SoxProspects News
|
|
|
|
Legal
Forum Ground Rules
The views expressed by the members of this Forum do not necessarily reflect the views of SoxProspects, LLC.
© 2003-2024 SoxProspects, LLC
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home | Search | My Profile | Messages | Members | Help |
Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
|
Post by wOBA Fett on Dec 13, 2022 21:04:18 GMT -5
Great question on the last podcast about frontloading deals as part of a CBT loophole that allows teams to reset the AAV after a trade. While I still understand the concept, I struggle to understand the Tax math as Hosmer is still showing a 5.35MM cap hit despite the Red Sox only paying $750,000 per year.
Another interesting loophole to consider would be for the Red Sox to grant a player equity in the ownership of the team. According to Major League Rule 20(e):
No manager or player on a Club shall, directly or indirectly, own stock or any other proprietary interest or have any financial interest in the Club by which the manager or player is employed except under an agreement approved by the Commissioner, which agreement shall provide for the immediate sale (and the terms thereof) of such stock or other proprietary interest or financial interest in the event of the manager or player’s transfer (if a player or playing manager) to or joining another Club. A manager or player having any such interest in the Club by which the manager or player is employed shall be ineligible to play for or manage any other Club in that League while, in the opinion of the Commissioner, such interest is retained by or for the manager or player, directly or indirectly.
Although Commissioner approval is required for a player to receive equity, I can envision a world where Commissioner Manfred would be willing to consider this idea as long you meet the other requirements (i.e. Selling when getting traded).
Anyone else have creative CBT tax strategies we can workshop?
|
|
|
Post by notstarboard on Dec 13, 2022 22:22:34 GMT -5
I think Spotrac is just wrong on the LT hit - noticed that recently too. @redsoxpayroll on Twitter has him making the minimum, which is what it should be.
|
|
|
Post by notstarboard on Dec 13, 2022 22:51:11 GMT -5
In terms of strategies, I'd like to propose a wrinkle to the front-loading salary idea. Let's say you want to sign a guy to a 2/20 contract. Instead of offering him $19.25 the first year and $750k the second year, you offer him literally any amount of money the first year, and make his second year a team option year with a buyout equal to the second-year salary. For example, you could pay him $10 million the first year, and have a $10 million dollar option for year two with a $10 million buyout. The end result, in theory, is a player with a $20 million luxury tax hit the first season, and a $0 luxury tax hit the second season.
I don't know if it's allowed to have a buyout equal the salary. I could see having to modify this such that salary - buyout = minimum salary, for example. If there's no rule about buyout size, though, we might be able to go even further if we wanted. Imagine a $10 million contract with a $15 million buyout. You'd then in theory have a $-5 million luxury tax salary hit for the second season of the deal. It feels like there's gotta be a rule, though, so I'm assuming that a $750k luxury tax hit for year two is the best you're going to do.
We know that front-loading AAV in the typical way is nice because it can give a player more trade value. You'd only want to engage in these buyout shenanigans for a player you strictly do not intend to trade. The main benefit I see is allowing a team to move payroll around depending on their luxury tax situation.
For example, let's imagine we have a team that is projected to go $750k under the luxury tax for the next three years. Everyone on the team is under contract for the next three years except for Johnny Baseball, who the team desperately wants to sign to a 3/30 contract. Not wishing to pay the luxury tax three years in a row, though, our GM decides to offer him the following contract:
2/20, with a 1/10 team option and $9.25 million buyout. In terms of AAV, this translates to a $14.6 million AAV for the first two seasons, followed by a $750k AAV for the third season. The end result: the team only pays the luxury tax in the first two seasons but just barely avoids it in year 3, allowing them to reset the tax penalties.
|
|
|
Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 14, 2022 7:05:53 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure Liam Hendriks has a buyout on a club option that's equal to that final season's salary, effectively making him free that season for CBT purposes.
|
|
|
Post by notstarboard on Dec 14, 2022 11:25:58 GMT -5
Why is it that all of these megadeals arent frontloading money to some extent?
Like, take Bogaerts' deal. Why not set that up with something like $34.7 million for the first 8 years, league minimum for the last three years? That requires the owners pay a bit more, since money is worth less later and opportunity cost is a thing, but it would allow them to easily trade these players away at the ends of their contracts. That means avoiding the luxury tax concerns with the last few years of megadeals, while also using those last few years to keep the AAV lower.
