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Post by manfred on Jan 21, 2021 16:21:17 GMT -5
Except if they didn’t trade him, he’d still be under contract when Covid hit. If it changed his mind in LA, it’d be just as likely to do so in Boston. Maybe, but playing devil's advocate if he wasn't dealt it's still highly probable he would have left. With Betts the Sox still would have stunk and he still might have sought to match Trout's deal. Money can be tight for marginal players but George Springer still got paid. I doubt Mookie would have been scared into signing with the Sox. Especially if he wanted to leave. Especially if the Dodgers wanted to spend $ on him this offseason. Honestly, I think Betts would not have signed a Red Sox extension because I doubt the Sox would have spent the $ needed to make him want to sign. I still think the Dodgers would have made the offer they did. Hell they made that offer when there was a pandemic. Unless the Sox were going to give Mookie a Trout like extension he wasn't going to sign with Boston. And then there's the school of thought that Mookie was leaving no matter what, that he didn't want to stay in Boston, whatever the offer is. I think the best evidence was that Boston wasn't going to give Mookie the deal he wanted and the Dodgers would have. Had the Sox held on to him in 2020 they would still have stunk and he still would have walked. Going from Mookie to Verdugo is a downgrade, no way around that, although that's no slap at Verdugo - just about everybody except Aaron Judge or Mike Trout would be a downgrade. But getting the years that Verdugo and Downs (and Wong) give the Sox meant the Sox did the right thing trading him. There's no way around that fact. Of course had they managed their finances better maybe they would have been able to make the Trout-like offer (let's be honest, nobody was ever going to pay 12 years $420 million like it was reported he requested) for Betts, but there's no guarantee they would have made that offer just like there's no guarantee that he would have taken it if rumors were that they offered him what he wanted but he turned it down were true. I guess it just wasn't happening. It sucks, but it is what it is. The only thing I wish is that I knew for sure what the Sox offer was. Was it 10 years $300 million like Merloni said? I mean if the Sox offered him the Trout deal and he turned it down, it's easier to swallow as a Red Sox fan, but we just don't know and we'll probably never know. Just like we'll probably never know how the communication between Dombrowski and ownership got botched. I mean if ownership wanted to not get bogged down in post-2018 contracts why sign off on the Sale and Eovaldi re-signings? Well never know exactly what happened here either. It's be another mystery along the way that we can't know for sure. All we know is the end resulting mess that came from all of these unanswered questions. Am not looking to relitigate. 🤷♂️Who knows?
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Post by Oregon Norm on Jan 21, 2021 16:31:18 GMT -5
Even if Dave doesn't ink Sale to that extension, it's doubtful that we could have extended Mookie before hitting free agency. I think the reason he inked the deal with the Dodgers has a lot to do with Covid 19. I think he and his reps realized what havoc that the decrease in revenues could have on his market. We forget that the Sox tried to sign Mookie to an extension before he was dealt. I think the front office wasn't prepared to let him hit the open market and lose him for just a draft pick. Free agency is a crap shoot. I miss Mookie as much as anyone. I think he is a rare generational talent, but if he wasn't going to sign an extension then you have to capitalize on his value when you can. Except if they didn’t trade him, he’d still be under contract when Covid hit. If it changed his mind in LA, it’d be just as likely to do so in Boston. It's asking an awful lot of the GM. That trade had probably been in the works when the details from Wuhan were nothing more than rumors and propaganda - I mean that literally. We had traveled to South America for ten days. By the time the first week in February had rolled around and we headed back, there was no travel ban, no masking, no distance restrictions - nothing. The scientific community was making notes and there was concern in the epidemiological world, but holding back on a trade would have required the sort of crystal ball no one has to this day.
Betts arrival in LA coincided with the rise in the virus. It still took a while for the significance of the pandemic to take hold, and it wasn't till July that Betts and the Dodgers reached an agreement on the extension. By that time it had become clear to everyone that get it while you can, wasn't just something from the Janis Joplin archives. I'm not a mind reader and I have no idea if that drove the decision. But when the money fueling the market has largely collapsed and someone lays that much on the table, free agent dreams are likely to take a back seat.
