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Post by patford on Oct 24, 2020 15:25:33 GMT -5
Likely because the Internet is good a figuring out what people look at on the Internet I'm seeing lots of stories saying Betts is the second coming of Babe Ruth, the Sox made a huge mistake and Sox fans should feel depressed. My assumption is there are a lot of these stories and I'd be seeing quite a few of them even if I was a Seattle Mariners fan. My guess is a lot of these stories are coming from sad Yankees fans whose team (the Yankees) failed again. The fact is I've never seen Mookie look so happy and excited. It sure seems to me like he wanted out of Boston and so I believe the Sox did exactly the right thing in trading him and the return they got was better than could have been hoped for. The Sox also got out from under what would have been a terrible (IMO) contract, although as Betts wasn't going to sign with Boston that isn't really a factor. People also forget or discount that while Betts was in Boston the team had some really bad seasons and that during the one season where they reached and won the World Series Betts hit poorly in the playoffs and World Series. So, Mookie is a great player. He's also a great person. He's just one guy though and the Sox are better off without him than they would be carrying that albatross of a contract.
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Oct 24, 2020 15:30:34 GMT -5
Likely because the Internet is good a figuring out what people look at on the Internet I'm seeing lots of stories saying Betts is the second coming of Babe Ruth, the Sox made a huge mistake and Sox fans should feel depressed. My assumption is there are a lot of these stories and I'd be seeing quite a few of them even if I was a Seattle Mariners fan. My guess is a lot of these stories are coming from sad Yankees fans whose team (the Yankees) failed again. The fact is I've never seen Mookie look so happy and excited. It sure seems to me like he wanted out of Boston and so I believe the Sox did exactly the right thing in trading him and the return they got was better than could have been hoped for. The Sox also got out from under what would have been a terrible (IMO) contract, although as Betts wasn't going to sign with Boston that isn't really a factor. People also forget or discount that while Betts was in Boston the team had some really bad seasons and that during the one season where they reached and won the World Series Betts hit poorly in the playoffs and World Series. So, Mookie is a great player. He's also a great person. He's just one guy though and the Sox are better off without him than they would be carrying that albatross of a contract. I’ve seen him just as happy and excited dancing in the outfield with JBJ and Beni after wins. He should be happy: he’s in the WS. I mean, I could just as easily say I’ve never seen Devers look so unhappy as he did parts of this season. Trade him! Or... maybe it is cause they sucked and he was playing badly?
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Oct 24, 2020 15:42:28 GMT -5
I don't agree they change their organizational philosophy whenever the wind blows. They have been constant for 20 years in that we go for it in spurts. Then retool, reset, bridge years whatever you want to call it. Then go for it again. Like if Bloom thinks he has five years to build this team through the farm he's dead wrong. He'll get a few years and then be forced to go for it. Yet how he goes for it will be one the GM. Don't blame ownership for Sandoval, that's on Cherington. They never said sign him, he did because his marching orders are to win and he thought that was the best way. It's why if I'm Bloom you should take this free agency period seriously. If they aren't good again next year, our owners will demand he make big moves. We know this already because our owners marching orders have never changed. They don't mind some down years, yet you only get a few and you have limited time to get us back to being title contenders. Our owners have been great, they went against their plan in 2019 because the GM talked them into it. It turned into crap, made things even worse. Yet as a fan, after that 2018 team I respect the hell out of our owners for going for it. When it failed, it was right back to the grand plan. I get it, it sucks having down years. Yet it seems what most fans bitch about is exactly what makes our owners so good. It's not that they just change the plan, it's that they always stick to it. I've complained about so many moves over the years, like letting Pedro walk, trading Nomar, the Lester mess, the Lackey mess, letting Papelbon leave, firing DD, etc. Yet you can't complain about them not having a long-term plan. We know exactly what that is. Bloom knows exactly what his marching orders are. He also knows what will happen after this next cycle ends, we'll restart it. How many owners keep learning from their mistakes and keep at it like these two? We have owners who always have the goal of being the best. They self-correct a lot. They quickly found out Valentine was worse then a dead-end and changed (one example). They pour millions into making the Sox a contender, and somehow, because they aren't perfect, we have folks get on their butts. I will always appreciate their efforts and yes their championships!! I love the latest change....bringing in Bloom to attempt more consistent outcome. Some of you sound like DAN SHAUGHNESSY. A lot of this is the Boston Media, so many overly negative people. It's like a built in Culture, it's like they never adjusted to the winning. You listen to a bunch of these guys and it's like pre-2003, you'd never know our owners won 4 Championship's in 15 years.
