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Post by malynn19 on Sept 2, 2021 16:14:01 GMT -5
I am just waiting for Keith Law's top 100, to see if Yorke gets in and Law takes back all that crap he said about him.
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Post by ramireja on Sept 2, 2021 17:48:48 GMT -5
Oh I have no doubt that stubborn Keith will be the last to do so if he ever does. I can see him leaning into a "yeah the hit tool is nice, but there aren't enough secondary skills to profile for more than a 45 for me" take.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 2, 2021 20:30:24 GMT -5
Oh I have no doubt that stubborn Keith will be the last to do so if he ever does. I can see him leaning into a "yeah the hit tool is nice, but there aren't enough secondary skills to profile for more than a 45 for me" take. Hit tool is worth about 3 tools.
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Keith Law
Sept 3, 2021 6:07:06 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by unitspin on Sept 3, 2021 6:07:06 GMT -5
Oh I have no doubt that stubborn Keith will be the last to do so if he ever does. I can see him leaning into a "yeah the hit tool is nice, but there aren't enough secondary skills to profile for more than a 45 for me" take. Hit tool is worth about 3 tools. Lol he might have lost all credibility after that one.
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Post by James Dunne on Sept 3, 2021 6:58:15 GMT -5
Oh I have no doubt that stubborn Keith will be the last to do so if he ever does. I can see him leaning into a "yeah the hit tool is nice, but there aren't enough secondary skills to profile for more than a 45 for me" take. It is funny because someone did bring up the Madrigal comparison in the chat a few weeks ago. So at least that would be consistent!
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jimoh
Veteran
Posts: 3,984
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Post by jimoh on Sept 4, 2021 10:54:41 GMT -5
Oh I have no doubt that stubborn Keith will be the last to do so if he ever does. I can see him leaning into a "yeah the hit tool is nice, but there aren't enough secondary skills to profile for more than a 45 for me" take. In a chat on 9/3 Keith Law actually now offers a reasonable comment about Yorke: Joe: Nick Yorke’s bat seems to be living up to the Sox expectations. Have you heard any reports on his defense? Ave glove at 2B, below average, but playable or maybe a LF but the bat will probably play? Keith Law: Heard raves on the bat and maybe 45 defense at second. More than playable as long as he hits like this. Maybe he was just underscouted because of the pandemic – I have still never seen him.
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Post by chr31ter on Sept 4, 2021 11:17:01 GMT -5
I have still never seen him. Oh.
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Keith Law
Sept 4, 2021 11:37:46 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by soxinsf on Sept 4, 2021 11:37:46 GMT -5
I have not seen him either. But I live about half an hour from where he grew up so I claim him anyhow. We are practically neighbors.
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Post by ramireja on Sept 4, 2021 14:55:15 GMT -5
For the record, this was not my quote. Glad to see Keith is coming around to a more reasonable take, although folks were throwing around the "Yorke had been underscouted" narrative from the beginning while Keith blasted the pick. There's a reason teams don't draft HS second baseman in the first round he said...
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Sept 4, 2021 21:41:47 GMT -5
No analyst/evaluator has seen everybody ranked. none, zero, nada. They rely on contacts.
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Post by chr31ter on Sept 5, 2021 10:59:23 GMT -5
No analyst/evaluator has seen everybody ranked. none, zero, nada. They rely on contacts. Understood. But in light of the fact that Law has never seen Yorke play, his criticism of the pick at the time seems wildly overboard.
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Post by jmei on Sept 5, 2021 14:03:25 GMT -5
None of the national outlets really see any draftees in person, especially the high school guys. For draft rankings, it’s all about your network.
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Post by incandenza on Sept 5, 2021 16:59:37 GMT -5
No analyst/evaluator has seen everybody ranked. none, zero, nada. They rely on contacts. Understood. But in light of the fact that Law has never seen Yorke play, his criticism of the pick at the time seems wildly overboard. Yeah, he could've gone with "Huh, surprising pick, wonder what they see in him," rather than "Red Sox went against the consensus and that makes them DUMB."
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mobaz
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Posts: 2,781
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Post by mobaz on Sept 5, 2021 17:37:08 GMT -5
Understood. But in light of the fact that Law has never seen Yorke play, his criticism of the pick at the time seems wildly overboard. Yeah, he could've gone with "Huh, surprising pick, wonder what they see in him," rather than "Red Sox went against the consensus and that makes them DUMB." And tripling down after One Week of pro ball
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radiohix
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'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
Posts: 6,345
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Post by radiohix on Sept 5, 2021 17:51:56 GMT -5
Yeah, he could've gone with "Huh, surprising pick, wonder what they see in him," rather than "Red Sox went against the consensus and that makes them DUMB." And tripling down after One Week of pro ball This. He said in a Draft chat, when asked if the Sox would go underslot with the 4th pick and spread the money in the later rounds, "I don't think they will since the Yorke pick backfired and he's struggling mightily in Low-A". Garbage take.
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Post by manfred on Sept 5, 2021 18:58:06 GMT -5
This seems partly an inability simply to say “I don’t know.” I guess sports reporters don’t get paid to say that, but if you haven’t seen a guy and he’s barely played (at that point), nothing wrong with taking a pass on assessing him.
