SoxProspects News
|
|
|
|
Legal
Forum Ground Rules
The views expressed by the members of this Forum do not necessarily reflect the views of SoxProspects, LLC.
© 2003-2024 SoxProspects, LLC
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home | Search | My Profile | Messages | Members | Help |
Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
History of Red Sox Reliever Trades
ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,936
|
Post by ericmvan on Mar 5, 2021 5:36:58 GMT -5
Not mentioning a reliever the Red Sox traded away in Spring Training of 1972 for a light-hitting first baseman is a good way to avoid pain. I'll put the best spin I can put on this one. The trade of which you speak did yield a PTBNL as a pity gesture by you-know-who which yielded forgettable Mario Guerrero. He was then turned around for a guy who DID contribute to a pennant winning Red Sox team, a reliever by the name of Jim Willoughby, who probably should have been kept in to pitch the 9th inning of Game 7, particularly after he mowed down the Reds in order during the 8th inning. Maybe if they did, perhaps the Sox might have won. That's about as much lipstick as I can apply to that pig of a trade they made that you're referring to. No, that was pure fiction. Th Sox were getting hammered for the terrible Cater trade. Mario Guerrero was a wholly separate cash acquisition the next year, which would have happened with or without the trade. The Sox asked the Yankees if they could announce it as a belated, retroactive PTBNL for the Cater trade, and the Yankees went along. "Oh, BTW, we never told anybody, but there was a PTBNL in that trade!" But there was also cash going to the Yankees.
|
|
|
Post by costpet on Mar 5, 2021 6:32:34 GMT -5
Sparky Lyle for Danny Cater. Probably the worst trade in history.
|
|
|
Post by johnsilver52 on Mar 5, 2021 9:14:03 GMT -5
Not mentioning a reliever the Red Sox traded away in Spring Training of 1972 for a light-hitting first baseman is a good way to avoid pain. I'll put the best spin I can put on this one. The trade of which you speak did yield a PTBNL as a pity gesture by you-know-who which yielded forgettable Mario Guerrero. He was then turned around for a guy who DID contribute to a pennant winning Red Sox team, a reliever by the name of Jim Willoughby, who probably should have been kept in to pitch the 9th inning of Game 7, particularly after he mowed down the Reds in order during the 8th inning. Maybe if they did, perhaps the Sox might have won. That's about as much lipstick as I can apply to that pig of a trade they made that you're referring to. Willoughby and Moret were the only 2 solid relievers that '75 team had and Willow was hurt that year.. Shoulder maybe?? He came back for the stretch run and how many evenings listened to that team on the radio, they would be in trouble and would be hoping Willoughby would be the name announced as coming in by Ned martin/Jim Woods.
|
|
|
Post by kman22 on Mar 5, 2021 13:08:33 GMT -5
Andrew Bailey for Josh Reddick and prospects, that one stings more in hindsight.
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Mar 5, 2021 13:43:51 GMT -5
Sparky Lyle for Danny Cater. Probably the worst trade in history. Jeff Bagwell says hello and that's acknowledging that Larry Andersen gave the Sox about 20 strong innings of relief. There have been worse trades in history. Babe Ruth was a sale not a trade. But there were deals where the Cubs stole young Fergie Jenkins from the Phils for washed up Bob Buhl and they also stole Ryne Sandberg from the Phils as well. The Cards stole from the Cubs in the Lou Brock/Ernie Broglio deal. The James Shields/Fernando Tatis Jr deal isn't looking too good for the White Sox. And there are plenty I've neglected to mention because I can't think of it offhand. The Lyle deal was up there, though.
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Mar 5, 2021 13:47:43 GMT -5
I'll put the best spin I can put on this one. The trade of which you speak did yield a PTBNL as a pity gesture by you-know-who which yielded forgettable Mario Guerrero. He was then turned around for a guy who DID contribute to a pennant winning Red Sox team, a reliever by the name of Jim Willoughby, who probably should have been kept in to pitch the 9th inning of Game 7, particularly after he mowed down the Reds in order during the 8th inning. Maybe if they did, perhaps the Sox might have won. That's about as much lipstick as I can apply to that pig of a trade they made that you're referring to. Willoughby and Moret were the only 2 solid relievers that '75 team had and Willow was hurt that year.. Shoulder maybe?? He came back for the stretch run and how many evenings listened to that team on the radio, they would be in trouble and would be hoping Willoughby would be the name announced as coming in by Ned martin/Jim Woods. Drago was solid that year in relief. I know he pitched 3 innings the night before but either him or Willoughby, even with the lefties scheduled, should have pitched the 9th inning of Game 7, 1975. Moret kind of blew Game 7. He came in with a runner on and 1 out in the 7th and the Sox up 3-2 and surrendered the tying run. He kind of shuttled between relief and starting. I think he had a 27-5 record over two consecutive seasons, 74-75.
