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MLB secretly used 2 different types of baseballs last season
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Post by grandsalami on Nov 30, 2021 15:35:46 GMT -5
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Post by ematz1423 on Nov 30, 2021 16:40:47 GMT -5
Why does the MLB continually do stupid things it seems? There's absolutely no reason for this type of stuff.
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Post by prospectlove on Nov 30, 2021 17:02:54 GMT -5
Could this simply have to do with the league needing to "use up" their allotment of old baseballs?? Not the best look at all, especially coming into a contract negotiation, however all owners and management think of baseball as a business. It would make business sense to use up the inventory if that inventory cost several thousand dollars. Again, could be a small explanation. The only other one is because they wanted to "study" the differences and see if the ball was making a difference.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Nov 30, 2021 18:46:43 GMT -5
The relevant quote, I believe, is from the unnamed player:
MLB could have simply stated, up front, that they would be transitioning to the Lighter ball over time, and then worked to make that transition as consistent as possible for all the teams. Not doing that once again casts the owners as largely ignorant and/or inconsiderate about the concerns of the players and the fans. As has been the case for decades, they continue to use the construction of the ball as one more way to manipulate the game. But now it's happening at internet speed, with year over year changes that render the performance metrics somewhat meaningless. Someone is going to try to figure out if there were significant differences in the way those balls were distributed to teams. Is that sort of inquiry what MLB and the owners want?
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Post by greenmonster on Nov 30, 2021 20:34:32 GMT -5
The relevant quote, I believe, is from the unnamed player: MLB could have simply stated, up front, that they would be transitioning to the Lighter ball over time, and then worked to make that transition as consistent as possible for all the teams. Not doing that once again casts the owners as largely ignorant and/or inconsiderate about the concerns of the players and the fans. As has been the case for decades, they continue to use the construction of the ball as one more way to manipulate the game. But now it's happening at internet speed, with year over year changes that render the performance metrics somewhat meaningless. S omeone is going to try to figure out if there were significant differences in the way those balls were distributed to teams. Is that sort of inquiry what MLB and the owners want? That is exactly where my head went....Did MLB manipulate teams success/failure by the balls that were prevalent at their respective games? Did umpires know which balls they were putting into play? Where games played with the same ball for both teams? This is complete bull$hit. We can't believe anything anymore |
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 1, 2021 11:08:36 GMT -5
This is just blatant manipulation of the sport and I'm outraged at it. I have suspected this has been going on for years. It's like finding out that conspiracies are real and nothing you see is.
Can't wait until there's a team under .500 that wins the championship, so that fans finally see how stupid MLB is with all of this crap designed only to extract more money from fans while the actual quality of the game is never considered at all. They sit in a room and say "How can we manipulate outcomes to manipulate the most fans' interest?"
This has been going on in all sports for quite awhile now. I'm not nearly as invested anymore.
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Post by jkfer98 on Dec 1, 2021 11:14:25 GMT -5
Bad and unnecessary. The Commissioner's Offices seems to lose more and more trust among players and fans year after year.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 1, 2021 11:19:05 GMT -5
Bad and unnecessary. The Commissioner's Offices seems to lose more and more trust among players and fans year after year. What can you expect from a commissioner who refers to the World Series trophy as a piece of metal? |
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Dec 1, 2021 12:56:36 GMT -5
It's a non-story for me.
Obviously, covid messed with a lot of production and supply chain issues (and still does) and they had to mix old and new ones to have enough for the season. Changing between production of the two different kinds is likely down to the availability of materials that are used for each one.
Both balls met agreed upon specs and both teams in any given game use the same balls.
I can't get into any of the conspiracy theory b.s.
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Post by ematz1423 on Dec 1, 2021 13:00:43 GMT -5
It's a non-story for me. Obviously, covid messed with a lot of production and supply chain issues (and still does) and they had to mix old and new ones to have enough for the season. Changing between production of the two different kinds is likely down to the availability of materials that are used for each one. Both balls met agreed upon specs and both teams in any given game use the same balls. I can't get into any of the conspiracy theory b.s. It's probably going to end up a non story but if it's found out the mlb was picking and choosing what games to use specific ball types to than its a whole different animal. We'll probably never find out though. If nothing else it is incredibly stupid of them to not be transparent about it and adds to the growing list of dumb things MLB keeps doing that aren't necessary. |
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 1, 2021 13:02:59 GMT -5
It's a non-story for me. Obviously, covid messed with a lot of production and supply chain issues (and still does) and they had to mix old and new ones to have enough for the season. Changing between production of the two different kinds is likely down to the availability of materials that are used for each one. Both balls met agreed upon specs and both teams in any given game use the same balls. I can't get into any of the conspiracy theory b.s. The covid argument is absurd. Perhaps you missed this part: Clearly, they purposefully were producing both types of balls for some reason that people should be speculating on since they will never be able to explain rationally or honestly. I really hope that gambling billionaires go after MLB. Then again, they are probably in on it and Pete Rose still isn't in the Hall of Fame. |
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Dec 1, 2021 13:44:22 GMT -5
It's still all conspiracy theories to me.