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Post by jaffinator on Sept 5, 2021 19:55:58 GMT -5
This seems partly an inability simply to say “I don’t know.” I guess sports reporters don’t get paid to say that, but if you haven’t seen a guy and he’s barely played (at that point), nothing wrong with taking a pass on assessing him. Completely agreed. The rational integration of uncertainty is maybe the most important part of any modeling exercise, but it's been completely eliminated from so much discourse. I think part of it in this case is that prospect talk walks an occasionally awkward path between a "pure predictive exercise" and being entertainment.
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Post by patford on Sept 5, 2021 21:31:00 GMT -5
This seems partly an inability simply to say “I don’t know.” I guess sports reporters don’t get paid to say that, but if you haven’t seen a guy and he’s barely played (at that point), nothing wrong with taking a pass on assessing him. I think it comes from Law being full of himself...or something.
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jimoh
Veteran
Posts: 3,984
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Post by jimoh on Sept 6, 2021 5:32:39 GMT -5
Oh I have no doubt that stubborn Keith will be the last to do so if he ever does. I can see him leaning into a "yeah the hit tool is nice, but there aren't enough secondary skills to profile for more than a 45 for me" take. In a chat on 9/3 Keith Law actually now offers a reasonable comment about Yorke: Joe: Nick Yorke’s bat seems to be living up to the Sox expectations. Have you heard any reports on his defense? Ave glove at 2B, below average, but playable or maybe a LF but the bat will probably play? Keith Law: Heard raves on the bat and maybe 45 defense at second. More than playable as long as he hits like this. Maybe he was just underscouted because of the pandemic – I have still never seen him. So, lots of predictions that Law will never change his mind on Yorke, then when he does lots of people going back to cut and paste earlier quotes to revel in your superiority rather than focus on what he's saying now?
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art
Veteran
Posts: 338
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Post by art on Sept 6, 2021 7:32:35 GMT -5
In a chat on 9/3 Keith Law actually now offers a reasonable comment about Yorke: Joe: Nick Yorke’s bat seems to be living up to the Sox expectations. Have you heard any reports on his defense? Ave glove at 2B, below average, but playable or maybe a LF but the bat will probably play? Keith Law: Heard raves on the bat and maybe 45 defense at second. More than playable as long as he hits like this. Maybe he was just underscouted because of the pandemic – I have still never seen him. So, lots of predictions that Law will never change his mind on Yorke, then when he does lots of people going back to cut and paste earlier quotes to revel in your superiority rather than focus on what he's saying now? I didn't see any such "predictions" in this thread. Just comments on the shaky basis for his former opinions.
Correction: Sorry, I now see that there was at least one such comment. Didn't look back far enough.
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jimoh
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Posts: 3,984
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Post by jimoh on Sept 6, 2021 8:58:43 GMT -5
So, lots of predictions that Law will never change his mind on Yorke, then when he does lots of people going back to cut and paste earlier quotes to revel in your superiority rather than focus on what he's saying now? I didn't see any such "predictions" in this thread. Just comments on the shaky basis for his former opinions.
Correction: Sorry, I now see that there was at least one such comment. Didn't look back far enough.
Thanks, and I should have noted that there were also people who said "good to see Keith coming around"
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Post by patford on Sept 6, 2021 9:40:39 GMT -5
I didn't see any such "predictions" in this thread. Just comments on the shaky basis for his former opinions.
Correction: Sorry, I now see that there was at least one such comment. Didn't look back far enough.
Thanks, and I should have noted that there were also people who said "good to see Keith coming around" People are knocking him because of his severe judgments without ever having seen Yorke. This was both at the time of the pick and after Yorke's 1st week in A ball. It's hard to believe any scout would be so foolish as to use a one week sample size to pat their own back for having been "right."
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jimoh
Veteran
Posts: 3,984
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Post by jimoh on Sept 6, 2021 9:54:21 GMT -5
I don't get the problem with "severe judgments without ever having seen Yorke." There are hundreds, thousands of prospects that people have not seen personally and yet they trust someone else's opinion that "X should go no higher than the third round" and "Y sounds like a fifth rounder." Now Law has still not seen Yorke and he reports that he has heard raves about his offense and at least a 45 for his defense. A "no comments until you've seen someone" rule would be pretty silly. And one or two looks are not always reliable.
The off the cuff comment about Yorke's start in a chat was pretty dumb, but pretty minor.
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Keith Law
Sept 6, 2021 9:58:00 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by manfred on Sept 6, 2021 9:58:00 GMT -5
I don't get the problem with "severe judgments without ever having seen Yorke." There are hundreds, thousands of prospects that people have not seen personally and yet they trust someone else's opinion that "X should go no higher than the third round" and "Y sounds like a fifth rounder." Now Law has still not seen Yorke and he reports that he has heard raves about his offense and at least a 45 for his defense. A "no comments until you've seen someone" rule would be pretty silly. And one or two looks are not always reliable. The off the cuff comment about Yorke's start in a chat was pretty dumb, but pretty minor. This is true, but it would be nice to admit you haven’t seen a guy. Cite your sources. In Yorke’s case, it seems like part of the issue is he was unseen generally… that there just wasn’t a lot of data.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Sept 6, 2021 10:01:58 GMT -5
My problem with the original Law comment wasn't so much the Yorke eval after one week but the fact that (a) he was completely wrong about what their "strategy" was last year, and worse, (b) the idea that a team was going to shift their entire draft strategy this year after a one-week sample size of one player. That was the asinine part.
As many have said, the national guys HAVE to evaluate players without having seen them. It goes without saying.
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