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Post by manfred on Jan 21, 2021 16:45:31 GMT -5
Except if they didn’t trade him, he’d still be under contract when Covid hit. If it changed his mind in LA, it’d be just as likely to do so in Boston. It's asking an awful lot of the GM. That trade had probably been in the works when the details from Wuhan were nothing more than rumors and propaganda - I mean that literally. We had traveled to South America for ten days. By the time the first week in February had rolled around and we headed back, there was no travel ban, no masking, no distance restrictions - nothing. The scientific community was making notes and there was concern in the epidemiological world, but holding back on a trade would have required the sort of crystal ball no one has to this day.
Betts arrival in LA coincided with the rise in the virus. It still took a while for the significance of the pandemic to take hold, and it wasn't till July that Betts and the Dodgers reached an agreement on the extension. By that time it had become clear to everyone that get it while you can, wasn't just something from the Janis Joplin archives. I'm not a mind reader and I have no idea if that drove the decision. But when the money fueling the market has largely collapsed and someone lays that much on the table, free agent dreams are likely to take a back seat. OK, I swear... not looking to relitigate. I just mean he had a year left on his contract. So if they’d played it out, hoping to resign him over the season, trade him at the deadline, pay up even if he hit free agency... if that chance had been taken.... then Covid would have hit early in that contract year. That was all I was getting at.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jan 21, 2021 16:48:28 GMT -5
OK let's all please not relitigate the Betts trade.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 21, 2021 17:03:08 GMT -5
OK let's all please not relitigate the Betts trade. So....how about we discuss Harry Frazee's decision to sell Babe Ruth
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Post by soxinjersey on Jan 21, 2021 22:20:28 GMT -5
Let’s be fair. The Sale extension is only a mistake in retrospect. I mean, since then, we lost Mookie for *lack* of an extension, worry about keeping other young guys etc. If Sale stayed healthy, we’re happy. And Morton was almost certainly never an option. Eovaldi, to my mind, was the disaster, and the one that I think many, many of us were immediately against. An oft-injured guy who is a back-ender even when healthy? Just not worth it. Really, is Eovaldi so much better than Perez? Yet he makes 3-4 times as much. You take him out, Sox are at $47 million right now. It is not impossible not signing NE alone might have freed Mookie money (though the Price money is a real complication). But the general point is fair: I think DD gets too much blame for “how we got here” when it is really a series of moves, bad breaks, the inevitable, etc. Even Mookie, I’ll concede. I curse everyone involved in trading him to their graves and beyond — to the tenth generation! — buuuutttt.... the downside of generational talent is they get very expensive. With this idiotic “cap,” it throws things out of whack. I think you're right as far as the fact they signed him to an extension at all, but I think you can criticize the Sale extension for being market value and coming off a year in which he had multiple IL stints due to shoulder inflammation, and in which they leaned on him pretty hard in the postseason. By waiting they'd have saved about 30 million by my estimate, looking at the FA market last offseason (compare his deal to what, say, Wheeler got). If he'd taken a haircut to have the security of an extension, then fine. But at $29M AAV, he got at least market value, if not more. There's also evaluating the extension in a vacuum versus in the big picture. They essentially prioritized extending Sale over having the flexibility to potentially re-sign other parts of their young core. Sale's value wasn't going to go up, so it's not clear the utility of extending him for market value versus seeing how 2019 plays out. Signing him to that extension was very reflexive when they needed to start being creative rather than just "re-sign everyone," which was the mode Dombrowski was operating in. I've found this discussion really interesting and important. Let me approach it from a different, somewhat speculative angle. I believe most Sox fans imagined the Sox had a shot at a mini-dynasty after winning the WS in 2018 and further that DD hoped to make that happen. Eovaldi was a FA after that season and DD signed him to that big contract in Dec. 2018 when the team was still essentially intact. The comparison to Morton is revealing. If you look at their career stats, their records are closer than you probably assume. Morton became a first-rate pitcher only late in his career in his age 34 & 35 seasons. Eovaldi pitched very well for the Sox in 2018 and has the ability to be a fine pitcher (but only if he can stay healthy). He was a hero in the WS. DD was taking a chance that he would fulfill his potential and become a late-bloomer (he's still only 30) as Morton and many other pitchers have been (including Curt Schilling). Everybody knew that the issue of contracts was hanging over the team in ST in 2019, and most assumed that any new contracts would be signed before the start of the season. Betts was obviously the first guy to pursue, but by the start of the season had not signed a contract. Then, as I remember (but could not verify) DD signed Sale and Bogaerts in the first week of the season. At the moment, everybody found the timing strange. The question is whether DD offered the contracts he did because he knew he could not sign Mookie, either because he was committed to testing the market or because the Sox (and not necessarily DD) would not meet his salary demands. At the time, the signings seemed a little desperate (or "reflexive" perhaps) because DD could not sign Mookie. My guess is that DD felt that the team could still be strong for multiple years if he could lock up key players. My further assumption at the moment, which I saw no reason to change over the course of that season, was that 2019 would be Mookie's last in Boston. The way the team played early in the season, especially on that West-Coast swing to start the year, seemed to confirm their disappointment at Mookie's situation. It's hard to know what goes on inside teams, but I felt that the team's inability to get going all year, and their fade at the end, reflected their unhappiness at what they saw as Mookie's impending departure. They didn't feel much different from almost every poster on this board. If we can perhaps say that the Sox played 2019 under the cloud of Mookie's situation, then we can perhaps also say that we could see their grieving in the first half of 2020 for his departure. (And yes, I do think that teams react emotionally to situations like this involving a teammate they respect and love.) One of the reasons for my optimism for this coming season resides in this situation. As the 2020 season continued, the Sox played better, and the good performance of the kids in the final weeks generated energy. The hiring of Cora added to the positive mood (at least in my mind). Athletes are competitors. My guess is that they are happy for Mookie's championship with LA but that they want to prove that they can play well and win without him. A month ago, I felt that 2-3 really good moves on the FA market could put the Sox in a position to have a good season and be a dangerous team in October. It's still possible -- I don't think they need as much as the rest of you do -- but the window is narrowing.
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Jan 22, 2021 7:58:40 GMT -5
Except if they didn’t trade him, he’d still be under contract when Covid hit. If it changed his mind in LA, it’d be just as likely to do so in Boston. It's asking an awful lot of the GM. That trade had probably been in the works when the details from Wuhan were nothing more than rumors and propaganda - I mean that literally. We had traveled to South America for ten days. By the time the first week in February had rolled around and we headed back, there was no travel ban, no masking, no distance restrictions - nothing. The scientific community was making notes and there was concern in the epidemiological world, but holding back on a trade would have required the sort of crystal ball no one has to this day.
