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4/6-4/9 Red Sox @ Tigers Series Thread
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Post by Guidas on Apr 6, 2023 10:33:43 GMT -5
In general Iâm in the camp that people way overstate the managers ability to influence outcomes. Will say though I thought Cora pressed all the right buttons in 2018, and I havenât been nearly as impressed since with his bullpen management, lineup decisions, etc. I do think that the manager deserves some blame/credit for poor fundamentals too, or an unhappy/happy clubhouse (which by all reports so far the team has great vibes). But I think weâre probably talking about marginal differences to wins over a season here. Is Cora even managing the lineups anymore? Last year Cora was fully intent on getting Kiké the leadoff spot, despite all his deficiencies against RHP. This year Kiké hasn't hit above 7th I don't think. He has burnt out some guys in the past in the bullpen. Matt Barnes seems like obvious candidate number one on that list. In Cora's defense, he's never had a great bullpen ever here. Even in the 2018 playoffs, he was using starting pitchers as set up men. Bloom might be to blame for not building enough good depth in a bullpen, to give Cora enough arms so he can rest more guys. Don't know how firing Cora would get to anywhere. The players like him and respect him. He's a Boston guy forever. He knows everything baseball. It's hard to teach grown men fundamentals. At this point, you either have the capacity for it or you don't. He'll probably be the fall guy, however. If they suck this year, you would be a crap team 3 out of the last 4 years. That doesn't really fly in Boston. Might? One of Bloom's/The Front Office's major talking points over the off-season was that that dramatically improved the bullpen. Rodriguez going down hurts, but he's not the solution to any pen woes right now. So far, it's been the rotation. It's very early and some hoped-for reinforcements are on the way relatively soon, but when you have high-risk players, the data say those outcomes are sub-optimal more often than not.
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Post by scottysmalls on Apr 6, 2023 10:53:07 GMT -5
Is Cora even managing the lineups anymore? Last year Cora was fully intent on getting Kiké the leadoff spot, despite all his deficiencies against RHP. This year Kiké hasn't hit above 7th I don't think. He has burnt out some guys in the past in the bullpen. Matt Barnes seems like obvious candidate number one on that list. In Cora's defense, he's never had a great bullpen ever here. Even in the 2018 playoffs, he was using starting pitchers as set up men. Bloom might be to blame for not building enough good depth in a bullpen, to give Cora enough arms so he can rest more guys. Don't know how firing Cora would get to anywhere. The players like him and respect him. He's a Boston guy forever. He knows everything baseball. It's hard to teach grown men fundamentals. At this point, you either have the capacity for it or you don't. He'll probably be the fall guy, however. If they suck this year, you would be a crap team 3 out of the last 4 years. That doesn't really fly in Boston. Might? One of Bloom's/The Front Office's major talking points over the off-season was that that dramatically improved the bullpen. Rodriguez going down hurts, but he's not the solution to any pen woes right now. So far, it's been the rotation. It's very early and some hoped-for reinforcements are on the way relatively soon, but when you have high-risk players, the data say those outcomes are sub-optimal more often than not. I don't want to detract from my main point which is that a manager's tactical acumen isn't super important, but I do think there are fair nitpicks about how Cora has used the bullpen arms he has available to him this year and last. Also if you're talking about pen woes and the pen not being dramatically improved, well obviously it's way too early to say, but the numbers don't support this point yet, the pen's been the 15th best in baseball by ERA and 8th by WAR which is a big improvement from last year. By WPA the pen has been totally neutral this year. This is more meaningful because the starters have been bad so the lower end relievers have pitched an outsized amount of the innings (Jansen has 1). So I don't think the pen appears to be an issue whatsoever, clearly last year that was a failure by the FO though I'll agree there. As far as the starters go yeah if they're all horrible all year that will have been a bad job by the front office but we're just so far from being able to say that's the case. Only one guy has pitched twice and he bounced back very well in his second start.
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Post by julyanmorley on Apr 6, 2023 11:05:40 GMT -5
In a realpolitik sense, probably important that the Sox are running out of players with long standing loyalty to Cora.
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Post by manfred on Apr 6, 2023 11:18:39 GMT -5
Keeping in mind Clint’s immortal words that deserves got nothing to do with it, if the Sox don’t make a real push this year, I bet Cora gets fired. Just the classic “new direction” firing.