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Post by unitspin on Oct 24, 2020 15:53:26 GMT -5
How many owners keep learning from their mistakes and keep at it like these two? We have owners who always have the goal of being the best. They self-correct a lot. They quickly found out Valentine was worse then a dead-end and changed (one example). They pour millions into making the Sox a contender, and somehow, because they aren't perfect, we have folks get on their butts. I will always appreciate their efforts and yes their championships!! I love the latest change....bringing in Bloom to attempt more consistent outcome. Some of you sound like DAN SHAUGHNESSY. A lot of this is the Boston Media, so many overly negative people. It's like a built in Culture, it's like they never adjusted to the winning. You listen to a bunch of these guys and it's like pre-2003, you'd never know our owners won 4 Championship's in 15 years. It also has to do with the fact most of bostons sports writers in high school were playing dungeon and dragons instead of sports. They just lead stories that sell instead of the truth. One of them posted boston is the most racist city in the country, have they ever traveled. Most journalist are tabloids now, good thing in 10-15 years they will all be gone.
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Post by patford on Oct 24, 2020 16:40:32 GMT -5
A lot of this is the Boston Media, so many overly negative people. It's like a built in Culture, it's like they never adjusted to the winning. You listen to a bunch of these guys and it's like pre-2003, you'd never know our owners won 4 Championship's in 15 years. It also has to do with the fact most of bostons sports writers in high school were playing dungeon and dragons instead of sports. They just lead stories that sell instead of the truth. One of them posted boston is the most racist city in the country, have they ever traveled. Most journalist are tabloids now, good thing in 10-15 years they will all be gone. Boston has always had more than it's share of toxic sports reporters. Guys who are actively working to hurt the Boston teams. I've always assumed they were trying to break onto the National scene. And I have always wished that the Boston teams had the sort of stenographer-megaphones with the biggest platform from which to reinforce the "party line." So while the Yankees with the highest exposure reporters who echo the Yankee talking points (professional hitters, pitchers who finesse the zone) the Sox have to deal with guys who want to prove they are National prime time material by stabbing the Sox in the back.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Oct 24, 2020 19:04:00 GMT -5
They also have a lot of trouble with 2+2. MLB has gradually tightened the screws on penalties for exceeding the cap. Something which seems to escape many is that the distorted value/cost curve for young talent is completely dependent on acquiring that talent, either through the stateside draft or internationally. Lose those picks by spending too much too often and you wreck the business model, It really is that simple.
From 2014 to 2016, Betts was worth 70 times what he was paid. So far, Devers has been worth 35 times what he's been paid. From both a competitive and a business perspective, losing that potential is a killer. It's what remains of the old Reserve Clause and for the owners it's gold. It's why no team has ever blown through that third tier over and over again.
It's exactly where choices were made, and why the team is up against the wall. And, sadly, it's probably one big part of why Betts is gone. It's the undercurrent for all the other stuff: the new GM, the lousy season, the reworking of the roster, the promotions from the minor leagues,... all of it is driven by a desire to work within the confines of a system that rewards richly by undervaluing young talent.
