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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Jan 8, 2023 11:22:35 GMT -5
Not sure he deserved a raise Agree. Seems like an overpay. Still, only 1 year, but I would've preferred an incentive-laden deal. Kiké was worth $38.8M on his previous 2-year contract, and that's not including the 2021 post-season.
(FG has it only $35.5M, but I'm adjusting for his good situational hitting. He has 12.1 fWAR in his career, but 15.1 adjusted.)
But I didn't hunt down this thread to talk about that. Which one of these numbers is not like the others, and can you guess what they mean? 5 5 11 1 6
The 11 is a clue, right? It's the years of control left on the likely 1 through 5 hitters come mid-season: Yoshida, Story, Devers, Turner, Casas.
We are really set for LHB for a while. For RHB, Story is it. Kiké and Turner are signed for this year only, and Turner is 38.
If you look at top 30 prospects with an ETA earlier than late 2005, and that are either projected elite bats or bat-first prospects, you have Meyer, Casas, Valdez, Kavadas, and Abreu swinging from the left side, and lonely Nick Yorke swinging from the right. And it's unclear that he'll be a 2 or 4 hitter when he arrives, or where he'll play.
Furthermore, if this year's FA crop was any indicator, this may be an MLB-wide thing: plenty enough good LHB, fewer good RHB.
But the 2021 Kiké was a legit cleanup hitter (even if they strangely hit him first). A return to that form is a possibility ... and would be a heck of a lot more important than it might seem, given how thin we (and maybe many other clubs) are from that side of the plate.
So all eyes this year should be on Kiké and Yorke, and on Rafaela as a potential better-than-average 6 hitter, and of course we'll be watching Bleis and Jordan for longer-range solutions to this problem.
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Post by scottysmalls on Jan 8, 2023 11:34:24 GMT -5
Kiké has supposedly been involved a lot in recruiting free agents this off-season, especially Turner. Was good with this extension at the time but the way the off-season has played out it looks really good now. Hope for his sake Kiké has a great year and gets a big pay day next year.
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Post by crossedsabres8 on Jan 8, 2023 14:49:38 GMT -5
If he has a 2021 season, he could be in line for a big payday. As mentioned, there aren't many right handed batter in FA next year, and there are very few centerfielders.
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Post by humanbeingbean on Jan 8, 2023 15:56:39 GMT -5
While this thread is bumped up
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Post by greatscottcooper on Jan 8, 2023 17:45:10 GMT -5
If he has a 2021 season, he could be in line for a big payday. As mentioned, there aren't many right handed batter in FA next year, and there are very few centerfielders. If he has a 2021 season and shows he can do that when healthy 2 out of the last 3 years I see no reason not to give him a QO
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TearsIn04
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Post by TearsIn04 on Jan 8, 2023 19:41:42 GMT -5
It would be nice to see him hold down CF at a 3-WAR level for at least one year beyond this one, so that they can use Rafaela in RF starting in 2024. That would buy some for Bleis to progress.
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Post by runner on Jan 8, 2023 22:27:00 GMT -5
It would be nice to see him hold down CF at a 3-WAR level for at least one year beyond this one, so that they can use Rafaela in RF starting in 2024. That would buy some for Bleis to progress. Yeah, as much I want to dream on the next CF, Kiké might be the safest and easiest solution to the problem the next 3 years. The problem is the age, and now the health too. If he could be what he was in LA for the next 3 years (not good at hitting RHP, lefty masher), while playing great defense in CF, then that isn't terrible. The problem with Rafaela is that we still don't even know who he is as a hitter. Had a hot year last year with the bat, but he could hit .200 in AA this year and it wouldn't surprise me. All long-term solutions for Rafaela stepping in by 2024 get thrown out the door at that point.
