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I love/hate the Renfroe for JBJ deal!
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Post by scottysmalls on Dec 6, 2021 21:51:11 GMT -5
Major league baseball literally just proposed using fWAR to determine player salaries in arbitration, and, while the publicly-available projection systems aren't as sophisticated as ones used by teams, they're the best we've got. So until Chaim opens the vault, yes, they're the best starting point to predict player performance. Certainly better than evaluating Renfroe based on how many RBIs he had last year. Keyword in my post would be projections correct? I don't think they plan on paying people based on projections quite yet. But teams are paying/acquiring people based on projections.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 6, 2021 21:55:23 GMT -5
Major league baseball literally just proposed using fWAR to determine player salaries in arbitration, and, while the publicly-available projection systems aren't as sophisticated as ones used by teams, they're the best we've got. So until Chaim opens the vault, yes, they're the best starting point to predict player performance. Certainly better than evaluating Renfroe based on how many RBIs he had last year. Keyword in my post would be projections correct? I don't think they plan on paying people based on projections quite yet. Every single FA contract is based on a team's projections.
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Post by soxinjersey on Dec 6, 2021 23:27:21 GMT -5
I started to give an A but thought again for a minute and changed my grade to a B; however, I'm not grading this specific trade so much as the whole team-building process of which this trade is one significant part. To me, the pertinent question is whether the Sox right now are better than they were in early April 2021. Do you remember the many question marks and doubts expressed in these threads at that time? Now, we can look at the team and hope for improvements at, say, 2B, RF, and the BP, but is there any doubt that the team on March 31, 2022 (if there is a season) will be substantially stronger than just a year before?
I don't imagine Bloom making any move in isolation but rather acquiring a wide variety of pieces, in major and minor moves, many of them offering flexibility in team construction. He trusts his scouts to identify underrated players and his coaches to unlock hitherto under-utilized talents.
To me, his most under-rated strength as CBO is that he knows he will make mistakes and that some risks won't pan out, but he trusts that on balance there will be more hits than misses. Was the Benintendi trade a mistake? On paper, perhaps, but CB has certainly already moved on. I liked Benny, but I didn't miss him last year and don't anticipate missing E-Rod and Renfroe, both of whom I have supported, sometimes enthusiastically, but I am looking forward to seeing the team the Red Sox will put on the field whenever the next season starts.
Is this merely an act of faith? As I've written before, I've been coaching for a long time (HS, although not baseball). Over and over again, I have seen that it's hard to judge talent (partially because numbers don't tell you everything), and it's even harder to teach players how to get better. I sense that the Sox are scouting and teaching at a very high level compared to other franchises (especially those that make the biggest noise in the winter), and I'm hoping that they believe the Binelas acquisition will become a Nick Yorke-like success.
Why did I not give the Renfroe trade an A? My major concern about Bloom is that he will follow the Rays model too closely. A lack of sentimentality in player decisions probably will work well in the long run, but not necessarily because it can undermine team culture, and then, although owners might like a close eye on the bottom line, players have to believe they are being treated with respect and some generosity. I'm not convinced for the moment that CB has the right balance between loyalty to owners and loyalty to team.
Still, I find his moves intriguing and can't wait to see what he will do next.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 7, 2021 13:47:38 GMT -5
I started to give an A but thought again for a minute and changed my grade to a B; however, I'm not grading this specific trade so much as the whole team-building process of which this trade is one significant part. To me, the pertinent question is whether the Sox right now are better than they were in early April 2021. Do you remember the many question marks and doubts expressed in these threads at that time? Now, we can look at the team and hope for improvements at, say, 2B, RF, and the BP, but is there any doubt that the team on March 31, 2022 (if there is a season) will be substantially stronger than just a year before? I don't imagine Bloom making any move in isolation but rather acquiring a wide variety of pieces, in major and minor moves, many of them offering flexibility in team construction. He trusts his scouts to identify underrated players and his coaches to unlock hitherto under-utilized talents. To me, his most under-rated strength as CBO is that he knows he will make mistakes and that some risks won't pan out, but he trusts that on balance there will be more hits than misses. Was the Benintendi trade a mistake? On paper, perhaps, but CB has certainly already moved on. I liked Benny, but I didn't miss him last year and don't anticipate missing E-Rod and Renfroe, both of whom I have supported, sometimes enthusiastically, but I am looking forward to seeing the team the Red Sox will put on the field whenever the next season starts. Is this merely an act of faith? As I've written before, I've been coaching for a long time (HS, although not baseball). Over and over again, I have seen that it's hard to judge talent (partially because numbers don't tell you everything), and it's even harder to teach players how to get better. I sense that the Sox are scouting and teaching at a very high level compared to other franchises (especially those that make the biggest noise in the winter), and I'm hoping that they believe the Binelas acquisition will become a Nick Yorke-like success. Why did I not give the Renfroe trade an A? My major concern about Bloom is that he will follow the Rays model too closely. A lack of sentimentality in player decisions probably will work well in the long run, but not necessarily because it can undermine team culture, and then, although owners might like a close eye on the bottom line, players have to believe they are being treated with respect and some generosity. I'm not convinced for the moment that CB has the right balance between loyalty to owners and loyalty to team. Still, I find his moves intriguing and can't wait to see what he will do next. I actually loved Blooms last offseason minus the Benintendi trade. Now he's not finished, yet if we are grading by what he's done so far I hate it. He's let ERod go on a steal of a contract and replaced him with three question marks. Then the Renfroe trade, he's got a long way to go before I think we are better.
