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Greatest Red Sox prospects in team history?
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Post by trajanacc on Jan 7, 2022 12:54:05 GMT -5
I am wondering, for those who have followed sox prospects for a long time and/or scouted...who are the prospects in team history who were the most highly regarded before they arrived in MLB?
(Always difficult to answer this question accurately when you have the benefit of hindsight of how their pro careers turned out)
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jan 7, 2022 14:33:26 GMT -5
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Post by ramireja on Jan 7, 2022 14:59:22 GMT -5
Interesting. Going strictly off this, Benintendi is the only one to rank #1 on BA. Benintendi, Bogaerts, Moncada, and Buccholz were all top 10 at one point. I suspect maybe Betts and Devers were too, although we don't see that in this table because they weren't the highest ranked in our system? That leads to my next point though: Crazy that Betts was never top in our own system by either BA or MLB Pipeline; because in terms of hype generated by us here on SP, I would consider him one of our most hyped prospects of all time internally. He has the downside though of his ascent being super fast and coming up at a time with other elite prospects who ranked just ahead of him. |
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Post by julyanmorley on Jan 7, 2022 15:31:38 GMT -5
I think Betts was the best Red Sox prospect this century if you're measuring at the time of their MLB debut. Bogaerts, Devers, Buchholz and Benintendi are the other contenders. Buchholz had a monster 2007 season in the minors and then tossed the no hitter after a call up.
Baseball America dropped Griffey and Bonds comps for Hanley Ramirez in rookie ball, but he didn't play well enough in full-season ball to keep the hype at insane levels.
Ted Williams hit .366 with 43 bombs as a teenager in his last minor league season. That's probably hard to top.
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TearsIn04
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Post by TearsIn04 on Jan 7, 2022 15:35:43 GMT -5
If we're talking about the team's entire history, I'd say it's hard to imagine someone more highly touted than Yaz. He was billed as the replacement for the GHWEL.
The amazing thing about Yaz (well, one of many amazing things) is that he replaced an all-time legend and established his own distinct legend. He's the guy who saved BB in Boston, possibly the greatest defensive LF in history, put up the greatest position-player season of the integration era and the best in nearly 100 years (based on B-Ref WAR), first AL player with 3,000 hits and 400 HRs.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 7, 2022 16:00:08 GMT -5
If we're talking about the team's entire history, I'd say it's hard to imagine someone more highly touted than Yaz. He was billed as the replacement for the GHWEL. The amazing thing about Yaz (well, one of many amazing things) is that he replaced an all-time legend and established his own distinct legend. He's the guy who saved BB in Boston, possibly the greatest defensive LF in history, put up the greatest position-player season of the integration era and the best in nearly 100 years (based on B-Ref WAR), first AL player with 3,000 hits and 400 HRs. Besides Yaz and Ted, there have been other highly regarded prospects of course. Ted Williams wasn't the focal point of Eddie Collins' trip to San Diego. It was a young 2b named Bobby Doerr, who turned out to be pretty good. I believe Jim Rice, Mo Vaughn, and Nomar Garciaparra were highly regarded Red Sox prospects before coming up. With Vaughn and Nomar I wasn't too surprised to see them become great players, although it took Mo a bit of time, and Nomar was far better than I thought he'd be. I think Freddie Lynn, Carlton Fisk, and Wade Boggs were less heralded coming through the system. I don't think Fisk was expected to be a star, nor do I think Lynn was excpected to be quite the player he was with the Sox. With Boggs they were close to releasing him, just seeing him as a led footed singles hitting defensively challenged player. |
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Jan 7, 2022 16:56:39 GMT -5
