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6/28-7/1 Red Sox vs. Royals Series Thread
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Post by beasleyrockah on Jul 2, 2021 14:59:57 GMT -5
I think people overlook how important it is for a new GM to properly evaluate the talent he inherits. For example, Bloom identified Price and Benintendi as guys to move, even if fans felt like it was selling low on those players. He could've ate money and dealt JDM and Eovaldi to increase payroll flexibility but he held onto them. He let JBJ walk, and that has worked out. Imagine a scenario where he attached Eovaldi's deal to Mookie instead of Price.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 2, 2021 15:01:48 GMT -5
While I certainly won't argue that Andriese's pitching hasn't been good, and who knows what happens without him, he did teach Whitlock the changeup and that has been (and should continue to be) extremely valuable for the team. Moreso than any negative Andriese adds this year. Also hard to just discount the Ottavino pickup because he has been good historically, clearly other teams weren't willing to take him or Cashman would have given the prospect to anyone else, and he's 7 figures not 8 as you mentioned. Also while it's totally fair for you to push back against Bloom being "heroic" all your posts about him feel almost like you're rooting against him, or are looking for the negative in each acquisition. On Cora for example, maybe it's not about being genius or not genius, but it took some guts because if it didn't work out that makes him a real easy target. You also stipulate not talking about future potential in the Benny deal while in the same post casting dispersions on the Hernandez trade which was purely about future potential (for a reliever who BTW was by far the worst on the team last year by WPA, and this year would be the worst outside of Andriese). I’m not rooting against anyone. I can see how it looks that way, because generally I don’t see any reason to add to love-trains and save most of my comments for times I think the consensus goes too far. So I credit the Whitlock move and leave it at that. Not because I don’t see it as great, but because everyone has pretty much said what needs to be said. I was an enthusiastic supporter of the Ottavino trade from the word go. But, again, after saying I thought it was a good move, I have not seen a reason to re-congratulate anyone for it. So the bulk of my comments are of “but….” variety. It doesn’t mean I don’t want them to win. I just feel like their success is far more the residue of multiple previous GMs. That isn’t even to say Bloom might not build a lasting winner. Who knows? But I am not as fired up about the longterm projection of the bulk of prospects he’s acquired as others are. Again, who knows? But when Incandeza says Bloom values prospect quantity, I shudder. Personally, I value major leaguers. If you get boatloads of prospects and none make it, how is that a win? Again… who knows? But I don’t credit a guy who trades real major leaguers for prospects *until those guys pan out* — because trading an actual starting player just for quantity is not hard in baseball. Making the quantity count is hard. Going by your standards what GM should get credit? Want to credit Dombrowski for 2018? Well, it was Cherington's farm guys who either developed or Dombrowski traded. He used big bucks for Price and JDM. Dombrowski finished the puzzle that Cherington started but couldnt complete. Likewise, now with Bloom finishing what Dombrowski couldnt within the framework of the luxury tax limits while strengthening the minor league depth. Same argument tha used to be said about Theo when others pointed out Duquette's core players he inherited All of this shows that there was a good reason why these GMs wew hired and a good reason they were let go.
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Post by manfred on Jul 2, 2021 15:16:59 GMT -5
I’m not rooting against anyone. I can see how it looks that way, because generally I don’t see any reason to add to love-trains and save most of my comments for times I think the consensus goes too far. So I credit the Whitlock move and leave it at that. Not because I don’t see it as great, but because everyone has pretty much said what needs to be said. I was an enthusiastic supporter of the Ottavino trade from the word go. But, again, after saying I thought it was a good move, I have not seen a reason to re-congratulate anyone for it. So the bulk of my comments are of “but….” variety. It doesn’t mean I don’t want them to win. I just feel like their success is far more the residue of multiple previous GMs. That isn’t even to say Bloom might not build a lasting winner. Who knows? But I am not as fired up about the longterm projection of the bulk of prospects he’s acquired as others are. Again, who knows? But when Incandeza says Bloom values prospect quantity, I shudder. Personally, I value major leaguers. If you get boatloads of prospects and none make it, how is that a win? Again… who knows? But I don’t credit a guy who trades real major leaguers for prospects *until those guys pan out* — because trading an actual starting player just for quantity is not hard in baseball. Making the quantity count is hard. Going by your standards what GM should get credit? Want to credit Dombrowski for 2018? Well, it was Cherington's farm guys who either developed or Dombrowski traded. He used big bucks for Price and JDM. Dombrowski finished the puzzle that Cherington started but couldnt complete. Likewise, now with Bloom finishing what Dombrowski couldnt within the framework of the luxury tax limits while strengthening the minor league depth. Same argument tha used to be said about Theo when others pointed out Duquette's core players he inherited All of this shows that there was a good reason why these GMs wew hired and a good reason they were let go. But I am crediting. I’m just not calling his work a “masterclass.” I think Dombrowski did a good job. He also made colossal blunders. Cherington is probably the weakest of the bunch, but he did a lot of great things, too. I think the thing is… I totally agree with what you are saying. It is tough to call a guy a “master,” “genius,” etc. when it is a part of a long chain most of which precedes him.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 2, 2021 15:26:14 GMT -5
Going by your standards what GM should get credit? Want to credit Dombrowski for 2018? Well, it was Cherington's farm guys who either developed or Dombrowski traded. He used big bucks for Price and JDM. Dombrowski finished the puzzle that Cherington started but couldnt complete. Likewise, now with Bloom finishing what Dombrowski couldnt within the framework of the luxury tax limits while strengthening the minor league depth. Same argument tha used to be said about Theo when others pointed out Duquette's core players he inherited All of this shows that there was a good reason why these GMs wew hired and a good reason they were let go. But I am crediting. I’m just not calling his work a “masterclass.” I think Dombrowski did a good job. He also made colossal blunders. Cherington is probably the weakest of the bunch, but he did a lot of great things, too. I think the thing is… I totally agree with what you are saying. It is tough to call a guy a “master,” “genius,” etc. when it is a part of a long chain most of which precedes him. Fair enough. What Bloom has done is give me confidence that he can accomplish his real goal which is a sustainable winner, not something I really see with this club which I wouldn't be surprised to take a step back next year. I believe what he is trying to accomplish is still a few years off and I think that's what he thinks as well. And 2021 comes off more impressive to me than you because you saw an 87 win team as to where I saw a 79 win team so beyond a handful of pythagorean luck I am more impressed to how the rest of the club has filled out compared to last season when they had the same core and were awful.