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Post by oldfaithful2019 on Jan 8, 2023 22:39:32 GMT -5
If he has a 2021 season, he could be in line for a big payday. As mentioned, there aren't many right handed batter in FA next year, and there are very few centerfielders. If he has a 2021 season and shows he can do that when healthy 2 out of the last 3 years I see no reason not to give him a QO The QO after 2023 could be 20 mil. That would be way to far of a reach for Kiki, even for one season.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 8, 2023 22:57:33 GMT -5
It would be nice to see him hold down CF at a 3-WAR level for at least one year beyond this one, so that they can use Rafaela in RF starting in 2024. That would buy some for Bleis to progress. Yeah, as much I want to dream on the next CF, Kiké might be the safest and easiest solution to the problem the next 3 years. The problem is the age, and now the health too. If he could be what he was in LA for the next 3 years (not good at hitting RHP, lefty masher), while playing great defense in CF, then that isn't terrible. The problem with Rafaela is that we still don't even know who he is as a hitter. Had a hot year last year with the bat, but he could hit .200 in AA this year and it wouldn't surprise me. All long-term solutions for Rafaela stepping in by 2024 get thrown out the door at that point. Anything's possible but I dont think Rafaels will regress that badly. His approach needs work and could easily prevent him from being more than a 9th place hitter but his defense is already major league and then some. I can't expect Kiké to continue to excel defensively and he's already had injuries that have hindered his offense, not that he has been spectacular other than the 2nd half 2021. I suspect the Sox will need Rafaela sooner than later, but he'll have to hit his way up.
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Post by runner on Jan 9, 2023 10:53:14 GMT -5
Yeah, as much I want to dream on the next CF, Kiké might be the safest and easiest solution to the problem the next 3 years. The problem is the age, and now the health too. If he could be what he was in LA for the next 3 years (not good at hitting RHP, lefty masher), while playing great defense in CF, then that isn't terrible. The problem with Rafaela is that we still don't even know who he is as a hitter. Had a hot year last year with the bat, but he could hit .200 in AA this year and it wouldn't surprise me. All long-term solutions for Rafaela stepping in by 2024 get thrown out the door at that point. Anything's possible but I dont think Rafaels will regress that badly. His approach needs work and could easily prevent him from being more than a 9th place hitter but his defense is already major league and then some. I can't expect Kiké to continue to excel defensively and he's already had injuries that have hindered his offense, not that he has been spectacular other than the 2nd half 2021. I suspect the Sox will need Rafaela sooner than later, but he'll have to hit his way up. Not rooting against Rafaela, but it's interesting that there's maybe hints he could be available in trades. Maybe the Sox might think the regression is coming and his helium as a prospect drops. This could be the highest point of Rafaela's value if the bat flames out in AAA this year or something. Just like Jeter Downs in 2021.
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Post by curtisw on Jan 9, 2023 10:59:22 GMT -5
I hear what you’re saying runner, but I’m not sure I would say there’s helium exactly. There have actually been reports that while they are more willing to part with him than Casas, Bello, Mayer, that they really don’t want to trade him. I think they would have to be extremely excited with the return.
To me, all signs do point to the Red Sox having some real faith he can produce enough with the bat to be able to be the club’s starting CF in 2024 and beyond. Of course he might flame out but to me it’s clear they are pretty excited and they must feel like they can work with his plus bat to ball skills and cut the chase rate enough to be able to provide some real value.
I personally do feel like Rafaela is exciting enough that I am reticent to move him. Even though I know he is our only feasible, really useful chip right now. It’s been way too long since we have produced a good MLB outfielder and chase rate notwithstanding he looks like he could be it. If I am going to bet on a guy to bring down an ugly chase rate, it would be the guy who has shown huge improvements year after year and has elite bat to ball skills
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Post by greatscottcooper on Jan 19, 2023 11:52:10 GMT -5
If he has a 2021 season and shows he can do that when healthy 2 out of the last 3 years I see no reason not to give him a QO The QO after 2023 could be 20 mil. That would be way to far of a reach for Kiki, even for one season. If they're going over the cap next year who cares about one year money? also, if what I said actually came to frution, how much would a guy in FA be worth who over 3 seasons puts up 4 WAR+ What does a 3-4 War player get in FA? And for one year, and given how bad the FA classes have come to be, I don' tthink that's a reach at all. This is all hypothetical on a good 2023 campaign of course.
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Post by Guidas on Jan 19, 2023 12:25:14 GMT -5
The QO after 2023 could be 20 mil. That would be way to far of a reach for Kiki, even for one season. If they're going over the cap next year who cares about one year money? also, if what I said actually came to frution, how much would a guy in FA be worth who over 3 seasons puts up 4 WAR+ What does a 3-4 War player get in FA? And for one year, and given how bad the FA classes have come to be, I don' tthink that's a reach at all. This is all hypothetical on a good 2023 campaign of course. Well in 2019 he put up a 0.7 fWAR; in 2020 in a 60 game season he was 0.1 fWAR (so 0.3 if you extrapolate out), in 2021 he was 3.9 fWAR - a career year and in 2022 he was 0.5 fWAR. So if you're looking for a repeat of 2021, he will have to spend most of his time in CF where his defensive metrics play better than his SS work, and he'd have to play absolutely out of his mind again and defy the aging curve. So, if an evaluator thought they could get average or average to occasional plus D from him in CF and he could somehow get a .330+ OBP and 20 HRs, yeah, that would be worth $20-25M AAV a year. But again, his age and unevenness works against that (along with needing another career year, which is unlikely).