In 2014 Chad Finn of the Globe did the "Top 50 Red Sox prospects of the last 50 years," basically in the draft era. Rice was #1, followed by Evans, Clemens, Lynn, Ken Brett, Xander, Nomar, Hanley, Cecil Cooper, and Fisk at 10. Evans may surprise; he quotes a writer saying "in Triple-A at age 20 in 1972, winning International League MVP honors by hitting .300 with a .409 OBP and 17 home runs. Add in his legendary throwing arm ... and prospect mavens would have been drooling over Dewey." archive.boston.com/sports/touching_all_the_bases/2014/04/red_sox_top_50_prospects_of_al.htmlPREVIOUSLY IN THIS SERIES Introduction: The inspiration, the process, and the near-misses. Nos. 50-41: Juan Bustabad, Gus Burgess, Otis Foster, Brian Rose, Rick Burleson, Juan Beniquez, Bobby Ojeda, Rick Jones, Bill Lee, Luis Alvarado. Nos. 40-31: Billy Conigliaro, Dick Pole, Aaron Sele, Scott Cooper, Joe Lahoud, Butch Hobson, Glenn Hoffman, Kevin Youkilis, Dustin Pedroia. Nos, 30-21: Don Aase, Jonathan Papelbon, Bruce Hurst, Jon Lester, Phil Plantier, Mike Greenwell, Jeff Bagwell, Wade Boggs, Ted Cox, Mike Brown. Nos. 20-11: Sam Horn, Trot Nixon, Rey Quinones, Brady Anderson, Frankie Rodriguez, Carl Pavano, Jacoby Ellsbury, Mo Vaughn, Clay Buchholz, Ellis Burks. |
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Post by bosox904 on Jan 7, 2022 16:59:48 GMT -5
Interesting. Going strictly off this, Benintendi is the only one to rank #1 on BA. Benintendi, Bogaerts, Moncada, and Buccholz were all top 10 at one point. I suspect maybe Betts and Devers were too, although we don't see that in this table because they weren't the highest ranked in our system? That leads to my next point though: Crazy that Betts was never top in our own system by either BA or MLB Pipeline; because in terms of hype generated by us here on SP, I would consider him one of our most hyped prospects of all time internally. He has the downside though of his ascent being super fast and coming up at a time with other elite prospects who ranked just ahead of him. Devers never ranked higher than 17th on MLB or Baseball America and his highest rank for Baseball prospectus was 13th. Betts only was in the top 100 once for both MLB(62nd overall) and Baseball America(75th overall). |
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Jan 7, 2022 16:59:49 GMT -5
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jan 7, 2022 17:32:43 GMT -5
Interesting. Going strictly off this, Benintendi is the only one to rank #1 on BA. Benintendi, Bogaerts, Moncada, and Buccholz were all top 10 at one point. I suspect maybe Betts and Devers were too, although we don't see that in this table because they weren't the highest ranked in our system? That leads to my next point though: Crazy that Betts was never top in our own system by either BA or MLB Pipeline; because in terms of hype generated by us here on SP, I would consider him one of our most hyped prospects of all time internally. He has the downside though of his ascent being super fast and coming up at a time with other elite prospects who ranked just ahead of him. If you click through to each year, they give you each top 100 guy. Betts ranked #1 in the midyear list in 2014, I believe. He certainly would've been #1 that offseason but he graduated out. As I've like to describe it, his rise was too meteoric to be appreciated looking at the year-end rankings. Daisuke Matsuzaka was also ranked #1 by BA the year he came over, although I'd argue he shouldn't have been considered a prospect and I don't think he would be now. Benintendi, Betts, Moncada, and Bogaerts are the four that come to mind in the SoxProspects era as the S-level guys if you were to do tiers. Maybe Buccholz is on the cusp. Also, does Andy Marte count if he was acquired and then dealt the same offseason? He was the team's top prospect the short time they had him. I forget how highly he was ranked though, although I recall it being pretty high. |
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 7, 2022 17:33:17 GMT -5
And yes, you're right about Clemens too. I forgot about him. I shouldn't have. As a kid, I was lucky enough to see when Clemens was pitching in AA New Britain, CT. I think everybody in the stands that night knew he was going to be special. We just didn't know to what extent. I remember the only controversy surrounding him was whether to call him "Rodge" or "Clem". "The Rocket" hadn't taken off yet. I didn't realize Evans was as highly regarded as he was coming up. Now if only he was as highly regarded with respect to the HOF. And not a lot of time for the pre-career hype for Tony C. Up at 19 with just 1 year under his belt, in the lower minors. If that guy had stayed healthy, he'd be in the HOF. I think he would have hit more than 500 HRs. |
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Post by julyanmorley on Jan 7, 2022 17:41:15 GMT -5
Devers never ranked higher than 17th on MLB or Baseball America and his highest rank for Baseball prospectus was 13th. Betts only was in the top 100 once for both MLB(62nd overall) and Baseball America(75th overall). Devers and Betts both would have had years right at the top of those lists except their spectacular final minor league seasons ended with enough major league time to disqualify them. |
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jan 7, 2022 18:24:59 GMT -5
Devers was #6 in the BA midyear rankings in 2017. Good call. I'd forgotten that one.