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Post by unitspin on Oct 25, 2020 7:25:02 GMT -5
They also have a lot of trouble with 2+2. MLB has gradually tightened the screws on penalties for exceeding the cap. Something which seems to escape many is that the distorted value/cost curve for young talent is completely dependent on acquiring that talent, either through the stateside draft or internationally. Lose those picks by spending too much too often and you wreck the business model, It really is that simple. From 2014 to 2016, Betts was worth 70 times what he was paid. So far, Devers has been worth 35 times what he's been paid. From both a competitive and a business perspective, losing that potential is a killer. It's what remains of the old Reserve Clause and for the owners it's gold. It's why no team has ever blown through that third tier over and over again. It's exactly where choices were made, and why the team is up against the wall. And, sadly, it's probably one big part of why Betts is gone. It's the undercurrent for all the other stuff: the new GM, the lousy season, the reworking of the roster, the promotions from the minor leagues,... all of it is driven by a desire to work within the confines of a system that rewards richly by undervaluing young talent. I tried to make a similar point about verdugo and downs worth far exceeding mookie's even if downs turn out to just be an average player. The cost savings from verdugo for his worth on the field is insane. He was a 1.9 war while mookie was 3.4. However, mookies contract is 50 times than that of verdugos. If you do not have young cheap talent on your team the cap has made it impossible to compete.
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Post by tyler3 on Oct 25, 2020 18:18:32 GMT -5
I do love Mookie but despite the frenzy of national media (nothing last night on his 0 for 5), he really hasn’t showed for the playoffs ever. 150 at bats, .253 average, 2 homeruns. Maybe he turns it around tonight. Small sample size, but beginning to get larger. Kinda of a follow up question, if Dodgers don’t win World Series does that change to whole win lose rational of the trade for any of you guys?
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 25, 2020 18:22:55 GMT -5
From the RS side? Why would the Dodgers winning the WS change how the Red Sox view the trade?
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Post by unitspin on Oct 25, 2020 18:36:47 GMT -5
I think the dodgers winning the WS helps the red sox in future trades. Mookie was viewed as the one piece they needed to put them over the edge. If they win another team in that same spot might say give them the extra piece too get it done bcs we could turn out like the dodgers did. Maybe I'm grasping at straws, still rooting for TB though.
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Post by patford on Oct 25, 2020 18:52:05 GMT -5
From the RS side? Why would the Dodgers winning the WS change how the Red Sox view the trade? It wouldn't at all. The Red Sox won the WS with Mookie hitting .217.
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Post by patford on Oct 25, 2020 19:08:37 GMT -5
From the RS side? Why would the Dodgers winning the WS change how the Red Sox view the trade? It wouldn't at all. The Red Sox won the WS with Mookie hitting .217. In fact if the Dodgers don't win the WS it may change how a lot of people in MLB view constructing a team. For example the Rays leader in BA, HR and RBI this season was Brandon Lowe. He hit .269. The Dodgers, with an absolutely loaded lineup and Verdugo in RF added Mookie by giving up Verdugo and Downs and adding a huge 12 year contract. How or why they felt what they needed was more firepower is hard to fathom.