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Post by greatscottcooper on Jan 19, 2023 12:33:52 GMT -5
If they're going over the cap next year who cares about one year money? also, if what I said actually came to frution, how much would a guy in FA be worth who over 3 seasons puts up 4 WAR+ What does a 3-4 War player get in FA? And for one year, and given how bad the FA classes have come to be, I don' tthink that's a reach at all. This is all hypothetical on a good 2023 campaign of course. Well in 2019 he put up a 0.7 fWAR; in 2020 in a 60 game season he was 0.1 fWAR (so 0.3 if you extrapolate out), in 2021 he was 3.9 fWAR - a career year and in 2022 he was 0.5 fWAR. So if you're looking for a repeat of 2021, he will have to spend most of his time in CF where his defensive metrics play better than his SS work, and he'd have to play absolutely out of his mind again and defy the aging curve. So, if an evaluator thought they could get average or average to occasional plus D from him in CF and he could somehow get a .330+ OBP and 20 HRs, yeah, that would be worth $20-25M AAV a year. But again, his age and unevenness works against that (along with needing another career year, which is unlikely). Teams also have a recency bias, having another stellar campaign in 2023 (showing he can do it again) is going to pay dividends for him. Obviously he ain't gett big money but even if it was an overpay by $5-$10 million so what? The outfield doesn't look much better in 2024 with Verdugo likely gone and nothing in the system that really looks likely to take over from now until then other than Rafaella. And what if he doesn't hit? what If Mayer looks more like a 2025 SS and not a guy ready to hit the ground running to start 2024? or even mid 2024? Having an extra year of a guy like Kiké would be perfect for this roster in 2024. That is why I offer him the QO if he has another great season in 2023 because I don't mind him taking that money, and if the Sox are going to go over the cap in 2024 anywyas then I think it's fine even if it's a small overpay for just 1 year.
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Post by Jimmy on Jan 19, 2023 13:13:50 GMT -5
Well in 2019 he put up a 0.7 fWAR; in 2020 in a 60 game season he was 0.1 fWAR (so 0.3 if you extrapolate out), in 2021 he was 3.9 fWAR - a career year and in 2022 he was 0.5 fWAR. So if you're looking for a repeat of 2021, he will have to spend most of his time in CF where his defensive metrics play better than his SS work, and he'd have to play absolutely out of his mind again and defy the aging curve. So, if an evaluator thought they could get average or average to occasional plus D from him in CF and he could somehow get a .330+ OBP and 20 HRs, yeah, that would be worth $20-25M AAV a year. But again, his age and unevenness works against that (along with needing another career year, which is unlikely). Teams also have a recency bias, having another stellar campaign in 2023 (showing he can do it again) is going to pay dividends for him. Obviously he ain't gett big money but even if it was an overpay by $5-$10 million so what? The outfield doesn't look much better in 2024 with Verdugo likely gone and nothing in the system that really looks likely to take over from now until then other than Rafaella. And what if he doesn't hit? what If Mayer looks more like a 2025 SS and not a guy ready to hit the ground running to start 2024? or even mid 2024? Having an extra year of a guy like Kiké would be perfect for this roster in 2024. That is why I offer him the QO if he has another great season in 2023 because I don't mind him taking that money, and if the Sox are going to go over the cap in 2024 anywyas then I think it's fine even if it's a small overpay for just 1 year. I have a feeling they stay under in 2024 and blow through in 2025 with Devers, Bello, Casas, Whitlock, Mayer core
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Jan 19, 2023 14:02:24 GMT -5
Teams also have a recency bias, having another stellar campaign in 2023 (showing he can do it again) is going to pay dividends for him. Obviously he ain't gett big money but even if it was an overpay by $5-$10 million so what? The outfield doesn't look much better in 2024 with Verdugo likely gone and nothing in the system that really looks likely to take over from now until then other than Rafaella. And what if he doesn't hit? what If Mayer looks more like a 2025 SS and not a guy ready to hit the ground running to start 2024? or even mid 2024? Having an extra year of a guy like Kiké would be perfect for this roster in 2024. That is why I offer him the QO if he has another great season in 2023 because I don't mind him taking that money, and if the Sox are going to go over the cap in 2024 anywyas then I think it's fine even if it's a small overpay for just 1 year. I have a feeling they stay under in 2024 and blow through in 2025 with Devers, Bello, Casas, Whitlock, Mayer core Hopefully Yoshida, Rafaela and Yorke will be part of the core by then, which will limit Kikéâs utility, but utility is his strongest attribute and if he has another good year in 2023 he will be extended.