And no, I didn't miss that part. My guess is that the change from one ball to the other involved a lot more than just removing a few grams of twine and that the materials used to make the heavier ball were probably more available (after all it was the established model), whether because they had a bunch leftover in stock or due to supply-chain or other issues, and they went back to those because they wanted to make sure they didn't run out of balls. After all, they certainly sell more baseballs to the general public than they use in actual MLB games.
They probably also needed to design new machines to make the new balls on and maybe there was a problem with those. There's a lot of perfectly boring explanations.
If that's a reach, it's not nearly as big a reach as all this "they supplied specific balls to specific games to control the outcomes." Really? So they really wanted HOU back in the WS again? Against ATL?? When they had the chance to pick BOS vs. LAD?? It just doesn't pass the smell test.
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Post by ematz1423 on Dec 1, 2021 13:52:57 GMT -5
It's still all conspiracy theories to me. And no, I didn't miss that part. My guess is that the change from one ball to the other involved a lot more than just removing a few grams of twine and that the materials used to make the heavier ball were probably more available (after all it was the established model), whether because they had a bunch leftover in stock or due to supply-chain or other issues, and they went back to those because they wanted to make sure they didn't run out of balls. After all, they certainly sell more baseballs to the general public than they use in actual MLB games. They probably also needed to design new machines to make the new balls on and maybe there was a problem with those. There's a lot of perfectly boring explanations. If that's a reach, it's not nearly as big a reach as all this "they supplied specific balls to specific games to control the outcomes." Really? So they really wanted HOU back in the WS again? Against ATL?? When they had the chance to pick BOS vs. LAD?? It just doesn't pass the smell test. It's not a conspiracy theory though there's proof the MLB for whatever reason decided to use two different balls and for whatever stupid reason weren't transparent about it. |
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 1, 2021 14:03:22 GMT -5
It's still all conspiracy theories to me. And no, I didn't miss that part. My guess is that the change from one ball to the other involved a lot more than just removing a few grams of twine and that the materials used to make the heavier ball were probably more available (after all it was the established model), whether because they had a bunch leftover in stock or due to supply-chain or other issues, and they went back to those because they wanted to make sure they didn't run out of balls. After all, they certainly sell more baseballs to the general public than they use in actual MLB games. They probably also needed to design new machines to make the new balls on and maybe there was a problem with those. There's a lot of perfectly boring explanations. If that's a reach, it's not nearly as big a reach as all this "they supplied specific balls to specific games to control the outcomes." Really? So they really wanted HOU back in the WS again? Against ATL?? When they had the chance to pick BOS vs. LAD?? It just doesn't pass the smell test. "It switched back to making the old ball in January 2020" You are filling in explanations that fit what you want to believe rather than reading exactly what is written. If you do not believe what is in the article, that's you calling the person who scientifically explained everything without motive a liar. |
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Dec 1, 2021 14:57:43 GMT -5
It's still all conspiracy theories to me. And no, I didn't miss that part. My guess is that the change from one ball to the other involved a lot more than just removing a few grams of twine and that the materials used to make the heavier ball were probably more available (after all it was the established model), whether because they had a bunch leftover in stock or due to supply-chain or other issues, and they went back to those because they wanted to make sure they didn't run out of balls. After all, they certainly sell more baseballs to the general public than they use in actual MLB games. They probably also needed to design new machines to make the new balls on and maybe there was a problem with those. There's a lot of perfectly boring explanations. If that's a reach, it's not nearly as big a reach as all this "they supplied specific balls to specific games to control the outcomes." Really? So they really wanted HOU back in the WS again? Against ATL?? When they had the chance to pick BOS vs. LAD?? It just doesn't pass the smell test. "It switched back to making the old ball in January 2020" You are filling in explanations that fit what you want to believe rather than reading exactly what is written. If you do not believe what is in the article, that's you calling the person who scientifically explained everything without motive a liar. Seriously, that's rich.
Tell you what, go buy a factory that makes widgets. Then decide that you want to make a newer widget for whatever reason. See how smoothly that goes. And make sure that factory is in a developing country, like Costa Rica, just for fun (and to make site trips more pleasant). Don't forget, you have to make both the new and the old widget simultaneously until you're confident that the production of the new one is up to the same speed as production of the old one, which could very likely take several months. And that's before any sort of pandemic hits... which it does, right in the middle of the switch-over. Bet you wouldn't lose any sleep at all.