Betts arrival in LA coincided with the rise in the virus. It still took a while for the significance of the pandemic to take hold, and it wasn't till July that Betts and the Dodgers reached an agreement on the extension. By that time it had become clear to everyone that get it while you can, wasn't just something from the Janis Joplin archives. I'm not a mind reader and I have no idea if that drove the decision. But when the money fueling the market has largely collapsed and someone lays that much on the table, free agent dreams are likely to take a back seat. Theres also been a lot of smoke regarding Mookie not having the best feelings about Boston. I think he probably still hits the market if he stayed here unless Boston gave him Mike Trouts deal. It just wasn't going to happen and he's probably 10 times happier in LA than Boston and when he retires he's going to be remembered as a Dodger. Is what it is. You just have to hope that if Verdugo even approaches that level the team will lock him up asap and that he would be willing.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 22, 2021 8:38:20 GMT -5
It's asking an awful lot of the GM. That trade had probably been in the works when the details from Wuhan were nothing more than rumors and propaganda - I mean that literally. We had traveled to South America for ten days. By the time the first week in February had rolled around and we headed back, there was no travel ban, no masking, no distance restrictions - nothing. The scientific community was making notes and there was concern in the epidemiological world, but holding back on a trade would have required the sort of crystal ball no one has to this day. Betts arrival in LA coincided with the rise in the virus. It still took a while for the significance of the pandemic to take hold, and it wasn't till July that Betts and the Dodgers reached an agreement on the extension. By that time it had become clear to everyone that get it while you can, wasn't just something from the Janis Joplin archives. I'm not a mind reader and I have no idea if that drove the decision. But when the money fueling the market has largely collapsed and someone lays that much on the table, free agent dreams are likely to take a back seat. Theres also been a lot of smoke regarding Mookie not having the best feelings about Boston. I think he probably still hits the market if he stayed here unless Boston gave him Mike Trouts deal. It just wasn't going to happen and he's probably 10 times happier in LA than Boston and when he retires he's going to be remembered as a Dodger. Is what it is. You just have to hope that if Verdugo even approaches that level the team will lock him up asap and that he would be willing. You're right - that Mookie will be remembered as a Dodger primarily and will likely go into the HOF in a Dodger cap. But he will be remembered as a Red Sox, too. He was the best player on the best team in Red Sox history. That won't be forgotten. I know it's kind of the way Babe Ruth is remembered as a Red Sox secondarily or Jimmie Foxx or Lefty Grove is remembered as a Red Sox secondarily. It's not like Yaz or Williams but it is something. Mookie's tenure here will always be remembered - and fondly.
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Post by Guidas on Jan 22, 2021 8:46:35 GMT -5
It's asking an awful lot of the GM. That trade had probably been in the works when the details from Wuhan were nothing more than rumors and propaganda - I mean that literally. We had traveled to South America for ten days. By the time the first week in February had rolled around and we headed back, there was no travel ban, no masking, no distance restrictions - nothing. The scientific community was making notes and there was concern in the epidemiological world, but holding back on a trade would have required the sort of crystal ball no one has to this day. Betts arrival in LA coincided with the rise in the virus. It still took a while for the significance of the pandemic to take hold, and it wasn't till July that Betts and the Dodgers reached an agreement on the extension. By that time it had become clear to everyone that get it while you can, wasn't just something from the Janis Joplin archives. I'm not a mind reader and I have no idea if that drove the decision. But when the money fueling the market has largely collapsed and someone lays that much on the table, free agent dreams are likely to take a back seat. Theres also been a lot of smoke regarding Mookie not having the best feelings about Boston. I think he probably still hits the market if he stayed here unless Boston gave him Mike Trouts deal. It just wasn't going to happen and he's probably 10 times happier in LA than Boston and when he retires he's going to be remembered as a Dodger. Is what it is. You just have to hope that if Verdugo even approaches that level the team will lock him up asap and that he would be willing. Why would they lock-up Verdugo long-term, who at very best will be 80% the player Mookie is, when they wouldn’t lock up Mookie, a transformational player, in his prime? I mean, unless Verdugo gives them a substantial discount, which I doubt he (or any talented player knowing the average length of MLB careers) does.
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Jan 22, 2021 9:03:36 GMT -5
Theres also been a lot of smoke regarding Mookie not having the best feelings about Boston. I think he probably still hits the market if he stayed here unless Boston gave him Mike Trouts deal. It just wasn't going to happen and he's probably 10 times happier in LA than Boston and when he retires he's going to be remembered as a Dodger. Is what it is. You just have to hope that if Verdugo even approaches that level the team will lock him up asap and that he would be willing. Why would they lock-up Verdugo long-term, who at very best will be 80% the player Mookie is, when they wouldn’t lock up Mookie, a transformational player, in his prime? I mean, unless Verdugo gives them a substantial discount, which I doubt he (or any talented player knowing the average length of MLB careers) does. If he approaches even close to that level why wouldn't they lock him up? They need to learn from their mistakes.