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Mar 5, 2021 13:51:35 GMT -5
I'll put the best spin I can put on this one. The trade of which you speak did yield a PTBNL as a pity gesture by you-know-who which yielded forgettable Mario Guerrero. He was then turned around for a guy who DID contribute to a pennant winning Red Sox team, a reliever by the name of Jim Willoughby, who probably should have been kept in to pitch the 9th inning of Game 7, particularly after he mowed down the Reds in order during the 8th inning. Maybe if they did, perhaps the Sox might have won. That's about as much lipstick as I can apply to that pig of a trade they made that you're referring to. No, that was pure fiction. Th Sox were getting hammered for the terrible Cater trade. Mario Guerrero was a wholly separate cash acquisition the next year, which would have happened with or without the trade. The Sox asked the Yankees if they could announce it as a belated, retroactive PTBNL for the Cater trade, and the Yankees went along. "Oh, BTW, we never told anybody, but there was a PTBNL in that trade!" But there was also cash going to the Yankees. I don't know why but I always thought that the Sox gave Lyle to the Yankees as a thanks for receiving Elston Howard down the stretch in 1967 although that sounds kind of crazy. I think that O'Connell knew he was being ripped off, but had to make the trade because Lyle sat naked on Yawkey's birthday cake or whatever the stories were at the time. The gist of it was that he was mandated by ownership to rid the Sox of Lyle.
|
|
|
Post by johnsilver52 on Mar 5, 2021 14:16:09 GMT -5
Sparky Lyle for Danny Cater. Probably the worst trade in history. Jeff Bagwell says hello and that's acknowledging that Larry Andersen gave the Sox about 20 strong innings of relief. There have been worse trades in history. Babe Ruth was a sale not a trade. But there were deals where the Cubs stole young Fergie Jenkins from the Phils for washed up Bob Buhl and they also stole Ryne Sandberg from the Phils as well. The Cards stole from the Cubs in the Lou Brock/Ernie Broglio deal. The James Shields/Fernando Tatis Jr deal isn't looking too good for the White Sox. And there are plenty I've neglected to mention because I can't think of it offhand. The Lyle deal was up there, though. Oh I can give u one and It always gets left out of horrid pitcher deals lists for some reason.. Lefty Carlton for.. Rick Wise.. Wise even added more salt to the awfulness of the deal after year 1 of the deal when lefty had an all world season with the bottom dwelling Phillies and once again.. Wise put up pedestrian, mid rotation (for those days) numbers with the Cardinals saying "sometimes, deals take more than 1 year to even out". Wise was correct, he was out of St Looie after cp years and shipped to Boston and Carlton well on his way to the HOF in Philly. What I remember of Wise, especially his last 2 yrs in Boston, was if he could get past inning number 1, he'd be ok and have a decent outing. That 1st inning was his bugaboo tho and even that lughead Zimmer finally figured it out and would have someone warming up during his starts late during his Boston tenure.
|
|
|
Post by rasimon on Mar 5, 2021 17:34:28 GMT -5
Jeff Bagwell says hello and that's acknowledging that Larry Andersen gave the Sox about 20 strong innings of relief. There have been worse trades in history. Babe Ruth was a sale not a trade. But there were deals where the Cubs stole young Fergie Jenkins from the Phils for washed up Bob Buhl and they also stole Ryne Sandberg from the Phils as well. The Cards stole from the Cubs in the Lou Brock/Ernie Broglio deal. The James Shields/Fernando Tatis Jr deal isn't looking too good for the White Sox. And there are plenty I've neglected to mention because I can't think of it offhand. The Lyle deal was up there, though. Oh I can give u one and It always gets left out of horrid pitcher deals lists for some reason.. Lefty Carlton for.. Rick Wise.. Wise even added more salt to the awfulness of the deal after year 1 of the deal when lefty had an all world season with the bottom dwelling Phillies and once again.. Wise put up pedestrian, mid rotation (for those days) numbers with the Cardinals saying "sometimes, deals take more than 1 year to even out". Wise was correct, he was out of St Looie after cp years and shipped to Boston and Carlton well on his way to the HOF in Philly. What I remember of Wise, especially his last 2 yrs in Boston, was if he could get past inning number 1, he'd be ok and have a decent outing. That 1st inning was his bugaboo tho and even that lughead Zimmer finally figured it out and would have someone warming up during his starts late during his Boston tenure. Glen Davis for Schilling, Harnish, and Finley has to be up there
|
|
|
Post by johnsilver52 on Mar 5, 2021 18:06:30 GMT -5
Funny thing about Schill, is he was like the old style generic pitcher included in the Boddicker deal way back. Pete Ladd, my old buddy from his HaSox days was a "throw in" in the Bob Watson deal to Houston, then moved on to Milwaukee, but the brewers would have had a hard time winning it all in '83 without the terrific season of Sasquatch.. The gentle giant and my old dear friend.
|
|
|
Post by kingofthetrill on Mar 5, 2021 20:36:07 GMT -5
I vaguely remember a ton of buying reliever transactions going sideways. I'm going to post the transactions I can think of for now (plus some research) and leave the analysis for those that are far smarter than I am.
2000: Lew Ford for Hector Carrasco 2001: Ugueth Urbina for Tomo Ohka and Rich Rundles 2002: Alan Embree and Andy Shibilo for Dan Giese and Brad Baker 2003: Byung-Hyun Kim for Shea Hillenbrand Scott Sauerbeck and Mike Gonzalez for Brandon Lyon and Anastacio Martinez. I think they traded for Scott Williamson and Jeff Suppan as well that year. I don't know if Suppan was a starter or reliever then. 2004: Terry Adams for John Hattig. 2005: Chad Bradford for Jay Payton. And Mike Remlinger for Olivo Astacio. 2007: Eric Gagne deal. 2006 had relievers included in trades (ie Beckett/Lowell/Mota) but weren't the main focus. 2009: Ramon Ramirez for Coco Crisp.