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shagworthy
Veteran
My neckbeard game is on point.
Posts: 1,527
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Post by shagworthy on Jul 2, 2021 15:40:56 GMT -5
Going by your standards what GM should get credit? Want to credit Dombrowski for 2018? Well, it was Cherington's farm guys who either developed or Dombrowski traded. He used big bucks for Price and JDM. Dombrowski finished the puzzle that Cherington started but couldnt complete. Likewise, now with Bloom finishing what Dombrowski couldnt within the framework of the luxury tax limits while strengthening the minor league depth. Same argument tha used to be said about Theo when others pointed out Duquette's core players he inherited All of this shows that there was a good reason why these GMs wew hired and a good reason they were let go. But I am crediting. I’m just not calling his work a “masterclass.” I think Dombrowski did a good job. He also made colossal blunders. Cherington is probably the weakest of the bunch, but he did a lot of great things, too. I think the thing is… I totally agree with what you are saying. It is tough to call a guy a “master,” “genius,” etc. when it is a part of a long chain most of which precedes him. Wow, someone uses the word "masterclass" and we all collectively loose our minds for a few hours. Perhaps masterclass was a stretch. There is a balance I believe that needs to be maintained for long term success, and I think Bloom has done a good job walking that tight rope. Manfred, usually you and I share the same show-me skepticism, but I disagree with you on the only thing that is important is the major league roster/players, especially with the luxury tax working as an effective cap for the teams willing to spend. If this was 1985 and no such barriers were in place, then yea, spend all the money, get all the best players, but the teams that have long term success in this era (Dodgers, Rays, St. Louis, Astros) all have both depth at the major league level, and guys in the minors ready to take their place when their contracts become too bloated. It's premature to judge the totality of Blooms moves minor league wise, but the farm system sure looks better now than it did say 18 months ago. He's added volume, and while that may make you gag, minor league baseball is a volume game, the only way you beat the odds is to stack the deck. On the major league side, he's filled in gaps with players who have helped this team win 51 games. He's spotted a few diamonds in the rough (Arroyo, Renfroe, Whitlock) added Otto, got Pivetta and Seibold for Workman and Hembree (a real steal if you ask me) and he missed on some guys but I don't think the jury is yet out on Franchy, and we can debate whether Kluber is better but at least Richards is still able to take the mound, even if we don't want him to. All I know is this, in March, if you told me this rag-tag group of players would have 51 wins I would have asked you for your dealers phone number. Coming into spring, we didn't know what to make of JDM (he recovered nicely), we didn't know how bad we'd miss JBJ's outfield defense (we haven't missed it that much), and even routinely playing guys like Dalbec, Marwin, and Santana hasn't taken the air out of our sails. We essentially started the season like the 2014 I'm the ace t-shirt team, and somehow pulled it off! So I will give credit to both Bloom and Cora. Whatever they've done so far has worked spectacularly from my vantage point, and bonus, they've set themselves up to make the future bright as well.
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Post by ematz1423 on Jul 2, 2021 15:41:15 GMT -5
But I am crediting. I’m just not calling his work a “masterclass.” I think Dombrowski did a good job. He also made colossal blunders. Cherington is probably the weakest of the bunch, but he did a lot of great things, too. I think the thing is… I totally agree with what you are saying. It is tough to call a guy a “master,” “genius,” etc. when it is a part of a long chain most of which precedes him. Fair enough. What Bloom has done is give me confidence that he can accomplish his real goal which is a sustainable winner, not something I really see with this club which I wouldn't be surprised to take a step back next year. I believe what he is trying to accomplish is still a few years off and I think that's what he thinks as well. And 2021 comes off more impressive to me than you because you saw an 87 win team as to where I saw a 79 win team so beyond a handful of pythagorean luck I am more impressed to how the rest of the club has filled out compared to last season when they had the same core and were awful. I'm very happy with the job bloom has done so far no doubt about it. We know he can fill the fringes of the roster and build depth which is what sustained success needs in mlb since the season is such a grind. Now the question turns to what does he do in terms of the stars. I have no reason to think he's not going to spend money but we have yet to see him do it because he's been handcuffed in terms of payroll flexibility. I'm very interested to see how he handles it though.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Jul 2, 2021 17:04:51 GMT -5
I'm really into definitions: what's a star? Martinez last year? Renfroe this one? Tampa has exposed the star system as being more than a little overrated. For me, the idea is to construct a winning team any way you can. Bloom has done that in spades so far.