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TearsIn04
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Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
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Post by TearsIn04 on Jan 22, 2021 9:10:09 GMT -5
Theres also been a lot of smoke regarding Mookie not having the best feelings about Boston. I think he probably still hits the market if he stayed here unless Boston gave him Mike Trouts deal. It just wasn't going to happen and he's probably 10 times happier in LA than Boston and when he retires he's going to be remembered as a Dodger. Is what it is. You just have to hope that if Verdugo even approaches that level the team will lock him up asap and that he would be willing. Why would they lock-up Verdugo long-term, who at very best will be 80% the player Mookie is, when they wouldn’t lock up Mookie, a transformational player, in his prime? I mean, unless Verdugo gives them a substantial discount, which I doubt he (or any talented player knowing the average length of MLB careers) does. Because Verdugo might be willing to agree to a contract in which he gives up the chance to hit FA and max out in return for a sum of money that sets him up for life. He'd be eliminating the risk that he gets hurt or his performance declines before FA. Mookie wasn't willing to do that.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jan 22, 2021 9:25:46 GMT -5
Theres also been a lot of smoke regarding Mookie not having the best feelings about Boston. I think he probably still hits the market if he stayed here unless Boston gave him Mike Trouts deal. It just wasn't going to happen and he's probably 10 times happier in LA than Boston and when he retires he's going to be remembered as a Dodger. Is what it is. You just have to hope that if Verdugo even approaches that level the team will lock him up asap and that he would be willing. Why would they lock-up Verdugo long-term, who at very best will be 80% the player Mookie is, when they wouldn’t lock up Mookie, a transformational player, in his prime? I mean, unless Verdugo gives them a substantial discount, which I doubt he (or any talented player knowing the average length of MLB careers) does. What makes you think they wouldn’t lock up Mookie? Mookie didn’t want to sign.
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Post by benzinger on Jan 22, 2021 9:26:03 GMT -5
Theres also been a lot of smoke regarding Mookie not having the best feelings about Boston. I think he probably still hits the market if he stayed here unless Boston gave him Mike Trouts deal. It just wasn't going to happen and he's probably 10 times happier in LA than Boston and when he retires he's going to be remembered as a Dodger. Is what it is. You just have to hope that if Verdugo even approaches that level the team will lock him up asap and that he would be willing. You're right - that Mookie will be remembered as a Dodger primarily and will likely go into the HOF in a Dodger cap. But he will be remembered as a Red Sox, too. He was the best player on the best team in Red Sox history. That won't be forgotten. I know it's kind of the way Babe Ruth is remembered as a Red Sox secondarily or Jimmie Foxx or Lefty Grove is remembered as a Red Sox secondarily. It's not like Yaz or Williams but it is something. Mookie's tenure here will always be remembered - and fondly. Mookie didn’t want to stay in Boston long-term. They got some nice pieces(potentially) for him for the future. Let us also not forget how awful that Betts contract will look over the last several years. 12 years is an absurd contract to guarantee ANYONE. You won’t be so sentimental when Mookie turns into Vernon Wells.
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Post by benzinger on Jan 22, 2021 9:38:35 GMT -5
Theres also been a lot of smoke regarding Mookie not having the best feelings about Boston. I think he probably still hits the market if he stayed here unless Boston gave him Mike Trouts deal. It just wasn't going to happen and he's probably 10 times happier in LA than Boston and when he retires he's going to be remembered as a Dodger. Is what it is. You just have to hope that if Verdugo even approaches that level the team will lock him up asap and that he would be willing. Why would they lock-up Verdugo long-term, who at very best will be 80% the player Mookie is, when they wouldn’t lock up Mookie, a transformational player, in his prime? I mean, unless Verdugo gives them a substantial discount, which I doubt he (or any talented player knowing the average length of MLB careers) does. In theory, Bloom will clean up the awful contracts that have tied the hands of the franchise over the last few years(Pedroia, Rusney, Panda & Hanley in the “set the money on fire” camp and then Price, Sale & JDM in the “vastly overpaid” camp). So they will have the money to pay Verdugo if he turns into a superstar. The whole franchise is getting a reboot and they will spend much more intelligently going forward.
