing about Kumar is he really is a product of having an excellent freshman season at Vanderbilt and then everyone’s season getting cancelled. What I mean is not only do I not think he is a lock for 1 but he could definitely fall to us minus any injury. He throws mid to high 90s for about 2 to 3 innings then it’s 91, 92 from the 4th on. The plus plus slider also starts to bite less. He has no history of a legit third pitch and he goes deep into counts. Just saying the guy could passed up by another college arm (Hill), the best college hitter, and the best prep shortstop, and there you go. Just think it’s all wide open. Ya these guys most likely will all be top ten. But from now too the draft anyone could go at any spot except for kumar i think hes a lock at one. I know bloom will get the best guy for us in the draft as part of the group in Tampa they have landed some serious talent through the years. It will be interesting to see how he handles the international free agents though being down in Tampa they never seemed to land the high end talent. He will have plenty of opportunities with boston to get whoever he is high on. Ummm ever hear of wander Franco? Ild say he hit on a huge international fish there. Tampa bay actually has done tremendous work in international signings. Jesus Sanchez was another large signing. One could argue Tampa had a bigger presence than the Red Sox have had over the past 4 years and that’s taking nothing from Boston |
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Post by unitspin on Oct 14, 2020 8:35:21 GMT -5
That's one guy, that hasn't played in the bigs yet. Name some big league talent. Two of their top three players were IFAs in Franco and Brujan. Also, it's not like the GM goes down to the Caribbean and personally scouts these guys. A GM/PBO/whatever might go work out a guy they're going to give an enormous bonus to, but the IFA stuff is still being run by the same people (although I feel like Eddie Romero is due for a promotion the Red Sox may not have room to give him with BOH as the GM - we'll see how long he sticks around). Bloom's job is to set up the processes that get the IFAs and the draftees and such. I sincerely doubt he's going to mess much with the Red Sox current international scouting apparatus. Who in Tampas lineup is from their international signings? Two minor leaguers in the last 10 years that does not show me much. How many mlb starters have they signed in the last 10 years almost none. So as I said before they never got the high end talent while he was in Tampa. |
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Post by unitspin on Oct 14, 2020 8:37:25 GMT -5
Ya these guys most likely will all be top ten. But from now too the draft anyone could go at any spot except for kumar i think hes a lock at one. I know bloom will get the best guy for us in the draft as part of the group in Tampa they have landed some serious talent through the years. It will be interesting to see how he handles the international free agents though being down in Tampa they never seemed to land the high end talent. He will have plenty of opportunities with boston to get whoever he is high on. Ummm ever hear of wander Franco? Ild say he hit on a huge international fish there. Tampa bay actually has done tremendous work in international signings. Jesus Sanchez was another large signing. One could argue Tampa had a bigger presence than the Red Sox have had over the past 4 years and that’s taking nothing from Boston 4 years that conveniently leaves out moncada, devers and xander. All better then any player Tampa has signed in the intll market.b |
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 14, 2020 10:03:33 GMT -5
Two of their top three players were IFAs in Franco and Brujan. Also, it's not like the GM goes down to the Caribbean and personally scouts these guys. A GM/PBO/whatever might go work out a guy they're going to give an enormous bonus to, but the IFA stuff is still being run by the same people (although I feel like Eddie Romero is due for a promotion the Red Sox may not have room to give him with BOH as the GM - we'll see how long he sticks around). Bloom's job is to set up the processes that get the IFAs and the draftees and such. I sincerely doubt he's going to mess much with the Red Sox current international scouting apparatus. Who in Tampas lineup is from their international signings? Two minor leaguers in the last 10 years that does not show me much. How many mlb starters have they signed in the last 10 years almost none. So as I said before they never got the high end talent while he was in Tampa. They signed Jesus Sanchez who they traded to Miami for Nick Anderson and Trevor Richards. They signed German Marquez who they traded to Colorado with Jake McGee for Corey Dickerson. They signed Diego Castillo, Jose Alvarado, and Yonny Chirinos (who's injured), who are key pieces of their current pitching staff. They signed Wander Franco who is by far the top prospect in baseball. They signed Vidal Brujan who is a top 50 or so prospect in baseball. They signed Ronaldo Hernandez, who was a top 100 prospect before the 2019 season and had a down year, so he fell out. There's also the issue of what time period you're even talking about. Is it from the time that Friedman left in 2014, when Bloom was promoted to VPBOps? If so, how many international prospects do you expect to have graduated who they signed after that point? Is it from 2011 when Bloom was named Director of BOps? What is the time period we're talking about, and what is the outcome you'd have expected instead? |
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 14, 2020 10:06:12 GMT -5
Ummm ever hear of wander Franco? Ild say he hit on a huge international fish there. Tampa bay actually has done tremendous work in international signings. Jesus Sanchez was another large signing. One could argue Tampa had a bigger presence than the Red Sox have had over the past 4 years and that’s taking nothing from Boston 4 years that conveniently leaves out moncada, devers and xander. All better then any player Tampa has signed in the intll market.b Bogaerts was signed in 2009 and Moncada was signed for $63 million, which at that point would've made him too pricey for Tampa. Not fair to use either in the discussion you're trying to have. |
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Post by unitspin on Oct 14, 2020 12:56:32 GMT -5
"made him too pricey for Tampa".
