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Red Sox Sign LHP Jake Diekman
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Post by notstarboard on Mar 13, 2022 15:15:19 GMT -5
I'm just waiting to hear who the better option out there is... Gambling on Barnes seems less dangerous than it would be if Whitlock were not looking over his shoulder. Looks like Darwinson and Taylor will go to AAA and the Sox will have multiple paths toward having a solid bullpen. This makes no sense to me. Why would Taylor go to AAA when he's better than the guy we just signed?
Taylor (2021): 61 G, 47.2 IP, 2.83 FIP, 3.66 xFIP, 3.40 ERA, 4.27 xERA, 1.0 fWAR, 1.3 bWAR. Diekman (2021): 67 G, 60.2 IP, 4.46 FIP, 4.09 xFIP, 3.81 ERA, 4.51 xERA, -0.1 fWAR, 0.4 bWAR.
Taylor's 29 and Diekman's 35 too, so if anyone is likely to fall off, it's Diekman.
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I could see Darwinzon starting the year in AAA and I could also see someone getting traded (maybe even Taylor). I would be shocked for Taylor to start the year in AAA, though.
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Post by manfred on Mar 13, 2022 15:24:46 GMT -5
Gambling on Barnes seems less dangerous than it would be if Whitlock were not looking over his shoulder. Looks like Darwinson and Taylor will go to AAA and the Sox will have multiple paths toward having a solid bullpen. This makes no sense to me. Why would Taylor go to AAA when he's better than the guy we just signed?
Taylor (2021): 61 G, 47.2 IP, 2.83 FIP, 3.66 xFIP, 3.40 ERA, 4.27 xERA, 1.0 fWAR, 1.3 bWAR. Diekman (2021): 67 G, 60.2 IP, 4.46 FIP, 4.09 xFIP, 3.81 ERA, 4.51 xERA, -0.1 fWAR, 0.4 bWAR.
Taylor's 29 and Diekman's 35 too, so if anyone is likely to fall off, it's Diekman.
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I could see Darwinzon starting the year in AAA and I could also see someone getting traded (maybe even Taylor). I would be shocked for Taylor to start the year in AAA, though.
I think one reason is because they can. More pitching is better. If guys have options it gives the Sox, er, options. I also remain a Taylor skeptic. I wonder if the Sox are not quite as sold on him as some of you are? I mean, he’s ok. But I am not inking him into my opening day roster.
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conoz
New Member
Posts: 3
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Post by conoz on Mar 13, 2022 15:36:22 GMT -5
We need Tepera to finish off bullpen.I think we will be making trade with all the lefthanders we got. The bats …let’s get some bats!
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Post by notstarboard on Mar 13, 2022 15:37:52 GMT -5
This makes no sense to me. Why would Taylor go to AAA when he's better than the guy we just signed?
Taylor (2021): 61 G, 47.2 IP, 2.83 FIP, 3.66 xFIP, 3.40 ERA, 4.27 xERA, 1.0 fWAR, 1.3 bWAR. Diekman (2021): 67 G, 60.2 IP, 4.46 FIP, 4.09 xFIP, 3.81 ERA, 4.51 xERA, -0.1 fWAR, 0.4 bWAR.
Taylor's 29 and Diekman's 35 too, so if anyone is likely to fall off, it's Diekman.
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I could see Darwinzon starting the year in AAA and I could also see someone getting traded (maybe even Taylor). I would be shocked for Taylor to start the year in AAA, though.
I think one reason is because they can. More pitching is better. If guys have options it gives the Sox, er, options. I also remain a Taylor skeptic. I wonder if the Sox are not quite as sold on him as some of you are? I mean, he’s ok. But I am not inking him into my opening day roster. On the one hand, this makes sense if the Sox aren't that high on Taylor. On the other hand, the deal for Diekman is reportedly a multi-year one, so it's not like the plan is to DFA him and call up Taylor if things go south. Do we really intend to keep a reliever like Taylor, who should have trade value even if the Sox are bearish on him, in AAA as insurance, just because we can? Baseball Trade Values is obviously not the most scientific of sources, but it weighs Taylor on the level of Groome + Seabold or Mata + Rafaela. I don't think those are realistic, but still. Seems like a steep price to pay for insurance.