Like, what's the risk of signing Devers to like a 16/320 deal, but frontloading the salary such that the last six years are league minimum salary? The Sox get $20 million AAV for all of Devers prime, and then when he starts to suck at the end of his career, you can easily trade him to someone; no risk in a league minimum salary, just like we have with Hosmer.
Is the only risk an updated CBA that patches this loophole? Or I suppose a career-ending injury or ludicrous performance drop off that makes the player impossible to trade at the end of the deal even on a league minimum salary? Feels like an obvious way for owners to flex financial muscle and field the best possible team within the CBT framework. Maybe players don't like deals that have a near certainty of them getting traded at the end, even if it means getting paid more?
|
|
|
Post by jphelan on Dec 14, 2022 11:34:37 GMT -5
Why is it that all of these megadeals arent frontloading money to some extent? Like, take Bogaerts' deal. Why not set that up with something like $34.8 million for the first 8 years, league minimum for the last three years? That requires the owners pay a bit more, since money is worth less later and opportunity cost is a thing, but it would allow them to easily trade these players away at the ends of their contracts. That means avoiding the luxury tax concerns with the last few years of megadeals, while also using those last few years to keep the AAV lower. Like, what's the risk of signing Devers to like a 16/320 deal, but frontload the salary such that the last six years are league minimum salary? The Sox get $20 million AAV for all of Devers prime, and then when he starts to suck at the end of his career, you can easily trade him to someone; no risk in a league minimum salary, just like we have with Hosmer. Is the only risk an updated CBA that patches this loophole? Or I suppose a career-ending injury or ludicrous performance drop off that makes the player impossible to trade at the end of the deal even on a league minimum salary? Feels like an obvious way for owners to flex financial muscle and field the best possible team within that CBT framework. Maybe players don't like deals that have a near certainty of them getting traded at the end, even if it means getting paid more? At the point where the players would be traded they would have 10 / 5 rights so trading might not be easy. Also, the Commissioner's Office may not allow CBT AAV manipulation like that. Some outlets were talking about the proposed Padres contract with Aaron Judge ($400m over 14 years) and how MLB would veto that contract as a CBT manipulation. I wonder if they would view extremely frontloaded contracts in the same light.
|
|
|
Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 14, 2022 12:46:17 GMT -5
Ah, this might be it.
Need commissioner approval for a pay decrease of more than 80%. He'd probably put the kibosh on anything egregious.
|
|
|
Post by tjb21 on Dec 14, 2022 15:33:24 GMT -5
Ah, this might be it. Need commissioner approval for a pay decrease of more than 80%. He'd probably put the kibosh on anything egregious. 80% would still be easy to game the system, right?
|
|
|
Post by joshuacoffee on Dec 14, 2022 15:34:07 GMT -5
1. I think the idea of "you can just trade him away" seriously underestimates a players desire control, or at least have an idea of, where they will be. Not only, as noted, are there 10/5 rights to deal with, I'm not sure structuring a deal in such a way that you are making it obvious to the player that you are going to trade them down the line is a great way to lure a free agent in. 2. If a player starts to really suck, a team won't take them in a trade even if they are free. There's no motivation to help out a competitor for no return. So, there is still a risk. 3. As also noted, MLB can, and almost assuredly would, not allow a crazy contract. I doubt the Player's Association would be all that happy about it either, though they obviously have a little less power than the MLB office in these matters. 4. The owners don't want to pay more upfront. Money now costs more than money later.
Bonus: 5. This is actually a strategy that I use not too infrequently in my OOTP Baseball games. I believe there is a limit built in to disallow too larger of a disparity from year to year, but I push it to the limit. Since it's not my money, or even real money, I don't care that money now is more expensive than money later and I like the flexibility of being able to move declining players on the back-end of contracts easier. And the AI doesn't seem to have anything programmed into it that makes players averse to heavily frontloading contracts. But ya, not real world variables there.
|
|
TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
|
Post by TearsIn04 on Dec 14, 2022 15:45:53 GMT -5
I want to see the Red Sox take every opportunity to earn extra picks by timing the call-up of top young players. I believe Casas can generate an additional pick for us in the 2024 draft based on his 2023 performance and the timing of his 2022 call-up. Bello, OTOH, was called up too early due to the injuries on the pitching staff, I believe.