Here's a link to a MLBTR summary of a story in the Athletic (full disclosure: I don't have a subscription to the Athletic, nor do I to Business Insider, so I'm relying on MLBTR's account of things for both articles) from 2/8/21 about the new baseball that MLB was planning to introduce for the 2021 season. Maybe Andrew Miller or the other quoted people "with a fair amount of distrust" in the league didn't see that story or don't remember that they introduced new baseballs this year (seriously, how could they not remember?) but there it was for all to see in February 2021, when Eno Saris and Ken Rosenthal reported that the league "sent a memo to teams outlining some changes" made to the balls.
According to MLB (who is probably lying but just bear with me), per MLBTR today, baseballs are generally made 6-12 months prior to being used in a big league game. So if you're planning to introduce a new ball, you start more than a year ahead of time (designing, testing, making new machines to make it or adjusting the old ones, etc. -- but why do I need to tell you all this? You're doing the same thing in your widget factory next door to the Rawlings factory...) and it's pretty hard to imagine that you can just flip a switch and start pumping out the new version exactly as planned. It's hardly surprising that they would have to periodically stop production of the new ball due to any number of glitches (and naturally, they would have to switch back to making the old one during those times).
So yes, I will believe in a logical narrative about the hazards of industrial logistics, with a pandemic mixed in, well before I believe that MLB kept the two types of balls separate somehow and made sure only one or the other went to specific games involving specific teams (talk about logistics!) -- and to what end? So that the two least-liked teams among many baseball fans could meet in the WS instead of two teams with among the biggest fanbases in American sports? Maybe the story should be "MLB tries to rig outcome of 2021 season using two different baseballs but screws up."
Do I believe that MLB is trying to make it sound like the pandemic was a bigger part of the problem than it was? Sure. But that's just spin, which I don't really care about, any more than I care about conspiracy theories.
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Post by Guidas on Dec 1, 2021 16:34:43 GMT -5
Rob Manfred does not like baseball.
Also, for an attorney, he sure does some legally sketchy stuff.
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Post by kingstephanos on Dec 1, 2021 20:06:42 GMT -5
Also, for an attorney, he sure does some legally sketchy stuff. It's best to know the rules, in order to properly break them. |
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Post by jmei on Dec 1, 2021 22:47:00 GMT -5
What's legally sketchy here? Both balls meet rule book specifications. I'm not sure what the objective of a conspiracy would even be. As far as I can tell, this is just a story about MLB showing some sloppiness/laziness on its manufacturing/supply chain process and that's it.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Dec 3, 2021 11:25:32 GMT -5
It's not legally sketchy at all, I agree. They have the right to do whatever they want, that's not the issue.
MLBPA and MLB ownership are in the process of negotiating an agreement for player compensation. Compensation rewards performance - for position players, that's on the basepath and in the field, but primarily it's for performance metrics at the plate. Performance at the plate is impacted every pitch of the ball and it's dynamics. Messing with the physics changes those dynamics, affects performance, and will have an impact on compensation. Given the arm-wrestling the opposing sides are involved with as they try to figure out what that will look like I don't see it as a good idea to keep players in the dark about that. |
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 5, 2021 17:48:33 GMT -5
If it is determined that MLB used different balls to influence games differently, I could see billion dollar gambling businesses discussing things with their lawyers.
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Post by voiceofreason on Dec 9, 2021 8:12:32 GMT -5
It's still all conspiracy theories to me. And no, I didn't miss that part. My guess is that the change from one ball to the other involved a lot more than just removing a few grams of twine and that the materials used to make the heavier ball were probably more available (after all it was the established model), whether because they had a bunch leftover in stock or due to supply-chain or other issues, and they went back to those because they wanted to make sure they didn't run out of balls. After all, they certainly sell more baseballs to the general public than they use in actual MLB games. They probably also needed to design new machines to make the new balls on and maybe there was a problem with those. There's a lot of perfectly boring explanations. If that's a reach, it's not nearly as big a reach as all this "they supplied specific balls to specific games to control the outcomes." Really? So they really wanted HOU back in the WS again? Against ATL?? When they had the chance to pick BOS vs. LAD?? It just doesn't pass the smell test. I basically feel the same way about conspiracy theories. The thing about them is people can't be trusted to not come out with the truth and or use the information to blackmail others if they are in on the conspiracy. In this case I also agree that each team is playing with the same balls. Maybe there is an effort to test balls and they know which ones are going where so they can measure the effects and make an informed decision on which one is better for the future of the game. That doesn't mean something nefarious was going on. And the if the rule says the ball has to be between 5-5.5 oz and they are then what is the real problem. This is like deflategate to a degree. |
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Post by costpet on Dec 9, 2021 8:57:27 GMT -5
I wonder if the 2 different balls were used in the same game or were they separated? If both were used in the same game, then it would be impossible to see the effects of one over the other.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Dec 12, 2021 12:47:16 GMT -5
Here's a synopsis of what's gone down - an opinion piece on why MLB should be open about screwing with the baseballs. |
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