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Post by manfred on Mar 13, 2022 15:46:17 GMT -5
I think one reason is because they can. More pitching is better. If guys have options it gives the Sox, er, options. I also remain a Taylor skeptic. I wonder if the Sox are not quite as sold on him as some of you are? I mean, he’s ok. But I am not inking him into my opening day roster. On the one hand, this makes sense if the Sox aren't that high on Taylor. On the other hand, the deal for Diekman is reportedly a multi-year one, so it's not like the plan is to DFA him and call up Taylor if things go south. Do we really intend to keep a reliever like Taylor, who should have trade value even if the Sox are bearish on him, in AAA as insurance, just because we can? Baseball Trade Values is obviously not the most scientific of sources, but it weighs Taylor on the level of Groome + Seabold or Mata + Rafaela. I don't think those are realistic, but still. Seems like a steep price to pay for insurance. Well, the off season has a long way to go. And I don’t think Taylor would only slot behind Diekman. A lot can happen. Starter gets hurt, Wacha to rotation, Taylor up. On and on… I feel like it is a mantra here: can never have too much pitching.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Mar 13, 2022 16:04:18 GMT -5
Honestly I don't get all this talk about Taylor.
Last year the Sox pen was pretty cringeworthy. Even the postseason games they won featured blown late inning leads.
Barnes was spectacular then horrendous.
Whitlock was great year round.
After a skittish April, Taylor was highly reliable and effective and for a 2 month stretch pretty damn dominant, and he was easily the only reliable lefty in the pen, including the postseason
I frankly don't think that either Diekman or Strahm are necessarily better than Taylor although Dieckman dodges bats more, even though some of those dodges are walks too and he's probably steadier against righties.
I have no doubt that Diekman and Strahm are upgrades to Darwinzon and Davis. They'll probably keep 7 or 8 guys in the pen and I'm guessing Strahm probably fits in the middle innings and for longer stints. I'd say Taylor and Diekman are the two late inning lefties.
I don't think these moves make Taylor expendable at all. They have room for all 3.
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Post by wkdbigsoxfan on Mar 13, 2022 16:33:27 GMT -5
With so may swingy, 3-inning type guys on the staff - plus Bloom's stated view that it made sense to use some pitches in such in-between roles - I'm just not even thinking about the pitching staff in terms of "starters" vs. "relievers." I think it makes more sense to just figure out how many innings you can get out of each guy. Whitlock, Houck, Wacha, Hill... those guys might all end up closer to 100 IP than a 60 IP traditional reliever or 180 IP traditional starter. (Also, I am... seeing absolutely nothing appealing about Kennedy.)
There is Kimbrel (ducks) to trade for. Could likely get him for nothing too
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Mar 13, 2022 17:04:16 GMT -5
the many doubleheaders should mean that the Sox are going to have a deeper number of bullpen arms than a normal year. Guys that have options will be even more valuable. I don't look at this year as a normal bullpen year. The more arms the better. I will let you folks determine who is good and not good, and be ready to pounce when you are wrong.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2022 17:33:08 GMT -5
This makes no sense to me. Why would Taylor go to AAA when he's better than the guy we just signed?
Taylor (2021): 61 G, 47.2 IP, 2.83 FIP, 3.66 xFIP, 3.40 ERA, 4.27 xERA, 1.0 fWAR, 1.3 bWAR. Diekman (2021): 67 G, 60.2 IP, 4.46 FIP, 4.09 xFIP, 3.81 ERA, 4.51 xERA, -0.1 fWAR, 0.4 bWAR.
Taylor's 29 and Diekman's 35 too, so if anyone is likely to fall off, it's Diekman.
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I could see Darwinzon starting the year in AAA and I could also see someone getting traded (maybe even Taylor). I would be shocked for Taylor to start the year in AAA, though.
I think one reason is because they can. More pitching is better. If guys have options it gives the Sox, er, options. I also remain a Taylor skeptic. I wonder if the Sox are not quite as sold on him as some of you are? I mean, he’s ok. But I am not inking him into my opening day roster. Of the 2021 team, Darwinzon would be the first player I would send down to AAA. He has great stuff, but very little control. Taylor should stay along with the two lefties they just acquired.