That's about as far as I got for now. Mostly a lot of noise, which is probably the main point.
|
|
|
Post by soxin8 on Mar 6, 2021 12:52:47 GMT -5
Willoughby and Moret were the only 2 solid relievers that '75 team had and Willow was hurt that year.. Shoulder maybe?? He came back for the stretch run and how many evenings listened to that team on the radio, they would be in trouble and would be hoping Willoughby would be the name announced as coming in by Ned martin/Jim Woods. Drago was solid that year in relief. I know he pitched 3 innings the night before but either him or Willoughby, even with the lefties scheduled, should have pitched the 9th inning of Game 7, 1975. Moret kind of blew Game 7. He came in with a runner on and 1 out in the 7th and the Sox up 3-2 and surrendered the tying run. He kind of shuttled between relief and starting. I think he had a 27-5 record over two consecutive seasons, 74-75. This is my good Roger Moret memory. My good friend in high school invited me to his church youth groups baseball outing to watch a doubleheader in Shea (Yankee stadium being renovated) between Boston and NY. Lee and Moret each pitched complete game shutouts defeating Catfish Hunter and Tippy Martinez 1-0 and 6-0. Lynn made an incredible diving catch in left center to save the shutout in game one. sabr.org/gamesproj/game/july-27-1975-red-sox-double-whitewash-yankees-in-guidrys-debut-game-2/If you are interested, I found Lynn's catch. It's at the 12:00 minute mark of this video. Jim Rice does a nice hurdle to avoid him.
|
|
|
Post by manfred on Mar 6, 2021 12:57:09 GMT -5
Not a trade, but letting Ryan Pressly go as a Rule 5 guy turned out to be a mistake.
|
|
|
Post by johnsilver52 on Mar 6, 2021 17:21:01 GMT -5
Not a trade, but letting Ryan Pressly go as a Rule 5 guy turned out to be a mistake. They weren't exactly known for drafting pitchers during the Epstein era were they. Sure, a Bucholz, but they did have guys drafted way down, like Pressley, Hunter Strickland escape to become successful relievers elsewhere. Pitching in general as draftees was massive black hole from Epstein until Dombrowski cam along and ditched that nonsense "big bodied pitchability" theme and went for guys who could throw past 90mph like the rest of the league and MANY of us here had been screaming about for years.
|
|
ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,936
|
Post by ericmvan on Mar 7, 2021 10:24:51 GMT -5
Sparky Lyle for Danny Cater. Probably the worst trade in history. Not even the worst Red Sox trade of that off-season.
They had Yaz in LF, Reggie Smith in CF, and for RF, Rick Miller's rookie season (after a great cup of coffee in '71), Billy Conigliaro, Joe Lahoud, and Ben Oglivie. When Miller got a chance to play regularly in CF in '73, his bat vs. RHP proved to be perfectly OK. He and Billy C would have made a decent RF platoon ... until Dwight Evans started his MLB career in September.
They decided they needed to get a CF and move Smith to RF. WTF? Smith was still a terrific defender in CF, coming off of +21 and +14 R/150 seasons. They had tried the same thing the previous year -- playing Billy C in CF and Smith in RF -- and he'd been +0 in RF (the easier position!) because he's never played there, and they had realized this was wrong and swapped them. Starting August 5th.
The guy they decided to get to play CF was Tommy Harper. WTF? Harper at age 31 had started 87 career games in CF and been slightly below average, but he hadn't played OF regularly in 1969 or 1970 and had been -15 R/150 in LF when he had returned there in 1971. But a scout saw him play and swore he could play CF for the Sox.
The guy they decided to trade for Harper was George Scott, the best defensive 1B of all time. WTF? Harper was a better offensive player at that point, no doubt, but Scott had settled in as a 2.9 - 3.3 bWAR 1B.
Harper was coming of of bWAR seasons of 0.4, 7.4 (one of the all-time fluke years, of course), 0.9. He was three years older than Scott. So what did the Brewers give us to even off the trade?
Umm .. the rest of the trade was Jim Lonborg, Ken Brett, Billy C, Lahoud, and Don Paveltich for Marty Pattin and Lew Krause.
And who was going to play 1B, now? Not Yaz; the whole point of their defensive makeover for 1970 had been to move 3B Scott and 1B Yaz back to their immensely more valuable best positions.
The plan was that Cecil Cooper would jump from AA. Nobody in the organization was aware that he hadn't yet learned to field the position. (He also would have been overmatched at the plate; an 880 OPS in AA doesn't translate to immediate MLB success.)
The Sox discovered in ST that Cooper couldn't play 1B, so they traded Lyle for Danny Cater. No Scott trade, no Lyle trade. I was reading the Globe every day. That was the point of the trade: to fill the hole at 1B.
All of the defensive numbers for the 1972 Sox were crazy bad, including Smith at -6 in RF, suggesting that they had a pitching staff with unusually bad BABIP skill. So maybe Harper wasn't quite as bad as his -24 R/150 in CF.
Cater, of course, was so predictably awful at 1B that Yaz had to move back there in mid-August.
Harper still was a solid offensive player, and Yaz was still a plus fielder in LF, and in 1973 the DH was born. Problem solved! No, of course not. They signed Orlando Cepeda to DH (1.5 bWAR), kept Yaz at 1B, and put Harper in LF. Where he played good defense, ironically, as did Yaz at 1B.
Cepeda, meanwhile, was the foreshadow of their later on-and-off obsession with aging hitters:
1980 Tony Perez, 38, 1B, 0.7 WAR 1981 Perez, 0.4 1984 Bill Buckner, 34, 1B, -0.3 1984 Mike Easler, 33, DH, 3.7 (but traded even-up for John Tudor!)