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Post by soxinsf on Aug 4, 2021 1:08:03 GMT -5
Mookie played 2B for the Dodgers tonight.
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Post by bosoxnation on Aug 4, 2021 2:51:45 GMT -5
Mookie played 2B for the Dodgers tonight. He’s been playing 2nd here and there. They showed him making an over the shoulder catch against the diamondbacks. It was a beauty. He was also fielding a ground ball to his left and tripped over his own feet 😂. It was funny because on sportscenter they were like, Mookie is athletic so they can plug him almost anywhere. I wanted to yell NO HE CAME UP AS A 2ND BASEMAN! We put him in the OF and made him overpriced! If he was a 2nd baseman there’s nobody paying him that much haha.
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Post by manfred on Aug 5, 2021 10:26:27 GMT -5
Maybe overpriced…. But he now has more WAR in fewer games than anyone on our roster. In a down year.
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Post by iakovos11 on Aug 5, 2021 10:49:36 GMT -5
Maybe overpriced…. But he now has more WAR in fewer games than anyone on our roster. In a down year. Let it go Let it go Let it go - Advice from Elsa
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Post by incandenza on Aug 5, 2021 11:00:03 GMT -5
Maybe overpriced…. But he now has more WAR in fewer games than anyone on our roster. In a down year. I'm reminded of 2019, when Xander was having an amazing season and Devers was having his big breakout year and all the focus was on them, while Mookie was down a little from his MVP season and seemed a little lost at the plate for stretches, and yet somehow in the end he was right at the top of the list with a 7-WAR season.
They should call him Ares cuz he's the Greek God of WAR - he adds value in so many different ways, it's like he just conjures big WAR totals, even, as you say, in a down season.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 5, 2021 11:00:35 GMT -5
Maybe overpriced…. But he now has more WAR in fewer games than anyone on our roster. In a down year. Yes, Mookie doesn't suck. Who knew?
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Aug 5, 2021 11:02:57 GMT -5
The national perception of the city towards race relations and David Price poisoned his view point. I also think the parade issue was also something that was kind of a final straw. I'll still cheer when he's inducted into the hall of fame 15 years from now as a Dodger and wonder what could have been had he stayed. Dombrowski could have had this team 100 million under the tax. Mookie was not coming back unless the Sox significantly overpaid him.
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Post by manfred on Aug 5, 2021 11:25:05 GMT -5
Maybe overpriced…. But he now has more WAR in fewer games than anyone on our roster. In a down year. Let it go Let it go Let it go - Advice from Elsa What is this thread called?
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Post by Guidas on Aug 5, 2021 11:25:59 GMT -5
Maybe overpriced…. But he now has more WAR in fewer games than anyone on our roster. In a down year. Let it go Let it go Let it go - Advice from Elsa I refuse to ever see that movie.
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Post by iakovos11 on Aug 5, 2021 12:49:20 GMT -5
Let it go Let it go Let it go - Advice from Elsa What is this thread called? It doesn't mean rehash the same arguments over and over again, though. Trust me, EVRYONE know how you feel about Mookie. jmei mentioned this in another thread, too. Several posters are doing this lately.
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Post by manfred on Aug 5, 2021 12:59:37 GMT -5
What is this thread called? It doesn't mean rehash the same arguments over and over again, though. Trust me, EVRYONE know how you feel about Mookie. jmei mentioned this in another thread, too. Several posters are doing this lately. Then maybe lock the thread? Cause I guess a thread about Mookie is gunna have posts about where Mookie is right now? I never mention him elsewhere anymore. But seemed appropriate here.
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