|
|
|
Post by 0ap0 on Dec 15, 2022 9:15:36 GMT -5
4. The owners don't want to pay more upfront. Money now costs more than money later. Number 4 here isn't really a thing for these purposes. Most of these games have to do with surtaxes and other things extraneous to the deal between the team and the player -- if you can game those then the amount of compensation the player agrees to costs the team less to produce and it's a win-win as far as the team and the player are concerned. This isn't that. While yes, money now is worth more than money later, that's true in equal part to both the team and the player. A player will demand a higher $$ number if those are deferred dollars and will be satisfied with a lower number if they're front-loaded. There's no free cash being gained or lost to "the system" so point 4 here is zero-sum. All the rest sounds right to me. Especially the part about "it wouldn't be allowed". We all remember when we signed A-Rod, right?
|
|
|
Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 15, 2022 11:59:31 GMT -5
I want to see the Red Sox take every opportunity to earn extra picks by timing the call-up of top young players. I believe Casas can generate an additional pick for us in the 2024 draft based on his 2023 performance and the timing of his 2022 call-up. Bello, OTOH, was called up too early due to the injuries on the pitching staff, I believe. You can earn your team picks by winning rookie of the year or finishing top 3 for the MVP or Cy. In other words, it's REALLY hard. If we're talking holding a guy back for a week then fine but the chances are remote enough that I'm not sure this is something that should play into their thinking midseason.
|
|
TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
|
Post by TearsIn04 on Dec 15, 2022 22:14:49 GMT -5
I want to see the Red Sox take every opportunity to earn extra picks by timing the call-up of top young players. I believe Casas can generate an additional pick for us in the 2024 draft based on his 2023 performance and the timing of his 2022 call-up. Bello, OTOH, was called up too early due to the injuries on the pitching staff, I believe. You can earn your team picks by winning rookie of the year or finishing top 3 for the MVP or Cy. In other words, it's REALLY hard. If we're talking holding a guy back for a week then fine but the chances are remote enough that I'm not sure this is something that should play into their thinking midseason. It's definitely hard, but I look at it as you can't win if you don't play. Perhaps Casas, Rafaela, Yorke or Mayer wins ROY in the next three seasons and we get an extra pick. The more of your top kids whose arrival in The Show you're able to time, the better your chances of picking up an extra pick once a decade or so. It's worth the shot because the rules have titled away from big-market teams so much in the last decade. Looking back at drafts when Theo Epstein was here, we had 5 R1 and R1-S picks in 2005, four in 2006, three in 2010, and four in 2011 with no limit on draft spending. I miss those days.
|
|
|
Post by Coreno on Dec 16, 2022 0:10:01 GMT -5
Ah, this might be it. Need commissioner approval for a pay decrease of more than 80%. He'd probably put the kibosh on anything egregious. I thought this was just for renewing contracts of pre-arb guys.
|
|
|
Post by Jimmy on Dec 16, 2022 0:24:25 GMT -5
Why is it that all of these megadeals arent frontloading money to some extent? Like, take Bogaerts' deal. Why not set that up with something like $34.7 million for the first 8 years, league minimum for the last three years? That requires the owners pay a bit more, since money is worth less later and opportunity cost is a thing, but it would allow them to easily trade these players away at the ends of their contracts. That means avoiding the luxury tax concerns with the last few years of megadeals, while also using those last few years to keep the AAV lower. Like, what's the risk of signing Devers to like a 16/320 deal, but frontloading the salary such that the last six years are league minimum salary? The Sox get $20 million AAV for all of Devers prime, and then when he starts to suck at the end of his career, you can easily trade him to someone; no risk in a league minimum salary, just like we have with Hosmer. Is the only risk an updated CBA that patches this loophole? Or I suppose a career-ending injury or ludicrous performance drop off that makes the player impossible to trade at the end of the deal even on a league minimum salary? Feels like an obvious way for owners to flex financial muscle and field the best possible team within the CBT framework. Maybe players don't like deals that have a near certainty of them getting traded at the end, even if it means getting paid more? I think it’s due to the Net Present Value of the money…. the NPV of Xanders 11/280 contract at 8% returns (conservative) is $180M. For the same contract but with all the value paid out in the first 6 years and the rest league minimum would be 11/229 So either Xander would have to leave $51M cash on the table or the team would have to lose $51M on the bottom line. You could argue the player should care equally about the NPV and leave the $51M on the table, but I’m not sure it’s appealing for them to pass up guaranteed 8%+ returns.
|
|
|
Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 16, 2022 8:31:05 GMT -5
Ah, this might be it. Need commissioner approval for a pay decrease of more than 80%. He'd probably put the kibosh on anything egregious. I thought this was just for renewing contracts of pre-arb guys. Same but the language isn't necessarily so limited? At any rate, my guess is the commissioner's office would not allow a contract that was so wonky, and that the real answer why this wouldn't happen is that no team owner would go for that.
|
|
|