1985 Buckner, 1.5 1985 Easler, 0.4
1986 Buckner -0.3 1986 Don Baylor, 37, DH, 1.6 1987 Baylor, 0.4
1987 Buckner, -1.4
1991 Jack Clark, 35, DH, 2.3 1992 Clark, 0.0 (320 PA) 1993 Andre Dawson, 38, DH, -0.2 1994 Dawson, -1.1 [Jose Canseco era here! 5.6 WAR over 2 years.]
2000-1 Dante Bichette, 36, DH, 0.8 (1 1/6 seasons) 2002 Rickey Henderson, 43, LF, 0.4 (222 PA)
|
|
|
Post by manfred on Mar 7, 2021 10:36:10 GMT -5
Sparky Lyle for Danny Cater. Probably the worst trade in history. Not even the worst Red Sox trade of that off-season.
They had Yaz in LF, Reggie Smith in CF, and for RF, Rick Miller's rookie season (after a great cup of coffee in '71), Billy Conigliaro, Joe Lahoud, and Ben Oglivie. When Miller got a chance to play regularly in CF in '73, his bat vs. RHP proved to be perfectly OK. He and Billy C would have made a decent RF platoon ... until Dwight Evans started his MLB career in September.
They decided they needed to get a CF and move Smith to RF. WTF? Smith was still a terrific defender in CF, coming off of +21 and +14 R/150 seasons. They had tried the same thing the previous year -- playing Billy C in CF and Smith in RF -- and he'd been +0 in RF (the easier position!) because he's never played there, and they had realized this was wrong and swapped them. Starting August 5th.
The guy they decided to get to play CF was Tommy Harper. WTF? Harper at age 31 had started 87 career games in CF and been slightly below average, but he hadn't played OF regularly in 1969 or 1970 and had been -15 R/150 in LF when he had returned there in 1971. But a scout saw him play and swore he could play CF for the Sox.
The guy they decided to trade for Harper was George Scott, the best defensive 1B of all time. WTF? Harper was a better offensive player at that point, no doubt, but Scott had settled in as a 2.9 - 3.3 bWAR 1B.
Harper was coming of of bWAR seasons of 0.4, 7.4 (one of the all-time fluke years, of course), 0.9. He was three years older than Scott. So what did the Brewers give us to even off the trade?
Umm .. the rest of the trade was Jim Lonborg, Ken Brett, Billy C, Lahoud, and Don Paveltich for Marty Pattin and Lew Krause.
And who was going to play 1B, now? Not Yaz; the whole point of their defensive makeover for 1970 had been to move 3B Scott and 1B Yaz back to their immensely more valuable best positions.
The plan was that Cecil Cooper would jump from AA. Nobody in the organization was aware that he hadn't yet learned to field the position. (He also would have been overmatched at the plate; an 880 OPS in AA doesn't translate to immediate MLB success.)
The Sox discovered in ST that Cooper couldn't play 1B, so they traded Lyle for Danny Cater. No Scott trade, no Lyle trade. I was reading the Globe every day. That was the point of the trade: to fill the hole at 1B.
All of the defensive numbers for the 1972 Sox were crazy bad, including Smith at -6 in RF, suggesting that they had a pitching staff with unusually bad BABIP skill. So maybe Harper wasn't quite as bad as his -24 R/150 in CF.
Cater, of course, was so predictably awful at 1B that Yaz had to move back there in mid-August.
Harper still was a solid offensive player, and Yaz was still a plus fielder in LF, and in 1973 the DH was born. Problem solved! No, of course not. They signed Orlando Cepeda to DH (1.5 bWAR), kept Yaz at 1B, and put Harper in LF. Where he played good defense, ironically, as did Yaz at 1B.
Cepeda, meanwhile, was the foreshadow of their later on-and-off obsession with aging hitters:
1980 Tony Perez, 38, 1B, 0.7 WAR 1981 Perez, 0.4 1984 Bill Buckner, 34, 1B, -0.3 1984 Mike Easler, 33, DH, 3.7 (but traded even-up for John Tudor!)
1985 Buckner, 1.5 1985 Easler, 0.4
1986 Buckner -0.3 1986 Don Baylor, 37, DH, 1.6 1987 Baylor, 0.4
1987 Buckner, -1.4
1991 Jack Clark, 35, DH, 2.3 1992 Clark, 0.0 (320 PA) 1993 Andre Dawson, 38, DH, -0.2 1994 Dawson, -1.1 [Jose Canseco era here! 5.6 WAR over 2 years.]
2000-1 Dante Bichette, 36, DH, 0.8 (1 1/6 seasons) 2002 Rickey Henderson, 43, LF, 0.4 (222 PA)
This is a great one-post theead: guys we’d have been psyched to get about 10 years before we did. I remember getting Clark (who I loved on the Cardinals) and thinking “can they roll that toothpaste tube just a teeeennnsssyy bit further?” (Answer: no).
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Mar 7, 2021 14:19:55 GMT -5
Sparky Lyle for Danny Cater. Probably the worst trade in history. Not even the worst Red Sox trade of that off-season. They had Yaz in LF, Reggie Smith in CF, and for RF, Rick Miller's rookie season (after a great cup of coffee in '71), Billy Conigliaro, Joe Lahoud, and Ben Oglivie. When Miller got a chance to play regularly in CF in '73, his bat vs. RHP proved to be perfectly OK. He and Billy C would have made a decent RF platoon ... until Dwight Evans started his MLB career in September.