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Oct 26, 2020 15:09:54 GMT -5
It wouldn't at all. The Red Sox won the WS with Mookie hitting .217. In fact if the Dodgers don't win the WS it may change how a lot of people in MLB view constructing a team. For example the Rays leader in BA, HR and RBI this season was Brandon Lowe. He hit .269. The Dodgers, with an absolutely loaded lineup and Verdugo in RF added Mookie by giving up Verdugo and Downs and adding a huge 12 year contract. How or why they felt what they needed was more firepower is hard to fathom. In fairness, neither Downs nor the contract are germane in terms of this season. It is fair to ask if the upgrade from Verdugo to Betts mattered in getting them where they are. I definitely think the case could be made they’d have been better off building the bullpen (getting Gaterade from MN might end up being as important in this seven game series). At the same time, I do think people tend to look at this so mathematically that they overlook the human element. Mookie dramatically improved their D. He added speed. He has made some plays thus far that might have saved the season, and he gas made some that likely lit a huge fire. I can’t see regretting anything from the Dodger’s side.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 26, 2020 16:02:54 GMT -5
In fact if the Dodgers don't win the WS it may change how a lot of people in MLB view constructing a team. For example the Rays leader in BA, HR and RBI this season was Brandon Lowe. He hit .269. The Dodgers, with an absolutely loaded lineup and Verdugo in RF added Mookie by giving up Verdugo and Downs and adding a huge 12 year contract. How or why they felt what they needed was more firepower is hard to fathom. In fairness, neither Downs nor the contract are germane in terms of this season. It is fair to ask if the upgrade from Verdugo to Betts mattered in getting them where they are. I definitely think the case could be made they’d have been better off building the bullpen (getting Gaterade from MN might end up being as important in this seven game series). At the same time, I do think people tend to look at this so mathematically that they overlook the human element. Mookie dramatically improved their D. He added speed. He has made some plays thus far that might have saved the season, and he gas made some that likely lit a huge fire. I can’t see regretting anything from the Dodger’s side. I mean, you could say that having Kenta Maeda, who led the majors in WHIP, would be better in terms of this season. In fact, you probably have to say that, right? I do think the upgrade from Verdugo to Betts is worth it for the Dodgers though. Even if not in pure on-field value, there's both signaling effects and a certain amount of intangible "we have the best player on the field" effect that getting him adds to a team that is just about there talent-wise.
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Post by patford on Oct 26, 2020 18:13:55 GMT -5
In fairness, neither Downs nor the contract are germane in terms of this season. It is fair to ask if the upgrade from Verdugo to Betts mattered in getting them where they are. I definitely think the case could be made they’d have been better off building the bullpen (getting Gaterade from MN might end up being as important in this seven game series). At the same time, I do think people tend to look at this so mathematically that they overlook the human element. Mookie dramatically improved their D. He added speed. He has made some plays thus far that might have saved the season, and he gas made some that likely lit a huge fire. I can’t see regretting anything from the Dodger’s side. I mean, you could say that having Kenta Maeda, who led the majors in WHIP, would be better in terms of this season. In fact, you probably have to say that, right? I do think the upgrade from Verdugo to Betts is worth it for the Dodgers though. Even if not in pure on-field value, there's both signaling effects and a certain amount of intangible "we have the best player on the field" effect that getting him adds to a team that is just about there talent-wise. Is it accurate to say that Mookie dramatically improved the Dodgers defense? Cody Bellinger won a Gold Glove playing RF for the Dodgers in 2019. And speaking of Bellinger; wasn't he the intangible "we have the best player on the field" ?
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Post by Oregon Norm on Oct 26, 2020 20:09:25 GMT -5
Maybe they're going for "we have the best player everywhere you look" (except the bullpen, don't look in the bullpen).
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Post by manfred on Oct 26, 2020 23:29:25 GMT -5
In fairness, neither Downs nor the contract are germane in terms of this season. It is fair to ask if the upgrade from Verdugo to Betts mattered in getting them where they are. I definitely think the case could be made they’d have been better off building the bullpen (getting Gaterade from MN might end up being as important in this seven game series). At the same time, I do think people tend to look at this so mathematically that they overlook the human element. Mookie dramatically improved their D. He added speed. He has made some plays thus far that might have saved the season, and he gas made some that likely lit a huge fire. I can’t see regretting anything from the Dodger’s side. I mean, you could say that having Kenta Maeda, who led the majors in WHIP, would be better in terms of this season. In fact, you probably have to say that, right? I do think the upgrade from Verdugo to Betts is worth it for the Dodgers though. Even if not in pure on-field value, there's both signaling effects and a certain amount of intangible "we have the best player on the field" effect that getting him adds to a team that is just about there talent-wise. Ah! Fair. Forgot that piece.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 27, 2020 15:53:23 GMT -5
I mean, you could say that having Kenta Maeda, who led the majors in WHIP, would be better in terms of this season. In fact, you probably have to say that, right? I do think the upgrade from Verdugo to Betts is worth it for the Dodgers though. Even if not in pure on-field value, there's both signaling effects and a certain amount of intangible "we have the best player on the field" effect that getting him adds to a team that is just about there talent-wise. Is it accurate to say that Mookie dramatically improved the Dodgers defense? Cody Bellinger won a Gold Glove playing RF for the Dodgers in 2019. And speaking of Bellinger; wasn't he the intangible "we have the best player on the field" ? Improved? Probably. Dramatically? I don't know about that - Verdugo is also a good defender. It's not like they went from a butcher to Betts. Fair point on Bellinger though. (And by the way, Bellinger is a case study in why stats from this year are going to need to be taken with a huge grain of salt going forward. His season numbers look bad for him (.239/.333/.455), but that's basically because he wasn't good for the first 24 games before something clicked in mid-August and he was back to .293/.401/.569 from August 19 onward. Not quite his insane 2019 line, but still excellent.)