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Post by ematz1423 on Dec 7, 2021 15:02:03 GMT -5
I've got to say I find it more and more peculiar when people say that Bloom "let" erod go. He wasn't an nba restricted free agent he didn't have the ability to magically match the contract. Erod said Detroit offered him a deal he liked so he decided to take it right then and end the negotiations. His comments since then have led me to believe that for whatever reason he wanted to leave Boston. He was a free agent, it isn't as if Bloom non tendered him and kicked him to the curb.
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Post by incandenza on Dec 7, 2021 15:38:23 GMT -5
I've got to say I find it more and more peculiar when people say that Bloom "let" erod go. He wasn't an nba restricted free agent he didn't have the ability to magically match the contract. Erod said Detroit offered him a deal he liked so he decided to take it right then and end the negotiations. His comments since then have led me to believe that for whatever reason he wanted to leave Boston. He was a free agent, it isn't as if Bloom non tendered him and kicked him to the curb. Well again, Bloom himself said that the cost of Rodriguez exceeded what they were willing to offer, and they had to "fight their emotions" in not expending their resources on him. And Occam's razor says that Eduardo was going to sign with whoever offered him the most money.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 7, 2021 15:39:50 GMT -5
I've got to say I find it more and more peculiar when people say that Bloom "let" erod go. He wasn't an nba restricted free agent he didn't have the ability to magically match the contract. Erod said Detroit offered him a deal he liked so he decided to take it right then and end the negotiations. His comments since then have led me to believe that for whatever reason he wanted to leave Boston. He was a free agent, it isn't as if Bloom non tendered him and kicked him to the curb. He also said Bloom never talked years with him, as in he never made him a contract offer. If you want to keep a player like ERod you make him an offer. When you don't, players feel you don't want them, which is those comments by ERod. It's Jerry McGuire, show me the money. I 'd want to leave Boston also if you didn't show me the money. This Bloom can do no wrong crap is starting to drive me crazy.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 7, 2021 15:41:06 GMT -5
I've got to say I find it more and more peculiar when people say that Bloom "let" erod go. He wasn't an nba restricted free agent he didn't have the ability to magically match the contract. Erod said Detroit offered him a deal he liked so he decided to take it right then and end the negotiations. His comments since then have led me to believe that for whatever reason he wanted to leave Boston. He was a free agent, it isn't as if Bloom non tendered him and kicked him to the curb. I still don't see anything that indicates that E-Rod got anything more than a cursory offer. I mean if you put yourself in E-Rod's shoes, it's not hard to imagine a scenario where he's hoping he gets a nice offer like the one he got from Detroit when the Red Sox were discussing extension with him or had that exclusive negotiating period after the World Series ended, and when he didn't get one, he was like, the hell with it. When you don't feel valued by your employer, it's not hard to imagine saying the hell with them and finding another employer more freely willing to give you what you think you're worth. So yeah, I do think at some point E-Rod said the hell with it, but I don't think that was his mindset all along. I think the Sox lack of a good offer played a part in this. I admit, I could be all wet here, but that's how I think this played out. I mean, if E-Rod is to be believed, he joked about getting 77 million versus the qualifying offer of 18 million, as a no-brainer, so that leads me to believe that in the time prior to the Tigers offer he received no serious offers from the Red Sox.