They decided they needed to get a CF and move Smith to RF. WTF? Smith was still a terrific defender in CF, coming off of +21 and +14 R/150 seasons. They had tried the same thing the previous year -- playing Billy C in CF and Smith in RF -- and he'd been +0 in RF (the easier position!) because he's never played there, and they had realized this was wrong and swapped them. Starting August 5th. The guy they decided to get to play CF was Tommy Harper. WTF? Harper at age 31 had started 87 career games in CF and been slightly below average, but he hadn't played OF regularly in 1969 or 1970 and had been -15 R/150 in LF when he had returned there in 1971. But a scout saw him play and swore he could play CF for the Sox.
The guy they decided to trade for Harper was George Scott, the best defensive 1B of all time. WTF? Harper was a better offensive player at that point, no doubt, but Scott had settled in as a 2.9 - 3.3 bWAR 1B.
Harper was coming of of bWAR seasons of 0.4, 7.4 (one of the all-time fluke years, of course), 0.9. He was three years older than Scott. So what did the Brewers give us to even off the trade?
Umm .. the rest of the trade was Jim Lonborg, Ken Brett, Billy C, Lahoud, and Don Paveltich for Marty Pattin and Lew Krause. And who was going to play 1B, now? Not Yaz; the whole point of their defensive makeover for 1970 had been to move 3B Scott and 1B Yaz back to their immensely more valuable best positions. The plan was that Cecil Cooper would jump from AA. Nobody in the organization was aware that he hadn't yet learned to field the position. (He also would have been overmatched at the plate; an 880 OPS in AA doesn't translate to immediate MLB success.) The Sox discovered in ST that Cooper couldn't play 1B, so they traded Lyle for Danny Cater. No Scott trade, no Lyle trade. I was reading the Globe every day. That was the point of the trade: to fill the hole at 1B. All of the defensive numbers for the 1972 Sox were crazy bad, including Smith at -6 in RF, suggesting that they had a pitching staff with unusually bad BABIP skill. So maybe Harper wasn't quite as bad as his -24 R/150 in CF.
Cater, of course, was so predictably awful at 1B that Yaz had to move back there in mid-August. Harper still was a solid offensive player, and Yaz was still a plus fielder in LF, and in 1973 the DH was born. Problem solved! No, of course not. They signed Orlando Cepeda to DH (1.5 bWAR), kept Yaz at 1B, and put Harper in LF. Where he played good defense, ironically, as did Yaz at 1B.
Cepeda, meanwhile, was the foreshadow of their later on-and-off obsession with aging hitters: 1980 Tony Perez, 38, 1B, 0.7 WAR 1981 Perez, 0.4 1984 Bill Buckner, 34, 1B, -0.3 1984 Mike Easler, 33, DH, 3.7 (but traded even-up for John Tudor!)
1985 Buckner, 1.5 1985 Easler, 0.4
1986 Buckner -0.3 1986 Don Baylor, 37, DH, 1.6 1987 Baylor, 0.4
1987 Buckner, -1.4
1991 Jack Clark, 35, DH, 2.3 1992 Clark, 0.0 (320 PA) 1993 Andre Dawson, 38, DH, -0.2 1994 Dawson, -1.1 [Jose Canseco era here! 5.6 WAR over 2 years.]
2000-1 Dante Bichette, 36, DH, 0.8 (1 1/6 seasons) 2002 Rickey Henderson, 43, LF, 0.4 (222 PA)
The trade they made bringing back Scott (and Carbo) wound up being worse. The Sox at least did get value out of Carbo and Scott in 1977 but then it was horrendous thereafter as Cecil Cooper blossomed as Brewers 1b. And worse, he killed Red Sox pitching every opportunity he got. The Sox could never get out Cecil Cooper and I remember him as a big part of Harvey's Wallbangers on the 1982 AL Championship team. I can see your point that the original Scott deal opened up that hole which the Sox stupidly tried to fill with Cater. But I do think that the Sox would have dumped Lyle for pennies on the dollar no matter where they sent him. The fact that it was Cater and the Yankees made it worse, but the Sox put themselves in a position of weakness in dealing away Lyle. Again, I don't believe they traded Lyle for baseball on the field related reasons.
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Mar 7, 2021 14:28:28 GMT -5
Funny thing about Schill, is he was like the old style generic pitcher included in the Boddicker deal way back. Pete Ladd, my old buddy from his HaSox days was a "throw in" in the Bob Watson deal to Houston, then moved on to Milwaukee, but the brewers would have had a hard time winning it all in '83 without the terrific season of Sasquatch.. The gentle giant and my old dear friend. I think Ladd was the key guy on the 1982 AL Champion Brewers when Rollie Fingers went down with an injury late in the season and they needed somebody to step forward and fill his big shoes - and Ladd did do that. And he had a strong year as closer for the Brewers in 1983. The Sox got a lot of production out of Bob Watson when they made that deal with Houston. Watson hit great with Boston in that half season of 1979 filling in a huge hole left open by George Scott's decline. I believe the deal was Ladd and Bobby Sprowl (who the Sox were happy to be rid of given what he symbolized). It was a good deal for the Sox in the short term. Long-term Ladd did develop although it was after the Astros compounded their bad deal with Boston trading for some guy named Rickey Keeton in exchange for Ladd who went to the Brew Crew in the deal. So really it was Houston who got ripped off in that deal with the Red Sox for Watson. The Astros got absolutely nothing in the deal for their 1b fixture in Bob Watson who was a really good player. At least the Sox got half a good season out of Watson before he signed with the Yankees for the 1980 and 1981 seasons. And then the one guy with any value they got in the deal (Ladd, who the Astros had in the minors pretty much the whole time he was there), the Astros got nothing out of the deal and they they got ripped off again in dealing Ladd away.