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Post by manfred on Oct 27, 2020 16:25:40 GMT -5
Is it accurate to say that Mookie dramatically improved the Dodgers defense? Cody Bellinger won a Gold Glove playing RF for the Dodgers in 2019. And speaking of Bellinger; wasn't he the intangible "we have the best player on the field" ? Improved? Probably. Dramatically? I don't know about that - Verdugo is also a good defender. It's not like they went from a butcher to Betts. Fair point on Bellinger though. (And by the way, Bellinger is a case study in why stats from this year are going to need to be taken with a huge grain of salt going forward. His season numbers look bad for him (.239/.333/.455), but that's basically because he wasn't good for the first 24 games before something clicked in mid-August and he was back to .293/.401/.569 from August 19 onward. Not quite his insane 2019 line, but still excellent.) Well, they went up to a guy who may win the undisputed Gold Glove this year defending champ vs. defending champ. And in practice, again, Mookie’s D gas been a difference maker through the playoffs.
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Post by patford on Oct 27, 2020 18:36:23 GMT -5
Improved? Probably. Dramatically? I don't know about that - Verdugo is also a good defender. It's not like they went from a butcher to Betts. Fair point on Bellinger though. (And by the way, Bellinger is a case study in why stats from this year are going to need to be taken with a huge grain of salt going forward. His season numbers look bad for him (.239/.333/.455), but that's basically because he wasn't good for the first 24 games before something clicked in mid-August and he was back to .293/.401/.569 from August 19 onward. Not quite his insane 2019 line, but still excellent.) Well, they went up to a guy who may win the undisputed Gold Glove this year defending champ vs. defending champ. And in practice, again, Mookie’s D gas been a difference maker through the playoffs. Mookie is arguably the best OF in MLB. That said his recent three robberies are most notable for three balls in such a short period of time being hit with enough loft so that he could gather himself and leap for balls which were going to barely clear the fence catches like that have become almost routine and nothing top the guys who actually walk up the wall off a run.
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Post by manfred on Oct 27, 2020 22:48:16 GMT -5
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Post by fenwaymabe on Jan 21, 2021 15:26:34 GMT -5
Even if Dave doesn't ink Sale to that extension, it's doubtful that we could have extended Mookie before hitting free agency. I think the reason he inked the deal with the Dodgers has a lot to do with Covid 19. I think he and his reps realized what havoc that the decrease in revenues could have on his market. We forget that the Sox tried to sign Mookie to an extension before he was dealt. I think the front office wasn't prepared to let him hit the open market and lose him for just a draft pick. Free agency is a crap shoot. I miss Mookie as much as anyone. I think he is a rare generational talent, but if he wasn't going to sign an extension then you have to capitalize on his value when you can.
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Post by manfred on Jan 21, 2021 15:48:13 GMT -5
Even if Dave doesn't ink Sale to that extension, it's doubtful that we could have extended Mookie before hitting free agency. I think the reason he inked the deal with the Dodgers has a lot to do with Covid 19. I think he and his reps realized what havoc that the decrease in revenues could have on his market. We forget that the Sox tried to sign Mookie to an extension before he was dealt. I think the front office wasn't prepared to let him hit the open market and lose him for just a draft pick. Free agency is a crap shoot. I miss Mookie as much as anyone. I think he is a rare generational talent, but if he wasn't going to sign an extension then you have to capitalize on his value when you can. Except if they didn’t trade him, he’d still be under contract when Covid hit. If it changed his mind in LA, it’d be just as likely to do so in Boston.