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jimoh
Veteran
Posts: 3,977
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Post by jimoh on Mar 13, 2022 18:14:50 GMT -5
I did not realize, but see now, that generally, neither Diekman nor Strahm have much of a platoon split, so their handedness is not as much of a factor.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2022 19:27:47 GMT -5
I did not realize, but see now, that generally, neither Diekman nor Strahm have much of a platoon split, so their handedness is not as much of a factor. That is a good thing considering the three batter rule…
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jimoh
Veteran
Posts: 3,977
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Post by jimoh on Mar 13, 2022 20:06:47 GMT -5
I did not realize, but see now, that generally, neither Diekman nor Strahm have much of a platoon split, so their handedness is not as much of a factor. That is a good thing considering the three batter rule… By contrast, Josh Taylor is .282 .374 .427 .801 lifetime vs rhb, .174 .249 .230 .478 vs. lhb In 2021, .327 .429 .455 .884 vs rhb, .146 .222 .159 .381 vs. lhb
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Post by jimed14 on Mar 14, 2022 7:19:20 GMT -5
It’s taking an awfully big risk relying on Matt Barnes to be who he was in the first half of last season. The bullpen is in a state of flux with Whitlock and Houck’s role up in the air, but a back end of Barnes, Diekman, and…Brasier? Taylor? That’s not a bullpen I’d trust to hold down games for a full season. Don’t get me wrong, I like the Diekman and Strahm signings but it’s all going to depend on Houck and Whitlock. If Barnes was a free agent not on the Red Sox, I bet all of us would want to sign him to close.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Mar 14, 2022 7:59:54 GMT -5
It’s taking an awfully big risk relying on Matt Barnes to be who he was in the first half of last season. The bullpen is in a state of flux with Whitlock and Houck’s role up in the air, but a back end of Barnes, Diekman, and…Brasier? Taylor? That’s not a bullpen I’d trust to hold down games for a full season. Don’t get me wrong, I like the Diekman and Strahm signings but it’s all going to depend on Houck and Whitlock. If Barnes was a free agent not on the Red Sox, I bet all of us would want to sign him to close. If nobody watched him post-all-star break, I'd agree, but seeing that and how they didn't even want to put him on the post-season roster, I would think if we're paying attention to other teams and Barnes was going through it with some other team, some of us might see that as a red flag. I mean, I watch the post-season so I would have noticed if a team wasn't using its closer and find out the reason why. I think it's silly not to think that Barnes is risky as far as being a closer goes and that it wouldn't be a good idea to have a viable backup plan, which I hope Whitlock is not part of, as I'd rather see him get an opportunity to start, something they really need because they let E-Rod go.
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Post by voiceofreason on Mar 14, 2022 8:13:23 GMT -5
It is interesting for me to grasp the value of an ok starter like Pivetta having more value than most closers. I get the innings thing but as far as salaries and perception goes a good closer is seems to be more important. The way Pivetta performed out of the pen and his energy it would look to me like he could be a good candidate. And out of all of those pseudo starters the Sox have I think I would prefer to see him in the closer role over Houck and Whitlock, could Wacha be a candidate?
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Mar 14, 2022 8:40:41 GMT -5
It is interesting for me to grasp the value of an ok starter like Pivetta having more value than most closers. I get the innings thing but as far as salaries and perception goes a good closer is seems to be more important. The way Pivetta performed out of the pen and his energy it would look to me like he could be a good candidate. And out of all of those pseudo starters the Sox have I think I would prefer to see him in the closer role over Houck and Whitlock, could Wacha be a candidate? Good thought. He would be a candidate. The issue with him is that he's probably the guy most likely to throw a no-hitter on the Red Sox staff. I keep thinking there's a next gear there for him to find so he can be more than a back-end starter, but he has had a lot of chances to establish himself as a frontline starter and has yet to really do it. This is unlike Houck who has barely started with his starting pitching chances and Whitlock who has yet to start in the majors. Those two should be given much longer rope to establish themselves as starters. With Pivetta, maybe they turn to him to close if need be? He did look like an adrenaline junkie when he pitched in the post-season. But then again, he had an awesome start in Game 4, the kind of tantalizing start that makes you think there's a front line starter in there somewhere....
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jimoh
Veteran
Posts: 3,977
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Post by jimoh on Mar 14, 2022 9:07:39 GMT -5
If Barnes was a free agent not on the Red Sox, I bet all of us would want to sign him to close. If nobody watched him post-all-star break, I'd agree, but seeing that and how they didn't even want to put him on the post-season roster, I would think if we're paying attention to other teams and Barnes was going through it with some other team, some of us might see that as a red flag. I mean, I watch the post-season so I would have noticed if a team wasn't using its closer and find out the reason why. I think it's silly not to think that Barnes is risky as far as being a closer goes and that it wouldn't be a good idea to have a viable backup plan, which I hope Whitlock is not part of, as I'd rather see him get an opportunity to start, something they really need because they let E-Rod go. I think it is plausible to claim that the Red Sox seem to be fond of acquiring guys who performed poorly in part of the previous season, who they think are better than that. So I think they might well have acquired Batt Marnes from the Cubs if he had had both good and bad stretches last year.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Mar 14, 2022 9:13:08 GMT -5
Candidates to close
Barnes Diekman Whitlock Houck Some guy they haven't acquired yet.
Diekman is a good add and there's no reason to ring the "but where's the closer?" alarm quite yet. Based on Bloom's presser just now I don't get the sense they think they're done in the bullpen.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Mar 14, 2022 9:49:07 GMT -5
It’s taking an awfully big risk relying on Matt Barnes to be who he was in the first half of last season. The bullpen is in a state of flux with Whitlock and Houck’s role up in the air, but a back end of Barnes, Diekman, and…Brasier? Taylor? That’s not a bullpen I’d trust to hold down games for a full season. Don’t get me wrong, I like the Diekman and Strahm signings but it’s all going to depend on Houck and Whitlock. If Barnes was a free agent not on the Red Sox, I bet all of us would want to sign him to close. File that under what you don't see, you don't know. LOL. Having seen him, no, I don't want him closing. There has to be better choices.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2022 10:45:15 GMT -5
With so may swingy, 3-inning type guys on the staff - plus Bloom's stated view that it made sense to use some pitches in such in-between roles - I'm just not even thinking about the pitching staff in terms of "starters" vs. "relievers." I think it makes more sense to just figure out how many innings you can get out of each guy. Whitlock, Houck, Wacha, Hill... those guys might all end up closer to 100 IP than a 60 IP traditional reliever or 180 IP traditional starter.