|
|
jimoh
Veteran
Posts: 3,984
|
Post by jimoh on Mar 7, 2021 14:44:28 GMT -5
Drago was solid that year in relief. I know he pitched 3 innings the night before but either him or Willoughby, even with the lefties scheduled, should have pitched the 9th inning of Game 7, 1975. Moret kind of blew Game 7. He came in with a runner on and 1 out in the 7th and the Sox up 3-2 and surrendered the tying run. He kind of shuttled between relief and starting. I think he had a 27-5 record over two consecutive seasons, 74-75. This is my good Roger Moret memory. My good friend in high school invited me to his church youth groups baseball outing to watch a doubleheader in Shea (Yankee stadium being renovated) between Boston and NY. Lee and Moret each pitched complete game shutouts defeating Catfish Hunter and Tippy Martinez 1-0 and 6-0. Lynn made an incredible diving catch in left center to save the shutout in game one. sabr.org/gamesproj/game/july-27-1975-red-sox-double-whitewash-yankees-in-guidrys-debut-game-2/If you are interested, I found Lynn's catch. It's at the 12:00 minute mark of this video. Jim Rice does a nice hurdle to avoid him. I have vivid memories of that doubleheader and the Lynn catch with Rice hurdling him (I was sort of a hurdler). It was hot as Hades that weekend, about 95 back when 95 was unusual. It seemed like that weekend broke the back of the Yankees.
|
|
|
Post by johnsilver52 on Mar 7, 2021 14:52:30 GMT -5
Thought Sprowl was the key piece, blow up and all vs the NYY in his late season start. he was a hyped up kid back then.
Pete and I played old strat-o-matic baseball multiple times during the week before he went to the park, strat-o hockey sometimes also and he had one of those old hockey sets, where have the push-pull rods with players attached on the ends? Pete was the king on that thing!
He drove this blue, Ford panel van. He was the only one among his "roomies" (Richie Gedman, Danny Weppner, Al Nipper) who had wheels, so made a lot of trips. I lived next street over.
Eric,
Think Bob Watson would be an aging slugger. He was well past being a useful position player and let's not Forget orlando Cepeda.
|
|
ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,936
|
Post by ericmvan on Mar 7, 2021 15:39:17 GMT -5
The trade they made bringing back Scott (and Carbo) wound up being worse. The Sox at least did get value out of Carbo and Scott in 1977 but then it was horrendous thereafter as Cecil Cooper blossomed as Brewers 1b. And worse, he killed Red Sox pitching every opportunity he got. The Sox could never get out Cecil Cooper and I remember him as a big part of Harvey's Wallbangers on the 1982 AL Championship team. I can see your point that the original Scott deal opened up that hole which the Sox stupidly tried to fill with Cater. But I do think that the Sox would have dumped Lyle for pennies on the dollar no matter where they sent him. The fact that it was Cater and the Yankees made it worse, but the Sox put themselves in a position of weakness in dealing away Lyle. Again, I don't believe they traded Lyle for baseball on the field related reasons. And obviously, if they don't make the awful trade to get rid of Scott, they can't make the awful trade to bring him back! And both Scott and Cooper have their best years with the Sox instead of the Brewers. I firmly believe that the Lyle trade was on-the-field. The whole story you're citing was not in the contemporary press, where it would have been disguised as Lyle being not a good teammate, etc. In fact, the press coverage matched the Sox thinking: they had nicely filled 1B with a plus defender who had been runner-up to Yaz in 1968 for the batting title, and had finished 10th in the league in 1970. In those four years, Cater had hit .282 and Yaz .283! Cater had outhit Dick Allen, Bobby Bonds, Bobby Murcer, Al Oliver, Willie Stargell, Ted Sizemore, Johnny Bench ...
Now, folks were dimly aware that you had to consider power here, and Cater didn't hit for power and those guys did. But that meant that they were great and he was merely very good. Walks drawn by hitters were either invisible or considered a negative. OBP was entirely unknown unless you had read Earnshaw Cook's Percentage Baseball (I had, in September before the off-season). The notion that you could be in the 76th percentile "as a hitter" (i.e., by BA) and actually be in the 39th percentile as a hitter would have been laughed at. Sheer lunacy. And that ranking (by wRC+) ignores the fact that Cater was 2nd in MLB in GDP in these four years!
That they thought this was a good trade is 100% credible. That the people responsible would later invent the fiction that they had been ordered to trade Lyle is 100% credible. That Tom Yawkey, a guy who was spending huge amounts of money to try to win a championship, would order a valuable player to be traded for pulling a stunt that's a) actually kind of funny, and b) can be rectified -- you just have someone get another cake -- is far less credible.
Bill Lee spills all the dirt he knew of in The Wrong Stuff, and he spends pages on this trade, since the Sox tried to trade him instead of Lyle. He doesn't mention this at all. He does point out that Cliff and Claf, the hugely popular radio show, campaigned hard to get Cater.
It was spin, and you've been spun.
BTW, my criticism of the first Scott trade is not a second-guess. I think it remains the major trade that made me most furious and upset at the time ... the only time I've been angrier was when they gave away Bernie Carbo in '78, one of Zimmer's many dumpings of guys he didn't like personally.