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Post by fenwaymabe on Jan 21, 2021 16:00:50 GMT -5
I totally agree 100%. I just think Bloom was trying to get the most value he could while he could. With Sale out, it was going to be an uphill battle for a playoff spot anyway. I think Bloom was under the impression Mookie wasn't going to sign before hitting the open market. Do you hold him through the trade deadline and risk an injury or underperformance (unlikely) or do you move him before the season starts to maximize his value. It's highly unlikely we get that package at the trade deadline. He was just playing the hand he had been given. Hindsight being 20/20, I think Mookie signs with us once Covid hits, but Bloom did the best he could have with the info that was available to him.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 21, 2021 16:04:30 GMT -5
Even if Dave doesn't ink Sale to that extension, it's doubtful that we could have extended Mookie before hitting free agency. I think the reason he inked the deal with the Dodgers has a lot to do with Covid 19. I think he and his reps realized what havoc that the decrease in revenues could have on his market. We forget that the Sox tried to sign Mookie to an extension before he was dealt. I think the front office wasn't prepared to let him hit the open market and lose him for just a draft pick. Free agency is a crap shoot. I miss Mookie as much as anyone. I think he is a rare generational talent, but if he wasn't going to sign an extension then you have to capitalize on his value when you can. Except if they didn’t trade him, he’d still be under contract when Covid hit. If it changed his mind in LA, it’d be just as likely to do so in Boston. Maybe, but playing devil's advocate if he wasn't dealt it's still highly probable he would have left. With Betts the Sox still would have stunk and he still might have sought to match Trout's deal. Money can be tight for marginal players but George Springer still got paid. I doubt Mookie would have been scared into signing with the Sox. Especially if he wanted to leave. Especially if the Dodgers wanted to spend $ on him this offseason. Honestly, I think Betts would not have signed a Red Sox extension because I doubt the Sox would have spent the $ needed to make him want to sign. I still think the Dodgers would have made the offer they did. Hell they made that offer when there was a pandemic. Unless the Sox were going to give Mookie a Trout like extension he wasn't going to sign with Boston. And then there's the school of thought that Mookie was leaving no matter what, that he didn't want to stay in Boston, whatever the offer is. I think the best evidence was that Boston wasn't going to give Mookie the deal he wanted and the Dodgers would have. Had the Sox held on to him in 2020 they would still have stunk and he still would have walked. Going from Mookie to Verdugo is a downgrade, no way around that, although that's no slap at Verdugo - just about everybody except Aaron Judge or Mike Trout would be a downgrade. But getting the years that Verdugo and Downs (and Wong) give the Sox meant the Sox did the right thing trading him. There's no way around that fact. Of course had they managed their finances better maybe they would have been able to make the Trout-like offer (let's be honest, nobody was ever going to pay 12 years $420 million like it was reported he requested) for Betts, but there's no guarantee they would have made that offer just like there's no guarantee that he would have taken it if rumors were that they offered him what he wanted but he turned it down were true. I guess it just wasn't happening. It sucks, but it is what it is. The only thing I wish is that I knew for sure what the Sox offer was. Was it 10 years $300 million like Merloni said? I mean if the Sox offered him the Trout deal and he turned it down, it's easier to swallow as a Red Sox fan, but we just don't know and we'll probably never know. Just like we'll probably never know how the communication between Dombrowski and ownership got botched. I mean if ownership wanted to not get bogged down in post-2018 contracts why sign off on the Sale and Eovaldi re-signings? Well never know exactly what happened here either. It's be another mystery along the way that we can't know for sure. All we know is the end resulting mess that came from all of these unanswered questions.
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