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Post by Guidas on Dec 7, 2021 15:44:54 GMT -5
On it's own I hate this deal, and said so at the time.
BUT...
I will give Bloom the same benefit of the doubt and wait to see if there are complementary moves after the lockout ends.
So TBA.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 7, 2021 15:48:21 GMT -5
I've got to say I find it more and more peculiar when people say that Bloom "let" erod go. He wasn't an nba restricted free agent he didn't have the ability to magically match the contract. Erod said Detroit offered him a deal he liked so he decided to take it right then and end the negotiations. His comments since then have led me to believe that for whatever reason he wanted to leave Boston. He was a free agent, it isn't as if Bloom non tendered him and kicked him to the curb. He also said Bloom never talked years with him, as in he never made him a contract offer. If you want to keep a player like ERod you make him an offer. When you don't, players feel you don't want them, which is those comments by ERod. It's Jerry McGuire, show me the money. I 'd want to leave Boston also if you didn't show me the money. This Bloom can do no wrong crap is starting to drive me crazy.Yeah, I sense that tone somewhat too. Like, if Bloom is doing this, it must be right, and there's no sense in questioning it or debating it because he knows more than we do and that's the end of the discussion. But that doesn't make him beyond reproach. Nobody is. And I say that as somebody who genuinely likes, from the big picture, what Bloom is trying to accomplish. I think he is quite creative, has the Red Sox competitive and is building up the farm system, so I definitely like the direction he has the Sox pointed. I agree with UMass that the Sox aren't in a better place now than they were in Oct 2021, but it is incomplete as the Sox are in flux as of this freeze period....so to be continued and debated later.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Dec 7, 2021 16:00:40 GMT -5
I gave it an F. For.....F that ! LOL.
Hope the prospects do well and JBJ can hit. I hate to say it, but i don't look forward to swing and missing on fastballs up an in. Maybe he fixed that hole.
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Post by ematz1423 on Dec 7, 2021 16:22:04 GMT -5
I've got to say I find it more and more peculiar when people say that Bloom "let" erod go. He wasn't an nba restricted free agent he didn't have the ability to magically match the contract. Erod said Detroit offered him a deal he liked so he decided to take it right then and end the negotiations. His comments since then have led me to believe that for whatever reason he wanted to leave Boston. He was a free agent, it isn't as if Bloom non tendered him and kicked him to the curb. He also said Bloom never talked years with him, as in he never made him a contract offer. If you want to keep a player like ERod you make him an offer. When you don't, players feel you don't want them, which is those comments by ERod. It's Jerry McGuire, show me the money. I 'd want to leave Boston also if you didn't show me the money. This Bloom can do no wrong crap is starting to drive me crazy. I've never once nor would I ever say Bloom or any GM can do no wrong. Hes done plenty I don't like but like I said it's absurd to me for people to say Bloom "let him go" as if the final decision came down to Bloom to make. When a team let's someone go to me that means they nontendered or cut them. Maybe it's just semantics but I'll never look at a player who leaves the sox via free agency as the team "letting them go" unless there's reports that the Red sox had the opportunity to match the deal.
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Post by ematz1423 on Dec 7, 2021 16:24:15 GMT -5
He also said Bloom never talked years with him, as in he never made him a contract offer. If you want to keep a player like ERod you make him an offer. When you don't, players feel you don't want them, which is those comments by ERod. It's Jerry McGuire, show me the money. I 'd want to leave Boston also if you didn't show me the money. This Bloom can do no wrong crap is starting to drive me crazy.Yeah, I sense that tone somewhat too. Like, if Bloom is doing this, it must be right, and there's no sense in questioning it or debating it because he knows more than we do and that's the end of the discussion. But that doesn't make him beyond reproach. Nobody is. And I say that as somebody who genuinely likes, from the big picture, what Bloom is trying to accomplish. I think he is quite creative, has the Red Sox competitive and is building up the farm system, so I definitely like the direction he has the Sox pointed. I agree with UMass that the Sox aren't in a better place now than they were in Oct 2021, but it is incomplete as the Sox are in flux as of this freeze period....so to be continued and debated later. If you feel that was the tone of my comment my apologies but that's not what I was saying or how I feel at all. I'm not a blind sheep Bloom follower who says oh well if Bloom did it than it has to be the right move.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 7, 2021 16:31:09 GMT -5
