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Post by Underwater Johnson on Dec 5, 2021 16:07:52 GMT -5
In the interests of nipping this thing in the bud (there's already 17 pages and we've long since run out of new material to justify our arguments), I propose that we just give the trade a grade and then wait a year or three and see how the trade actually works out. [N.B. I didn't include "Incomplete" in the poll because obviously we won't really know how it turns out for quite a while.]
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 5, 2021 18:02:51 GMT -5
What's the curve here?
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Post by stevedillard on Dec 5, 2021 18:24:41 GMT -5
The Benintendi curve. Known marginally above average production vs. upside prospects. If Binelas Valdez's his first year, I'll buy less of the dream and put it at a D. If he is who we think he is, its a B+
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 5, 2021 18:31:03 GMT -5
If they didn't trade Renroe, he probably wouldn't have been tendered. The only possible complaint is that you don't want JBJ on the team regardless of salary.
Renfroe is not really worth his arb estimate on this team anyway and they want someone better to replace him as well as have a better CF/RF backup. He's not a guy that the Red Sox would covet on the bench because they like versatility, such as the ability to play CF and Fenway's RF at an extremely high level.
I guarantee that the people who don't like this are likely to grade it higher when the corresponding move(s) are made.
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Post by jmei on Dec 5, 2021 18:54:27 GMT -5
What? There is a 100% chance that Renfroe would have been tendered.
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Post by incandenza on Dec 5, 2021 19:47:53 GMT -5
Yeah, Renfroe is overrated but let's not go crazy... He's well worth a $7-8 million salary.
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Post by saltalamacchia4mvp on Dec 5, 2021 19:48:22 GMT -5
Seiya Suzuki followed the Red Sox on Instagram 👀 (He follows no other MLB teams, BTW) Could be nothing, could be something. He's the guy I want playing right field at Fenway - could be a superstar bat. Also, perfect first name for merchandising too if you think about it 😂....If they sign Suzuki the deal makes perfect sense to trade away Renfroe for JBJ and some decent prospects. Improve defense, add talent, and potentially get the better player in Suzuki if he turns out to be as good as advertised.
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Post by soxinsf on Dec 5, 2021 19:53:06 GMT -5
When I was in university, we used to talk about getting a gentleman’s C as the minimal acceptable grade. Just good enough to show that you had not blown the course off.
That is what this trade is. Just barely good enough but hardly a stellar effort. Can the grade, like wine, get better over time? Certainly. Or will it show itself to have never having had the goods in the first place?
That is why it is an incomplete. And UWJ has grown weary of reading pages and pages of repetitive wild guesses. I hope we all have.
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Post by baseball3 on Dec 5, 2021 20:34:26 GMT -5
Not sure the angle is here either. I voted C. I hated not getting higher ceiling prospects in the deal, but Binelas' bat makes you dream on the next franchise bat in the organization. JBJ might protect the Sox from a Kiké departure in 2023 or something and I don't take it as a total loss. Either that, or flip JBJ for more prospects. The more you dive into the trade the more you can think about the options it gives the Sox. I think Milwaukee got the better end of the deal still, but if the Sox land Suzuki. You can see why they did it. |
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 5, 2021 20:34:58 GMT -5
I'm giving the idea of the trade a B because the trade is a total incomplete and I can't evaluate it properly, and that's not given as an option.
I have no idea if Binelas is a AAAA DH or a future stud LF or fungible trade bait that returns another asset.
All I know is there is some pedigree with Binelas and he is the key to the trade.
Hamilton could be useful down the road but I don't think he is as essential.
I wouldn't trade Renfroe for JBJ straight up at this point. I don't think JBJ will hit as poorly as he did in 2021 but I don't expect him to be much over the Mendoza line. At least he'll provide good defense.
But the trade isn't a straight up deal so if Binelas becomes a little better than average regular the deal is good.
If the prospects bust then it's not a good deal and I have no idea how Binelas turns out although I find him quite interesting.
In a vacuum the deal could go either way and you could call it a loss for 2022, but if the Sox are planning to upgrade RF anyway and if Suzuki signs and is a better player then it's all good even if the prospects don't set the world on fire.
But I'm guessing the Sox see Binelas as a bat the could really break out.
Renfroe isn't exactly heading for the HOF so I suspect they'll be fine with this trade. They just have to adequately replace him after the freeze.
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Post by julyanmorley on Dec 5, 2021 20:38:04 GMT -5
I like to think Chaim Bloom felt a sense of urgency to get this deal done just so we could have something to talk about during the lockout.
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Post by baseball3 on Dec 5, 2021 20:38:58 GMT -5
Seiya Suzuki followed the Red Sox on Instagram 👀 (He follows no other MLB teams, BTW) Could be nothing, could be something. He's the guy I want playing right field at Fenway - could be a superstar bat. Also, perfect first name for merchandising too if you think about it 😂....If they sign Suzuki the deal makes perfect sense to trade away Renfroe for JBJ and some decent prospects. Improve defense, add talent, and potentially get the better player in Suzuki if he turns out to be as good as advertised. Yeah I think the question of how good Suzuki affects how good the Sox offseason really is. They better be right about him. It's a huge gamble. Got to land him first, however. |
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Dec 5, 2021 20:51:47 GMT -5
Seiya Suzuki followed the Red Sox on Instagram 👀 (He follows no other MLB teams, BTW) Could be nothing, could be something. He's the guy I want playing right field at Fenway - could be a superstar bat. Also, perfect first name for merchandising too if you think about it 😂....If they sign Suzuki the deal makes perfect sense to trade away Renfroe for JBJ and some decent prospects. Improve defense, add talent, and potentially get the better player in Suzuki if he turns out to be as good as advertised. Don't want to get too far off base here but if you want the perfect name for Fenway, then you want Chaim to draft Kumar Rocker.