That was my statement with boston he will be able to spend as much and on who ever he chooses.
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Post by tyler3 on Oct 14, 2020 13:29:31 GMT -5
Well to be fair international rules don’t work that way for players of a certain age, but whatever. Vermont Sox will use his hammer of judgment here soon I suspect. Be wary:)
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Post by tyler3 on Oct 14, 2020 13:30:04 GMT -5
Anymore since the changes
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Oct 14, 2020 13:47:41 GMT -5
Who in Tampas lineup is from their international signings? Two minor leaguers in the last 10 years that does not show me much. How many mlb starters have they signed in the last 10 years almost none. So as I said before they never got the high end talent while he was in Tampa. They signed Jesus Sanchez who they traded to Miami for Nick Anderson and Trevor Richards. They signed German Marquez who they traded to Colorado with Jake McGee for Corey Dickerson. They signed Diego Castillo, Jose Alvarado, and Yonny Chirinos (who's injured), who are key pieces of their current pitching staff. They signed Wander Franco who is by far the top prospect in baseball. They signed Vidal Brujan who is a top 50 or so prospect in baseball. They signed Ronaldo Hernandez, who was a top 100 prospect before the 2019 season and had a down year, so he fell out. There's also the issue of what time period you're even talking about. Is it from the time that Friedman left in 2014, when Bloom was promoted to VPBOps? If so, how many international prospects do you expect to have graduated who they signed after that point? Is it from 2011 when Bloom was named Director of BOps? What is the time period we're talking about, and what is the outcome you'd have expected instead? If you wanted to get technical you could count Yoshi Tsutsugo too, yeah? |
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Post by ramireja on Oct 14, 2020 15:27:57 GMT -5
"made him too pricey for Tampa". That was my statement with boston he will be able to spend as much and on who ever he chooses. As others are suggesting, the international bonus caps no longer make the Moncada situation possible. If your point is that BOS typically lands the bigger name (higher $) international free agents in the era comparable to Bloom's tenure, thats just objectively not true and especially over the past 5 years or so. A comparison of Tampa and Boston's top international bonuses in the past 5 years, and I'm including 2020 as those bonuses were most likely agreed upon or perculating during Dombrowski's tenure: 2020: TAM - Carlos Colmenares at $3.2M (rumored, ranked #3 by MLB), BOS - Miguel Bleis at $1.5M (rumored, ranked #19 by MLB) 2019: TAM - Jhon Diaz at $1.5M (ranked #18 by MLB), BOS - Juan Chacon at $0.9M (unranked by MLB) 2018: TAM - Sandy Gaston at $2.6M (ranked #18 by MLB) and Alejandro Pie at $1.4M (ranked #26 by MLB), BOS - Eduardo Lopez at $1.15M (ranked #27 by MLB) 2017: TAM - Wander Franco at $3.8M (ranked #2 by MLB) and Jeffrey Marte at $0.8M but originally signed by Twins for $3.0M and voided (ranked #4) , BOS - Daniel Flores at $3.1M (can't find originally ranking but believe he was top 5) So basically, since we came out of the penalties and since the caps have been instituted, BOS has taken more of a 'spread the $ around mid-range and not top-ranked options' whereas TAM has been somewhere more in the middle but acting aggressively when they have access to a top 5 type talent. I really don't see your point. If BOS suddenly changes their approach in future years to target top 5 talents (with bonuses in the $2M-$4M), I'd attribute that more to Bloom's philosophy than to anything having to do with Boston's approach. |
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Post by dyoungteach on Oct 14, 2020 17:09:11 GMT -5
Tampa has far and away LATELY targeted the players they want on international level and succeeded. Much more than Boston and Boston seems to have a quality system. Regardless, here’s hoping with bloom and the international hire he made from Mets ( name escapes me) that Boston can both target and get the right international high end guys. We all want more devers with some boogarts spread in . I suspect bloom will focus on international guys as much as he does the draft. So far I’ve been very impressed. Taking a step back I felt our past general manager focused much much more on the mlb roster. He did it in Detroit and he did it in Boston. By time he left both those minor league systems were one of the bottom systems in all of baseball. ( don’t care reasons... they were at the bottom). Bloom won’t allow that to happen. Now can he win the World Series with that philosophy? We shall see