Yeah, I sense that tone somewhat too. Like, if Bloom is doing this, it must be right, and there's no sense in questioning it or debating it because he knows more than we do and that's the end of the discussion. But that doesn't make him beyond reproach. Nobody is. And I say that as somebody who genuinely likes, from the big picture, what Bloom is trying to accomplish. I think he is quite creative, has the Red Sox competitive and is building up the farm system, so I definitely like the direction he has the Sox pointed. I agree with UMass that the Sox aren't in a better place now than they were in Oct 2021, but it is incomplete as the Sox are in flux as of this freeze period....so to be continued and debated later. If you feel that was the tone of my comment my apologies but that's not what I was saying or how I feel at all. I'm not a blind sheep Bloom follower who says oh well if Bloom did it than it has to be the right move. My apologies as well. I do feel a sense of Bloom cannot be questioned because he knows more than us (literally that has been said at times), but I didn't mean for you to be pinned to that. Bloom DOES know more than all of us. A lot more. That said, a genius can make a mistake and a moron can be right about something. Sort of like a broken clock being right twice a day.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 7, 2021 16:37:33 GMT -5
He also said Bloom never talked years with him, as in he never made him a contract offer. If you want to keep a player like ERod you make him an offer. When you don't, players feel you don't want them, which is those comments by ERod. It's Jerry McGuire, show me the money. I 'd want to leave Boston also if you didn't show me the money. This Bloom can do no wrong crap is starting to drive me crazy. I've never once nor would I ever say Bloom or any GM can do no wrong. Hes done plenty I don't like but like I said it's absurd to me for people to say Bloom "let him go" as if the final decision came down to Bloom to make. When a team let's someone go to me that means they nontendered or cut them. Maybe it's just semantics but I'll never look at a player who leaves the sox via free agency as the team "letting them go" unless there's reports that the Red sox had the opportunity to match the deal. So not offering a free agent a contract doesn't qualify as letting a player go in your book, okay it certainly does in mine. Those articles spinning what ERod said like he wanted out of Boston are from people that think Bloom can do no wrong. Put another way, does anyone think ERod goes to Detroit if we offer him the same deal? I don't for one second, yet Bloom thought that was too much, hence it's on Bloom.
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Post by ematz1423 on Dec 7, 2021 16:42:31 GMT -5
I've never once nor would I ever say Bloom or any GM can do no wrong. Hes done plenty I don't like but like I said it's absurd to me for people to say Bloom "let him go" as if the final decision came down to Bloom to make. When a team let's someone go to me that means they nontendered or cut them. Maybe it's just semantics but I'll never look at a player who leaves the sox via free agency as the team "letting them go" unless there's reports that the Red sox had the opportunity to match the deal. So not offering a free agent a contract doesn't qualify as letting a player go in your book, okay it certainly does in mine. Those articles spinning what ERod said like he wanted out of Boston are from people that think Bloom can do no wrong. Put another way, does anyone think ERod goes to Detroit if we offer him the same deal? I don't for one second, yet Bloom thought that was too much, hence it's on Bloom. A quick Google search of red sox offer Eduardo Rodriguez multi year offer brings up quite a few news stories saying that they indeed did, reported by Jon Heyman. So where you're coming up with that they never offered him a contract I'm not sure. To answer your second question who knows maybe he does still take it if theoretically the sox offer the same deal. He seems to be very tight with Juan nieves and like I said his comments to me made it sound like he wanted to go to Detroit.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 7, 2021 16:55:10 GMT -5
So not offering a free agent a contract doesn't qualify as letting a player go in your book, okay it certainly does in mine. Those articles spinning what ERod said like he wanted out of Boston are from people that think Bloom can do no wrong. Put another way, does anyone think ERod goes to Detroit if we offer him the same deal? I don't for one second, yet Bloom thought that was too much, hence it's on Bloom. A quick Google search of red sox offer Eduardo Rodriguez multi year offer brings up quite a few news stories saying that they indeed did, reported by Jon Heyman. So where you're coming up with that they never offered him a contract I'm not sure. To answer your second question who knows maybe he does still take it if theoretically the sox offer the same deal. He seems to be very tight with Juan nieves and like I said his comments to me made it sound like he wanted to go to Detroit. Erod said they never discussed years before he signed with Detriot. Those offers were during the season and were so bad ERod fired his agent. If you put what Bloom said and what ERod said it becomes rather clear. ERod wanted more than Bloom was willing, so he bowed out and didn't even make an offer. Which naturally would make any player upset and feel not wanted.