They had an offense already. They now have a roster with passable starting pitching as opposed to last year's which was stuffed with lemons. That was badly needed. And the pen has been outstanding. That's the Rays' MO and now it's Boston's. Barnes has graduated to be a valued closer, Taylor is as good as his 2019 season indicated he could be. Getting Ottovino was a stellar move, and Whitlock has wildly out-performed even the most optimistic expectations. Even minor moves like getting Valdez brought wins to the team. The tactical moves have been right in line with the strategic intent - the marching orders he was given. The goals of competing and building out a farm system now look to both be reachable.
But the place where he deserves the most credit is one he won't ever tout but which laid the ground work. Last year was the perfect time to swallow hard and take a hit while collecting assets and building up draft capital. That alone marks him as a someone with the smarts to get on the difficult path to success, rebuilding on the fly. This guy knows what he's doing.
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shagworthy
Veteran
My neckbeard game is on point.
Posts: 1,527
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Post by shagworthy on Jul 2, 2021 17:59:01 GMT -5
I'm really into definitions: what's a star? Martinez last year? Renfroe this one? Tampa has exposed the star system as being more than a little overrated. For me, the idea is to construct a winning team any way you can. Bloom has done that in spades so far. They had an offense already. They now have a roster with passable starting pitching as opposed to last year's which was stuffed with lemons. That was badly needed. And the pen has been outstanding. That's the Rays' MO and now it's Boston's. Barnes has graduated to be a valued closer, Taylor is as good as his 2019 season indicated he could be. Getting Ottovino was a stellar move, and Whitlock has wildly out-performed even the most optimistic expectations. Even minor moves like getting Valdez brought wins to the team. The tactical moves have been right in line with the strategic intent - the marching orders he was given. The goals of competing and building out a farm system now look to both be reachable. But the place where he deserves the most credit is one he won't ever tout but which laid the ground work. Last year was the perfect time to swallow hard and take a hit while collecting assets and building up draft capital. That alone marks him as a someone with the smarts to get on the difficult path to success, rebuilding on the fly. This guy knows what he's doing. The other thing I'd like to point out is failure is inevitable to a degree. Is every move going to return dividends every time? No. But even guys who I think we would classify as toeing the line of failure didn't cost us that much. We're not looking at Hanley and Panda or the egregious overpay of Price. We're looking at Santana, Kiki to some extent, Marwin (at least offensively, but I think his defence, both versatility and skill make up for him), Dalbec, and Richards, the cool thing about almost all of them is they are easily replaceable and we aren't financially stuck with them. If Richards turns into a pumpkin, jettison him in the offseason, Santana has been begging for a DFA before the Royals came to town, Dalbec can be optioned back to the minors, Kiki could be platooned as can Marwin, but I think their veteran presence provides intangibles.
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Post by ematz1423 on Jul 2, 2021 18:14:13 GMT -5
I'm really into definitions: what's a star? Martinez last year? Renfroe this one? Tampa has exposed the star system as being more than a little overrated. For me, the idea is to construct a winning team any way you can. Bloom has done that in spades so far. They had an offense already. They now have a roster with passable starting pitching as opposed to last year's which was stuffed with lemons. That was badly needed. And the pen has been outstanding. That's the Rays' MO and now it's Boston's. Barnes has graduated to be a valued closer, Taylor is as good as his 2019 season indicated he could be. Getting Ottovino was a stellar move, and Whitlock has wildly out-performed even the most optimistic expectations. Even minor moves like getting Valdez brought wins to the team. The tactical moves have been right in line with the strategic intent - the marching orders he was given. The goals of competing and building out a farm system now look to both be reachable. But the place where he deserves the most credit is one he won't ever tout but which laid the ground work. Last year was the perfect time to swallow hard and take a hit while collecting assets and building up draft capital. That alone marks him as a someone with the smarts to get on the difficult path to success, rebuilding on the fly. This guy knows what he's doing. I completely agree with almost everything you are saying. My main thought is just wondering how he's going to handle impending free agency of Xandy and Devers which I should have voiced rather than just alude to "stars". Also not in terms of xandy and devers how will he use payroll flexibility? Will he go out and try and get guys in the future like a Soto or will he think big contracts aren't the way to go. All I'm saying is we really don't know yet how he's going to handle the full freedom of the Red sox spending might. I have no reason to doubt him though and I'm interested to see what they look like in a few years when it's all guys he brought or decided to pay up and retain rather than mostly left over from previous regime.
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