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 14,029 
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Post by cdj on Oct 14, 2020 18:55:54 GMT -5
Still hurts the soul to see the name “Daniel Flores”. I hope the family is doing ok these days
If there’s one thing I have had zero problems with it’s the Red Sox international scouting. They’ve been TOO innovative sometimes lol
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Post by pedroelgrande on Oct 14, 2020 20:27:56 GMT -5
I highly doubt Bloom had much to do with Tampa’s International scouting just like he is not likely to have too much hands on approach on the Red Sox International scouting.
Obviously he is the figure head now so he can set the tone and be like let’s say tell the guys be more “aggressive” or whatever but we know he is not gonna be like sign this guy or that guy we know that’s not how front offices work.
I think GMs get too much blame or too much praise for these kind of things.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Oct 14, 2020 20:29:34 GMT -5
I highly doubt Bloom had much to do with Tampa’s International scouting just like he is not likely to have too much hands on approach on the Red Sox International scouting. Obviously he is the figure head now he can set the tone a be like let’s say tell the guys be more “aggressive” or whatever but we know he is not gonna be like sign this guy or that guy we know that’s not how front offices work. I think GMs get too much blame or too much praise these kind of things. Agreed, we should be comparing Romeros not Blooms. We should also adjust the results by the Competitive balance bonus IFA money. |
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 14, 2020 20:38:25 GMT -5
Didn't mention Tsutsugo because he signed after Bloom was with the Red Sox.
I didn't make the point about Moncada's contract not being a thing anymore because it was under the rules at the time, and therefore fair game as far as the discussion of whether the Rays "never seemed to land the high-end talent."
Bloom actually did touch the Rays' international amateur department. Per the Red Sox media guide, as VP of Baseball Ops, International Scouting was one of the departments he oversaw, and I think that was from 2014 to 2019. Wikipedia says he also oversaw that department from 2011-2014 as Director of Baseball Operations as well, citing his old bio on the Rays' website, although the media guide does not, so who knows.
And I made the argument above that he's not going to have much to do with that process now, so to get back to my primary point, beyond being at least a little bit informative, I'm not sure this discussion is really relevant to the Red Sox on a going forward basis, at least while Eddie Romero is still around.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 14, 2020 20:41:52 GMT -5
"made him too pricey for Tampa". That was my statement with boston he will be able to spend as much and on who ever he chooses. No, this was your statement: "It will be interesting to see how he handles the international free agents though being down in Tampa they never seemed to land the high end talent." Maybe you weren't making your point clearly, but none of your responses refer to that either. |
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Oct 14, 2020 21:27:20 GMT -5
Didn't mention Tsutsugo because he signed after Bloom was with the Red Sox. I didn't make the point about Moncada's contract not being a thing anymore because it was under the rules at the time, and therefore fair game as far as the discussion of whether the Rays "never seemed to land the high-end talent." Bloom actually did touch the Rays' international amateur department. Per the Red Sox media guide, as VP of Baseball Ops, International Scouting was one of the departments he oversaw, and I think that was from 2014 to 2019. Wikipedia says he also oversaw that department from 2011-2014 as Director of Baseball Operations as well, citing his old bio on the Rays' website, although the media guide does not, so who knows. And I made the argument above that he's not going to have much to do with that process now, so to get back to my primary point, beyond being at least a little bit informative, I'm not sure this discussion is really relevant to the Red Sox on a going forward basis, at least while Eddie Romero is still around. Fair point on Tsutsugo, wasn't thinking too hard on that one. |
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