EDIT: Solid research by @salty!
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Dec 5, 2021 20:56:01 GMT -5
I'm giving the idea of the trade a B because the trade is a total incomplete and I can't evaluate it properly, and that's not given as an option. I have no idea if Binelas is a AAAA DH or a future stud LF or fungible trade bait that returns another asset. All I know is there is some pedigree with Binelas and he is the key to the trade. Hamilton could be useful down the road but I don't think he is as essential. I wouldn't trade Renfroe for JBJ straight up at this point. I don't think JBJ will hit as poorly as he did in 2021 but I don't expect him to be much over the Mendoza line. At least he'll provide good defense. But the trade isn't a straight up deal so if Binelas becomes a little better than average regular the deal is good. If the prospects bust then it's not a good deal and I have no idea how Binelas turns out although I find him quite interesting. In a vacuum the deal could go either way and you could call it a loss for 2022, but if the Sox are planning to upgrade RF anyway and if Suzuki signs and is a better player then it's all good even if the prospects don't set the world on fire. But I'm guessing the Sox see Binelas as a bat the could really break out. Renfroe isn't exactly heading for the HOF so I suspect they'll be fine with this trade. They just have to adequately replace him after the freeze. If "incomplete" were an option, everyone would vote "incomplete" (or F).... |
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Post by saltalamacchia4mvp on Dec 5, 2021 21:10:45 GMT -5
I really think they have something lined up with Suzuki once the lockout ends - or at least another backup plan for a right-handed bat if they can't land Suzuki. Can't truly grade the Renfroe deal until I see where the dominos fall once the lockout ends...
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Dec 5, 2021 21:11:31 GMT -5
I can't stop thinking about @salty's finding that Suzuki is following the Sox on IG and no other team -- and I'm not even that high on Suzuki!
Can teams talk to players who are not in the union?
Can they strike deals with players who are not in the union?
If Suzuki signed a deal now, would the union black-ball him?
Could the Sox sign him to a $50m minor-league deal?
That would be awesome.
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Post by saltalamacchia4mvp on Dec 5, 2021 21:13:59 GMT -5
I can't stop thinking about @salty's finding that Suzuki is following the Sox on IG and no other team -- and I'm not even that high on Suzuki! Can teams talk to players who are not in the union? Can they strike deals with players who are not in the union? If Suzuki signed a deal now, would the union black-ball him? Could the Sox sign him to a $50m minor-league deal? That would be awesome. I'm pretty high on him after watching some YouTube highlights 😂Just looks to have a Fenway swing, idk. |
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Dec 5, 2021 21:16:24 GMT -5
Interesting tidbit from MLBTR a few hours ago in a story about BOS, TOR, and MFY being the "most aggressive suitors" for Suzuki, per Sean McAdam:
"... it was recently reported that the Jays had discussions with the Brewers about a trade centered around Grichuk and Bradley Jr., before the latter was traded to the Red Sox last week. It would appear the club is open to moving on from Grichuk and coming up with a different outfield arrangement."
So BOS wasn't even the only team in on JBJ! Clearly Renfroe trumped Grichuk in that hand...
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Post by sibbysisti on Dec 5, 2021 22:05:40 GMT -5
I was hoping for a Suzuki signing and a Renfroe trade for an established closer. This trade, however puts Bloom in a position to move some prosects, Jeter, Hamilton, Seabold, for example, to accomplish the same thing.
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Post by sibbysisti on Dec 5, 2021 22:08:18 GMT -5
Suzuki, of course, would make this a great trade.
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Post by sibbysisti on Dec 5, 2021 22:09:31 GMT -5
I give it a unqualified “B”.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 6, 2021 0:02:13 GMT -5
I was hoping for a Suzuki signing and a Renfroe trade for an established closer. This trade, however puts Bloom in a position to move some prosects, Jeter, Hamilton, Seabold, for example, to accomplish the same thing. If they're looking to take on money, give the White Sox a call, they have a closer making 16 million who's a really overpaid setup man - Craig Kimbrel. Somehow I don't see Bloom paying 16 million for a closer even though I don't think the Sox would have to give up much in prospects and could keep their abundance intact. |
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Dec 6, 2021 0:47:11 GMT -5
B without Suzuki, A with Suzuki
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 6, 2021 1:59:13 GMT -5
I wouldn't grade it until I see the final makeup of the club. If JBJ is our starting CF, it's an "F" but could go all the way to "A" with the right fit.
It's like Hill, Paxton & Wacha. Individually low grades but together, extremely crafty.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Dec 6, 2021 2:36:58 GMT -5
I wouldn't grade it until I see the final makeup of the club. If JBJ is our starting CF, it's an "F" but could go all the way to "A" with the right fit. It's like Hill, Paxton & Wacha. Individually low grades but together, extremely crafty. . Expand that togetherness of Paxton, Hill and Wacha to include Sale, Eovaldi, Pivetta, Houck and Whitlock and this is already a very good rotation, with more in AAA and possibly another pickup in the works. Am no longer worried about the rotation. Just want better RP and an offensive replacement for both Renfroe and Schwarber. |
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