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ematz1423
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Post by ematz1423 on Jan 19, 2023 15:36:03 GMT -5
I have a feeling they stay under in 2024 and blow through in 2025 with Devers, Bello, Casas, Whitlock, Mayer core Hopefully Yoshida, Rafaela and Yorke will be part of the core by then, which will limit Kikéâs utility, but utility is his strongest attribute and if he has another good year in 2023 he will be extended. I certainly hope Yoshida is a part of the core for the next 5 seasons or his contract is going to be a boat anchor to their payroll.
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Post by crossedsabres8 on Jan 19, 2023 16:44:41 GMT -5
If they're going over the cap next year who cares about one year money? also, if what I said actually came to frution, how much would a guy in FA be worth who over 3 seasons puts up 4 WAR+ What does a 3-4 War player get in FA? And for one year, and given how bad the FA classes have come to be, I don' tthink that's a reach at all. This is all hypothetical on a good 2023 campaign of course. Well in 2019 he put up a 0.7 fWAR; in 2020 in a 60 game season he was 0.1 fWAR (so 0.3 if you extrapolate out), in 2021 he was 3.9 fWAR - a career year and in 2022 he was 0.5 fWAR. So if you're looking for a repeat of 2021, he will have to spend most of his time in CF where his defensive metrics play better than his SS work, and he'd have to play absolutely out of his mind again and defy the aging curve. So, if an evaluator thought they could get average or average to occasional plus D from him in CF and he could somehow get a .330+ OBP and 20 HRs, yeah, that would be worth $20-25M AAV a year. But again, his age and unevenness works against that (along with needing another career year, which is unlikely). His defense didn't fall off last year, just his bat. I think you're exaggerating what he'd need to do to get a big payday next year. The biggest thing he had going for him in 2021 was his centerfield defense. He had hit as well of not better in 2021 as he had in some previous years. That being said, it sounds like he may be playing a lot more infield. Which is fine, but he won't ring in the defensive value he did in 2021. But if he racked up 500 PAs of a wRC+ between 90 and 100 and played the same centerfield defense he has since playing there full time, he'd be worth over $20M
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2023 20:16:58 GMT -5
www.bostonglobe.com/2023/02/12/sports/Kiké-hernandez-red-sox/A lot of things in this piece so go read it - this was certainly interesting: “For the Sox, Hernández represents a potential key in the team’s hopes of defying modest expectations. The final three-plus months of 2021, he was one of the top all-around performers in the American League, ranking fifth in Fangraphs’ WAR after June 27, then delivering an incredible postseason performance (.408/.423/.837 with 5 homers). If he can become more consistent — a focus of both his swing work (he’s eliminated his leg kick and repositioned his hands for a more compact swing) and training — the Sox believe he could be a difference-maker. “His ceiling’s elite,” said Fatse. “At his best, he’s a very dynamic guy on both sides of the ball. … He can get on base, he knows the strike zone, and when he’s going really well, he’s impacting the ball to all fields. He can be a special player.””
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Feb 12, 2023 22:33:30 GMT -5
He also had a 20% IFFB rate for the entire season last year, which was up close to 30% in the first couple months. That's shockingly bad and I hope his new swing mechanics fix it.
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Post by wcsoxfan on May 23, 2023 18:30:49 GMT -5
Kiké has some concerning offensive numbers which may be signs of diminished skills (due to age): - ISO: .110; this is after a .116 ISO in 2022 which was his previous career low (career: .174) - Average Exit Velocity: 87.6; set his previous career low of 87.8 in 2022 (career: 89) - Hard Hit%: 32.8; this would be a career low, after 35% in 2022, the second lowest of his career (career: 37.8%) - Barrel%: 2.5: another career low after 2022 5.8%, which was the second lowest of his career (career: 6.3%) - Oppo%: 27.9; highest of career aside from truncated rookie season (career: 23.5%)
Along with diminished arm strength and speed (26.5 ft/sec sprint speed; lowest of career) and it seems that he has gotten old. He still works solid at-bats and can play multiple positions, and is therefore viable as a utility player, but I don't think he should be looked at as a starter, or super-utility guy, any longer.