(All of which, BTW, are rationalized with pure fiction in his autobiography, the relevant parts of which I read in the bookstore ... "Fergie Jenkins just couldn't pitch for us" was my favorite. He had 7.0 bWAR in his two seasons with the team. )
|
|
ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,936
|
Post by ericmvan on Mar 7, 2021 15:45:51 GMT -5
This is my good Roger Moret memory. My good friend in high school invited me to his church youth groups baseball outing to watch a doubleheader in Shea (Yankee stadium being renovated) between Boston and NY. Lee and Moret each pitched complete game shutouts defeating Catfish Hunter and Tippy Martinez 1-0 and 6-0. Lynn made an incredible diving catch in left center to save the shutout in game one. sabr.org/gamesproj/game/july-27-1975-red-sox-double-whitewash-yankees-in-guidrys-debut-game-2/If you are interested, I found Lynn's catch. It's at the 12:00 minute mark of this video. Jim Rice does a nice hurdle to avoid him. I have vivid memories of that doubleheader and the Lynn catch with Rice hurdling him (I was sort of a hurdler). It was hot as Hades that weekend, about 95 back when 95 was unusual. It seemed like that weekend broke the back of the Yankees. The video in that clip barely does justice to it. He had to run forever to get to the point where he could dive.
|
|
ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,936
|
Post by ericmvan on Mar 7, 2021 15:57:36 GMT -5
Thought Sprowl was the key piece, blow up and all vs the NYY in his late season start. he was a hyped up kid back then. Pete and I played old strat-o-matic baseball multiple times during the week before he went to the park, strat-o hockey sometimes also and he had one of those old hockey sets, where have the push-pull rods with players attached on the ends? Pete was the king on that thing! He drove this blue, Ford panel van. He was the only one among his "roomies" (Richie Gedman, Danny Weppner, Al Nipper) who had wheels, so made a lot of trips. I lived next street over. Eric, Think Bob Watson would be an aging slugger. He was well past being a useful position player and let's not Forget orlando Cepeda. I left him out of the list because he was just 33 and he was tremendous, and would have been the first entry! But we let him walk in free agency and signed Tony Perez instead. It's quote possible that the success we had with him encouraged the succeeding mistakes.
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Mar 7, 2021 15:59:51 GMT -5
The trade they made bringing back Scott (and Carbo) wound up being worse. The Sox at least did get value out of Carbo and Scott in 1977 but then it was horrendous thereafter as Cecil Cooper blossomed as Brewers 1b. And worse, he killed Red Sox pitching every opportunity he got. The Sox could never get out Cecil Cooper and I remember him as a big part of Harvey's Wallbangers on the 1982 AL Championship team. I can see your point that the original Scott deal opened up that hole which the Sox stupidly tried to fill with Cater. But I do think that the Sox would have dumped Lyle for pennies on the dollar no matter where they sent him. The fact that it was Cater and the Yankees made it worse, but the Sox put themselves in a position of weakness in dealing away Lyle. Again, I don't believe they traded Lyle for baseball on the field related reasons. And obviously, if they don't make the awful trade to get rid of Scott, they can't make the awful trade to bring him back! And both Scott and Cooper have their best years with the Sox instead of the Brewers. I firmly believe that the Lyle trade was on-the-field. The whole story you're citing was not in the contemporary press, where it would have been disguised as Lyle being not a good teammate, etc. In fact, the press coverage matched the Sox thinking: they had nicely filled 1B with a plus defender who had been runner-up to Yaz in 1968 for the batting title, and had finished 10th in the league in 1970. In those four years, Cater had hit .282 and Yaz .283! Cater had outhit Dick Allen, Bobby Bonds, Bobby Murcer, Al Oliver, Willie Stargell, Ted Sizemore, Johnny Bench ...
Now, folks were dimly aware that you had to consider power here, and Cater didn't hit for power and those guys did. But that meant that they were great and he was merely very good. Walks drawn by hitters were either invisible or considered a negative. OBP was entirely unknown unless you had read Earnshaw Cook's Percentage Baseball (I had, in September before the off-season). The notion that you could be in the 76th percentile "as a hitter" (i.e., by BA) and actually be in the 39th percentile as a hitter would have been laughed at. Sheer lunacy. And that ranking (by wRC+) ignores the fact that Cater was 2nd in MLB in GDP in these four years! That they thought this was a good trade is 100% credible. That the people responsible would later invent the fiction that they had been ordered to trade Lyle is 100% credible. That Tom Yawkey, a guy who was spending huge amounts of money to try to win a championship, would order a valuable player to be traded for pulling a stunt that's a) actually kind of funny, and b) can be rectified -- you just have someone get another cake -- is far less credible.
Bill Lee spills all the dirt he knew of in The Wrong Stuff, and he spends pages on this trade, since the Sox tried to trade him instead of Lyle. He doesn't mention this at all. He does point out that Cliff and Claf, the hugely popular radio show, campaigned hard to get Cater. It was spin, and you've been spun. BTW, my criticism of the first Scott trade is not a second-guess. I think it remains the major trade that made me most furious and upset at the time ... the only time I've been angrier was when they gave away Bernie Carbo in '78, one of Zimmer's many dumpings of guys he didn't like personally.