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Post by ematz1423 on Dec 7, 2021 17:07:48 GMT -5
A quick Google search of red sox offer Eduardo Rodriguez multi year offer brings up quite a few news stories saying that they indeed did, reported by Jon Heyman. So where you're coming up with that they never offered him a contract I'm not sure. To answer your second question who knows maybe he does still take it if theoretically the sox offer the same deal. He seems to be very tight with Juan nieves and like I said his comments to me made it sound like he wanted to go to Detroit. Erod said they never discussed years before he signed with Detriot. Those offers were during the season and were so bad ERod fired his agent. If you put what Bloom said and what ERod said it becomes rather clear. ERod wanted more than Bloom was willing, so he bowed out and didn't even make an offer. Which naturally would make any player upset and feel not wanted. I see where he said they didn't talk about years and all that but also "said he knows they wanted him back there but it's time for me to move and start the new part of my life." Obviously we'll never know 100 percent but my stance is he wanted to leave Boston at that point and thus accepted the tigers offer when it was offered rather than negotiating any further elsewhere. Perhaps you're correct and it was a mishandled negotiation with erod all along and Bloom pushed him out the door. Once again it's all semantics and I'm all set on posting bout it any further as he's gone.
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Post by baseball3 on Dec 7, 2021 17:56:56 GMT -5
Yeah, I sense that tone somewhat too. Like, if Bloom is doing this, it must be right, and there's no sense in questioning it or debating it because he knows more than we do and that's the end of the discussion. But that doesn't make him beyond reproach. Nobody is. And I say that as somebody who genuinely likes, from the big picture, what Bloom is trying to accomplish. I think he is quite creative, has the Red Sox competitive and is building up the farm system, so I definitely like the direction he has the Sox pointed. I agree with UMass that the Sox aren't in a better place now than they were in Oct 2021, but it is incomplete as the Sox are in flux as of this freeze period....so to be continued and debated later. If you feel that was the tone of my comment my apologies but that's not what I was saying or how I feel at all. I'm not a blind sheep Bloom follower who says oh well if Bloom did it than it has to be the right move. I think that post was meant for most of the posters here. Champs was speaking of the general consensus.
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Post by manfred on Dec 7, 2021 17:59:06 GMT -5
The thing that bothers me is the mind reading: x didn’t want to play here, y was never going to sign. That becomes a way of affirming preconceived notions (Bloom did his best, but what could he do?).
I figure you judge on bottom lines. The GM (or whatever title) is responsible. Further: even if we grant that argument, at what point do you start asking about the culture of a team that guys prefer to leave behind? How is “ERod would rather go to Detroit than stay on a team that could be close to a title” speak well for this club if it *isn’t* money?
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Dec 7, 2021 18:19:27 GMT -5
Can't wait for the lockout to end so we have something to talk about other than endlessly re-litigating the ERod deal in every thread.
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Post by jmei on Dec 7, 2021 19:36:33 GMT -5
Let’s get back on topic. Thanks.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 7, 2021 19:46:25 GMT -5
A quick Google search of red sox offer Eduardo Rodriguez multi year offer brings up quite a few news stories saying that they indeed did, reported by Jon Heyman. So where you're coming up with that they never offered him a contract I'm not sure. To answer your second question who knows maybe he does still take it if theoretically the sox offer the same deal. He seems to be very tight with Juan nieves and like I said his comments to me made it sound like he wanted to go to Detroit. Erod said they never discussed years before he signed with Detriot. Those offers were during the season and were so bad ERod fired his agent. If you put what Bloom said and what ERod said it becomes rather clear. ERod wanted more than Bloom was willing, so he bowed out and didn't even make an offer. Which naturally would make any player upset and feel not wanted. You know a result of ERod saying that or his camp leaking that? Red Sox fans that believe him are not upset with him for not staying and putting all the blame on the Red Sox instead. It reminds me of Jon Lester saying he felt disrespected after the initial offer of 4/$70 after his sh*tty 2012 season, even though they matched the Cubs offer about 5 times when they were bidding against each other. I will assume that both were always taking the most money since that is what they did.
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Post by jmei on Dec 7, 2021 20:10:48 GMT -5
Let’s get back on topic. Thanks.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 7, 2021 20:16:22 GMT -5
Yeah, I was typing that long before you wrote your post.
Hard to discuss the catch-all topic of how Bloom is doing in 18 different threads and you also hate the catch-all threads. But it's all anyone wants to talk about.
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