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Post by trajanacc on Jan 7, 2022 18:26:41 GMT -5
In 2014 Chad Finn of the Globe did the "Top 50 Red Sox prospects of the last 50 years," basically in the draft era. Rice was #1, followed by Evans, Clemens, Lynn, Ken Brett, Xander, Nomar, Hanley, Cecil Cooper, and Fisk at 10. Evans may surprise; he quotes a writer saying "in Triple-A at age 20 in 1972, winning International League MVP honors by hitting .300 with a .409 OBP and 17 home runs. Add in his legendary throwing arm ... and prospect mavens would have been drooling over Dewey." archive.boston.com/sports/touching_all_the_bases/2014/04/red_sox_top_50_prospects_of_al.htmlPREVIOUSLY IN THIS SERIES Introduction: The inspiration, the process, and the near-misses. Nos. 50-41: Juan Bustabad, Gus Burgess, Otis Foster, Brian Rose, Rick Burleson, Juan Beniquez, Bobby Ojeda, Rick Jones, Bill Lee, Luis Alvarado. Nos. 40-31: Billy Conigliaro, Dick Pole, Aaron Sele, Scott Cooper, Joe Lahoud, Butch Hobson, Glenn Hoffman, Kevin Youkilis, Dustin Pedroia. Nos, 30-21: Don Aase, Jonathan Papelbon, Bruce Hurst, Jon Lester, Phil Plantier, Mike Greenwell, Jeff Bagwell, Wade Boggs, Ted Cox, Mike Brown. Nos. 20-11: Sam Horn, Trot Nixon, Rey Quinones, Brady Anderson, Frankie Rodriguez, Carl Pavano, Jacoby Ellsbury, Mo Vaughn, Clay Buchholz, Ellis Burks. Thanks, this is a nice comprehensive list. It speaks to the hindsight bias I referenced in the OP that this article, written in Betts’s rookie year, did not place him even in the top 50 all-time prospects, while several here remember him as arguably the best prospect this century. |
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Jan 7, 2022 21:03:05 GMT -5
Reggie Smith hit 320.377.522.899 in AAA at 21 In 1966, was 2nd in ROY in 67, won a GG in cf in 68. Had been a 2b I think. Bat was so quick he would pull too many foul “home runs”.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jan 8, 2022 9:01:18 GMT -5
In 2014 Chad Finn of the Globe did the "Top 50 Red Sox prospects of the last 50 years," basically in the draft era. Rice was #1, followed by Evans, Clemens, Lynn, Ken Brett, Xander, Nomar, Hanley, Cecil Cooper, and Fisk at 10. Evans may surprise; he quotes a writer saying "in Triple-A at age 20 in 1972, winning International League MVP honors by hitting .300 with a .409 OBP and 17 home runs. Add in his legendary throwing arm ... and prospect mavens would have been drooling over Dewey." archive.boston.com/sports/touching_all_the_bases/2014/04/red_sox_top_50_prospects_of_al.htmlPREVIOUSLY IN THIS SERIES Introduction: The inspiration, the process, and the near-misses. Nos. 50-41: Juan Bustabad, Gus Burgess, Otis Foster, Brian Rose, Rick Burleson, Juan Beniquez, Bobby Ojeda, Rick Jones, Bill Lee, Luis Alvarado. Nos. 40-31: Billy Conigliaro, Dick Pole, Aaron Sele, Scott Cooper, Joe Lahoud, Butch Hobson, Glenn Hoffman, Kevin Youkilis, Dustin Pedroia. Nos, 30-21: Don Aase, Jonathan Papelbon, Bruce Hurst, Jon Lester, Phil Plantier, Mike Greenwell, Jeff Bagwell, Wade Boggs, Ted Cox, Mike Brown. Nos. 20-11: Sam Horn, Trot Nixon, Rey Quinones, Brady Anderson, Frankie Rodriguez, Carl Pavano, Jacoby Ellsbury, Mo Vaughn, Clay Buchholz, Ellis Burks. Thanks, this is a nice comprehensive list. It speaks to the hindsight bias I referenced in the OP that this article, written in Betts’s rookie year, did not place him even in the top 50 all-time prospects, while several here remember him as arguably the best prospect this century. Well the thing with Betts is that he was an uber-prospect for about a month and a half. I saw him in Manchester over memorial day weekend that year and a scout (Andy Brickley's brother actually, iirc) was saying he is be in MLB now, which was an eye opener. The other thing is comparing prospects from, let's say, before the aughts and after is kind of night and day. It was just such a different environment at that time, but in terms of the game and of coverage. |
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Post by bosox904 on Jan 8, 2022 10:21:34 GMT -5
Devers was #6 in the BA midyear rankings in 2017. Good call. I'd forgotten that one. Didn't realize that. I went by baseball reference, which apparently doesn't show mid season rankings. |
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TearsIn04
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Post by TearsIn04 on Jan 8, 2022 14:45:07 GMT -5
Ken Brett doesn't come immediately to mind for most of us, but he was a highly regarded prospect. Kemer was drafted no. 4 overall in 1966 and put up a 1.95 ERA with 219 K's in 189 IP in A and AA the next year.