(All of which, BTW, are rationalized with pure fiction in his autobiography, the relevant parts of which I read in the bookstore ... "Fergie Jenkins just couldn't pitch for us" was my favorite. He had 7.0 bWAR in his two seasons with the team. )
Maybe yes and maybe no. You might have been spun yourself. I mentioned the cake story which may or may not be true but I didn't mention other things I read because it would be really inappropriate to mention it. Basically from what I read it angered Jean Yawkey enough to the point she wanted him gone. Again it's speculation that may or may not stand up to scrutiny. Lyle might have crossed a line that she took as offensive. I wish to heck I could make my memory work as well as I wished it did. Because I know this question came up at a SABR meeting where Dick O'Connell was the guest speaker not very long before he passed away. And I felt he gave an honest answer as much as he could and it hinted at reasons other than baseball (without being specific) as to why Cater was dealt. I just wish I could remember it more concretely. I'll facebook somebody else I know went to it and see if he remembers. I mean we're talking 20 plus years ago this talk happened.
|
|
ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,936
|
Post by ericmvan on Mar 7, 2021 21:39:14 GMT -5
And obviously, if they don't make the awful trade to get rid of Scott, they can't make the awful trade to bring him back! And both Scott and Cooper have their best years with the Sox instead of the Brewers. I firmly believe that the Lyle trade was on-the-field. The whole story you're citing was not in the contemporary press, where it would have been disguised as Lyle being not a good teammate, etc. In fact, the press coverage matched the Sox thinking: they had nicely filled 1B with a plus defender who had been runner-up to Yaz in 1968 for the batting title, and had finished 10th in the league in 1970. In those four years, Cater had hit .282 and Yaz .283! Cater had outhit Dick Allen, Bobby Bonds, Bobby Murcer, Al Oliver, Willie Stargell, Ted Sizemore, Johnny Bench ...
Now, folks were dimly aware that you had to consider power here, and Cater didn't hit for power and those guys did. But that meant that they were great and he was merely very good. Walks drawn by hitters were either invisible or considered a negative. OBP was entirely unknown unless you had read Earnshaw Cook's Percentage Baseball (I had, in September before the off-season). The notion that you could be in the 76th percentile "as a hitter" (i.e., by BA) and actually be in the 39th percentile as a hitter would have been laughed at. Sheer lunacy. And that ranking (by wRC+) ignores the fact that Cater was 2nd in MLB in GDP in these four years! That they thought this was a good trade is 100% credible. That the people responsible would later invent the fiction that they had been ordered to trade Lyle is 100% credible. That Tom Yawkey, a guy who was spending huge amounts of money to try to win a championship, would order a valuable player to be traded for pulling a stunt that's a) actually kind of funny, and b) can be rectified -- you just have someone get another cake -- is far less credible.
Bill Lee spills all the dirt he knew of in The Wrong Stuff, and he spends pages on this trade, since the Sox tried to trade him instead of Lyle. He doesn't mention this at all. He does point out that Cliff and Claf, the hugely popular radio show, campaigned hard to get Cater. It was spin, and you've been spun. BTW, my criticism of the first Scott trade is not a second-guess. I think it remains the major trade that made me most furious and upset at the time ... the only time I've been angrier was when they gave away Bernie Carbo in '78, one of Zimmer's many dumpings of guys he didn't like personally.
(All of which, BTW, are rationalized with pure fiction in his autobiography, the relevant parts of which I read in the bookstore ... "Fergie Jenkins just couldn't pitch for us" was my favorite. He had 7.0 bWAR in his two seasons with the team. )
Maybe yes and maybe no. You might have been spun yourself. I mentioned the cake story which may or may not be true but I didn't mention other things I read because it would be really inappropriate to mention it. Basically from what I read it angered Jean Yawkey enough to the point she wanted him gone. Again it's speculation that may or may not stand up to scrutiny. Lyle might have crossed a line that she took as offensive. I wish to heck I could make my memory work as well as I wished it did. Because I know this question came up at a SABR meeting where Dick O'Connell was the guest speaker not very long before he passed away. And I felt he gave an honest answer as much as he could and it hinted at reasons other than baseball (without being specific) as to why Cater was dealt. I just wish I could remember it more concretely. I'll facebook somebody else I know went to it and see if he remembers. I mean we're talking 20 plus years ago this talk happened. It is true that Bill Lee is sure that the Sox offered him for Cater, and the Yankees insisted on Lyle.
BTW, now that I hear that O'Connell's story is 30 years after the events, it's very easy to create a version that includes all of these facts, and then some. O'Connell knows that Jean Yawkey hates Lyle and wishes he were gone. When the Yankees insist on him instead of Lee, he knows it may be an overpay, but it does satisfy Jean's wishes and it never hurts to be viewed favorably by ownership. IOW, it's not the rationale for the trade, it's the X factor that's the tipping point.
Half a year later when it's clear the trade was awful, O'Connell realizes that if he thought it was maybe an overpay, he should have asked for a minor league player of some interest. And now he's striking a deal to purchase exactly that, Mario Guerrero, from the Yankees. Maybe he even tells Lee McPhail that getting rid of a player disliked by ownership was part of his rationale, when he asks him if the Yankees are willing to pretend that the purchase is also a PTBNL for the Lyle trade. "I mean, you and I both know that I should have asked for one in the first place."
The transformation of the final deciding extra factor into the entire rationale is exactly the sort of thing the brain does in rewriting memories. O'Connell had this brutal two years (the year before including prematurely moving Rico Petrocelli to 3B in order to install the corpse of Luis Aparicio) but he had made one great move after another in building the '67 Sox. He appears to be the guy who hired Neil Mahoney as scouting director in 1961 (in his first stint at GM), and Mahoney was as good as you can get. He was GM through the end of '77. He thinks of himself as having been good at his job, because for the most part he was. It's natural for the brain to shape his memories to be consistent with that self-image.
BTW, there's a common thread to a bunch of his bad moves ... Aparicio was coming off a fluke great season, Harper was one year removed from one, and the key player in the Scott trade, Lew Krause, was coming off of one. That weakness, plus the general ignorance of the day, can explain all of his blunders, I bet.
|
|
|