(Also, I am... seeing absolutely nothing appealing about Kennedy.)
Bloom showed that this approach can work, and for that reason alone, the 37 relievers, spaghetti on the wall approach needs to be given a chance. Problem is that sometimes all you wind up with is spaghetti and a messy wall. I personally prefer a proven closer to a sloppy kitchen. Yes, the Red Sox have such a great track record of trading for a high leverage arm. Andrew Bailey Joel Hanrahan Mark Melancon and how could I forget Tyler Thornburg….add Carson Smith for good measure
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Post by julyanmorley on Mar 14, 2022 10:50:41 GMT -5
Are we sure this deal happened? Kinda weird that there's still no $ known. Maybe his agent is not proud of the deal.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2022 10:55:46 GMT -5
This makes no sense to me. Why would Taylor go to AAA when he's better than the guy we just signed?
Taylor (2021): 61 G, 47.2 IP, 2.83 FIP, 3.66 xFIP, 3.40 ERA, 4.27 xERA, 1.0 fWAR, 1.3 bWAR. Diekman (2021): 67 G, 60.2 IP, 4.46 FIP, 4.09 xFIP, 3.81 ERA, 4.51 xERA, -0.1 fWAR, 0.4 bWAR.
Taylor's 29 and Diekman's 35 too, so if anyone is likely to fall off, it's Diekman.
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I could see Darwinzon starting the year in AAA and I could also see someone getting traded (maybe even Taylor). I would be shocked for Taylor to start the year in AAA, though.
I think one reason is because they can. More pitching is better. If guys have options it gives the Sox, er, options. I also remain a Taylor skeptic. I wonder if the Sox are not quite as sold on him as some of you are? I mean, he’s ok. But I am not inking him into my opening day roster. Keep your white out or eraser handy then….
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2022 11:02:30 GMT -5
There is Kimbrel (ducks) to trade for. Could likely get him for nothing too Kimbrel is a definite NO
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Post by voiceofreason on Mar 14, 2022 14:46:51 GMT -5
It is interesting for me to grasp the value of an ok starter like Pivetta having more value than most closers. I get the innings thing but as far as salaries and perception goes a good closer is seems to be more important. The way Pivetta performed out of the pen and his energy it would look to me like he could be a good candidate. And out of all of those pseudo starters the Sox have I think I would prefer to see him in the closer role over Houck and Whitlock, could Wacha be a candidate? Good thought. He would be a candidate. The issue with him is that he's probably the guy most likely to throw a no-hitter on the Red Sox staff. I keep thinking there's a next gear there for him to find so he can be more than a back-end starter, but he has had a lot of chances to establish himself as a frontline starter and has yet to really do it. This is unlike Houck who has barely started with his starting pitching chances and Whitlock who has yet to start in the majors. Those two should be given much longer rope to establish themselves as starters. With Pivetta, maybe they turn to him to close if need be? He did look like an adrenaline junkie when he pitched in the post-season. But then again, he had an awesome start in Game 4, the kind of tantalizing start that makes you think there's a front line starter in there somewhere.... My thinking is similar to yours, but. Pivetta has had years to prove he can be good, was given up on by Philly and last season was his best as a backend starter. He has never shown the promise that Houck and Whitlock showed last year. Sure they both need to develop a 3rd pitch and prove they can do it but they have at least been dominant to a degree. If Pivetta has another gear that would be awesome but taking a look at his career would cause one to doubt that and think last yr was a high point. He could turn his career around as a closer though. But hey who knows maybe he can learn to harness that adrenaline from the playoffs and take the next step. I like the spaghetti on the wall approach and think enough will stick to make the staff a strength of the team. But if they don't do something big to improve that OF soon they don't have much of a chance against the 3 headed monster that the AL East is.
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Mar 14, 2022 15:14:38 GMT -5
Candidates to close Barnes Diekman Whitlock Houck Some guy they haven't acquired yet. Diekman is a good add and there's no reason to ring the "but where's the closer?" alarm quite yet. Based on Bloom's presser just now I don't get the sense they think they're done in the bullpen. Looks like Pivetta has picked up another vote from @vor...
Maybe we should open the "Who should close in '22" poll again!
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