(he's been getting under pitches at an extreme career high of 39.3%; not sure if that's age related or a correctable issue)
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Post by tookme55 on May 23, 2023 18:49:18 GMT -5
Bloom's not going to pay a utility player $20M, no way.
If he was in our future plans, we'd given him a multiple year deal. He's not in our 'core' group. He's a rental.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on May 23, 2023 19:53:30 GMT -5
Bloom's not going to pay a utility player $20M, no way. If he was in our future plans, we'd given him a multiple year deal. He's not in our 'core' group. He's a rental. I like Cora as a manager a lot but I think he likes Heenandez a lot and will play him regularly pretty much mo matter what. Perhaps he winds up at 2n when Story returns and I'm sure Cora can justify him playing daily based on defense. Even if Story returns as a 2B, then I still think Cora likes Hernandex's defense at SS...I'm not sold on us seeing Mondesi anytime soon. Maybe Chang winds up at SS and I'm wrong but I have trouble seeing Hernandez as a short half of a platoon playing multiple positions. I just get the feeling he'll play regularly whether he should or not because o do think Cora is high on him.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on May 24, 2023 3:01:06 GMT -5
Kiké has some concerning offensive numbers which may be signs of diminished skills (due to age): - ISO: .110; this is after a .116 ISO in 2022 which was his previous career low (career: .174) - Average Exit Velocity: 87.6; set his previous career low of 87.8 in 2022 (career: 89) - Hard Hit%: 32.8; this would be a career low, after 35% in 2022, the second lowest of his career (career: 37.8%) - Barrel%: 2.5: another career low after 2022 5.8%, which was the second lowest of his career (career: 6.3%) - Oppo%: 27.9; highest of career aside from truncated rookie season (career: 23.5%) Along with diminished arm strength and speed (26.5 ft/sec sprint speed; lowest of career) and it seems that he has gotten old. He still works solid at-bats and can play multiple positions, and is therefore viable as a utility player, but I don't think he should be looked at as a starter, or super-utility guy, any longer. (he's been getting under pitches at an extreme career high of 39.3%; not sure if that's age related or a correctable issue) Fatse said within the last weak that Kiké was still messed up from his injuries last year and they were working hard to fix him. I read that is acquiring one or more swing flaws from compensating for the injuries and having it stick in "muscle memory."
Keep in mind that he worked on his swing from the start of 2021 and didn't get it right until early June -- after which he was terrific.
They'll give him at least that long before they conclude he's toast.
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Post by manfred on May 24, 2023 9:31:27 GMT -5
Kiké has some concerning offensive numbers which may be signs of diminished skills (due to age): - ISO: .110; this is after a .116 ISO in 2022 which was his previous career low (career: .174) - Average Exit Velocity: 87.6; set his previous career low of 87.8 in 2022 (career: 89) - Hard Hit%: 32.8; this would be a career low, after 35% in 2022, the second lowest of his career (career: 37.8%) - Barrel%: 2.5: another career low after 2022 5.8%, which was the second lowest of his career (career: 6.3%) - Oppo%: 27.9; highest of career aside from truncated rookie season (career: 23.5%) Along with diminished arm strength and speed (26.5 ft/sec sprint speed; lowest of career) and it seems that he has gotten old. He still works solid at-bats and can play multiple positions, and is therefore viable as a utility player, but I don't think he should be looked at as a starter, or super-utility guy, any longer. (he's been getting under pitches at an extreme career high of 39.3%; not sure if that's age related or a correctable issue) Fatse said within the last weak that Kiké was still messed up from his injuries last year and they were working hard to fix him. I read that is acquiring one or more swing flaws from compensating for the injuries and having it stick in "muscle memory."
Keep in mind that he worked on his swing from the start of 2021 and didn't get it right until early June -- after which he was terrific.
They'll give him at least that long before they conclude he's toast. Honest question: why do you think pitching is like riding a bike but hitting can take months to make something stick in muscle memory? I mean, guys take BP every day. Pitchers don’t throw off the mound every day.
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