He was nearly five years younger than the average player in AA while pitching for Pittsfield in the Eastern League. That fall, he became the youngest P in WS history, throwing 1.3 innings of hitless ball against the Cards.
Now, of course, he's best known for his frequent flier miles - he pitched for 10 ML teams - and as George's brother. But he was once a young, fireballing lefty who appeared headed for stardom.
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Post by keninten on Jan 8, 2022 18:44:51 GMT -5
I always thought Juan Beniquez was going to be an All-Star for us.
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Jan 8, 2022 21:41:57 GMT -5
Ken Brett doesn't come immediately to mind for most of us, but he was a highly regarded prospect. Kemer was drafted no. 4 overall in 1966 and put up a 1.95 ERA with 219 K's in 189 IP in A and AA the next year. He was nearly five years younger than the average player in AA while pitching for Pittsfield in the Eastern League. That fall, he became the youngest P in WS history, throwing 1.3 innings of hitless ball against the Cards. Now, of course, he's best known for his frequent flier miles - he pitched for 10 ML teams - and as George's brother. But he was once a young, fireballing lefty who appeared headed for stardom. Many people think Ken Brett could have been a better hitter than George. Even as a pitcher he slugged over 400 lifetime. Such a shame that after 67 Lonborg tore his knee skiing and Brett hurt his elbow after she ding 6 months (I think? Or weeks?) doing military service. |
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Post by greekgodofpancakes on Jan 9, 2022 21:54:33 GMT -5
I know this isn't what this thread is about, but when I saw the thread title, I think of those that were hyped and never panned out and I immediately think of Frankie Rodriguez and Greg Blosser.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 9, 2022 22:27:37 GMT -5
I know this isn't what this thread is about, but when I saw the thread title, I think of those that were hyped and never panned out and I immediately think of Frankie Rodriguez and Greg Blosser. Good call. Frankie Rodriguez was one of those Peter Gammons hyped prospects. I remember going to a New Britsin Red Sox/Albany Yankees game at Beehive Field to see a vaunted matchup of Frankie Rodriguez versus former 1991 first pick of the draft Brien Taylor. I remember going over to Rodriguez in the stands to say hello and I remember shaking hands with him. He was charting pitches. I think it was during that game after he was out of the game. What I know for sure is that both starters got shelled and I think New Britain won 10-7. Taylor never did make the majors. An injury from a bar room brawl did him in. Frankie Rodriguez was supposedly a guy who could pitch or play SS. They traded Rodriguez in July 1995 to acquire/rent Rick Aguilera to close after Ken Ryan struggled mightily as a closer and Stan Belinda was a lot better as a setup man. Liked getting Aguilera who was solid as a closer but didn't like giving up Rodriguez. Even though it was a rental it worked out well. Aguilera would return to Minnesota in 1996, but to go back to starting pitching. Rodriguez never amounted to much. He was overhyped. |
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 10, 2022 0:45:20 GMT -5
Rodriguez never amounted to much. He was overhyped. I mean, he pitched nearly 200 games in the majors and had a 13-win, 1.4 bWAR season when he was 23. He was certainly not just a Gammons hype guy, BA had him in their Top-40 four times and #9 overall in 1992. Injuries messed him up and he was out of organized ball by the time he was 28, so he definitely didn't have the career they were hoping for, but overhyped is off the mark. |
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 10, 2022 1:04:07 GMT -5
Rodriguez never amounted to much. He was overhyped. I mean, he pitched nearly 200 games in the majors and had a 13-win, 1.4 bWAR season when he was 23. He was certainly not just a Gammons hype guy, BA had him in their Top-40 four times and #9 overall in 1992. Injuries messed him up and he was out of organized ball by the time he was 28, so he definitely didn't have the career they were hoping for, but overhyped is off the mark. You're probably right, but I don't recall being bowled over by his minor league numbers. Well at least he was better than another Gammons favorite, Robinson Checo. |
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 10, 2022 9:21:54 GMT -5
At 20, Rodriguez finished second in the Eastern League in strikeouts (teammate Tim Vanegmond, who was 24, led the league. The next year he led the International League in Ks as a 21 year old, and he did it while walking only 2.9 per nine innings. Wisdom of throwing 186 Triple-A innings at that age aside, there's a reason folks were excited. No question he'd have debuted that August or September if the strike hadn't happened.
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