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Post by rhswanzey on Apr 6, 2023 11:20:37 GMT -5
I’m curious as to starter usage and third time through the order penalty. I’m wondering if Cora has full autonomy over starting pitcher usage. Not specifically because of the quick hook on Kluber yesterday - the Eovaldi game against Toronto last spring (when Venable managed) was another example. During 2018 and especially during the disaster of an April 2019, Cora talked a lot about saving bullets for October so pitchers can empty the tank then. I just can’t recall the manager being so committed to five and done, regardless of pitch count or game flow, before his second stint with the club. Admittedly, this is just sort of anecdotal observation. I’m wondering if this has been a league wide shift towards avoiding third time through the order, or if this is an organizational choice, and something that was sort of insisted upon top down at the point that AC returned.
Along these lines… my problem isn’t with the organizational direction or this front office. At the point that you are mandated to trade a hall of fame player with a bottom five farm system, *and* you won’t simply declare a full rebuild and trade the rest of the core, what they’ve done is basically the only course of action you can take. That’s an ownership group decision. They own the post 2018 direction.
My problem is that I get the sense that this front office group is prone to doubling down on something when they feel they are sure about it. Five and done after 70 pitches and then using half the bullpen, or the reasoning for carrying Brasier/Ort all winter, are front of mind. Like, guys have been running xFIP / ERA gaps for twenty years, and sometimes there’s a better pitcher in there and it’s a luck/sequencing/defense problem, and sometimes it’s just a guy with great stuff, iffy command, and as a result, high H and HR rates that very much are not flukes. Not much different from how low minors players have been running high BABIPs forever. Sometimes that’s a star level contact player like Altuve, and sometimes it‘s the low minors. A lot of low minors guys running low BABIPs aren’t getting super unlucky. Maybe they just don’t make quality contact.
I don’t want Bloom or AC fired but I want more mitigation of potential groupthink. I think early season panic is overblown. It is what it is. What the ownership group chose post 2018 is just proof of why you roster build with a 6 WAR player instead of calling three 2 WAR players the same as the 6 WAR player. It’s a stupid direction, but that decision was already made, and Bloom is a good fit for that direction.
I care way more about keeping Eddie Romero in the org forever than either Bloom or AC
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Apr 6, 2023 11:50:05 GMT -5
Its 2-4, way too early to be talking about the manager's job, but yes, if the Sox go say 75-87, then yeah Cora probably does get fired.
I dont think a midseason shakeup does anything for them.
You dont hear about backbiting or clubhouse dysfunction. In those cases I think teams get a big initial boost when Theresa firing.
Thinking back to the Sox throughout their history, they did better when a deeply troubled Darrell Johnson was fired in favor of Don Zimmer in 1976. He was seen as a breath of fresh air at that point, which is hard to believe. Fisk and Johnson were openly arguing about Fisk's pitch calling.
There was a lot of stress around the time the Sox finally knifed the Mac, as it was called then in 1988 when the Sox let McNamara go. He wasn't talking to much of his young team. Joe Morgan took over and Morgan Magic instantly happened before reverting to thei doldrums.
In the case of letting Jimy Williams go in 2001 it backfired drastically as nobody wanted to play for Joe Kerrigan, who was already despised by his players. The players at that point liked Jimy Williams but didnt care for Dan Duquette's style.
I dont think dumping Cora midseason would make a tense team relax or anything like that. I dont think they're tense. They're simply middle of the pack in talent.
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Post by julyanmorley on Apr 6, 2023 12:11:20 GMT -5
Tigers currently sitting at 2.7 WAR on the $248 million Miggy extension that DD handed out. About a 30 win mistake all by itself.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Apr 6, 2023 12:18:07 GMT -5
Tigers currently sitting at 2.7 WAR on the $248 million Miggy extension that DD handed out. About a 30 win mistake all by itself. The Phillies contracts probably won’t look so good either pretty soon, but at least they can hang their 2022 WS runner up banner.
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Post by incandenza on Apr 6, 2023 12:18:08 GMT -5
Tigers currently sitting at 2.7 WAR on the $248 million Miggy extension that DD handed out. About a 30 win mistake all by itself. It's 1 WAR, Michael, what could it cost? $90 million?
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Post by julyanmorley on Apr 6, 2023 12:19:19 GMT -5
Devers on an 0-12
2 strikeouts and then EVs of 110, 108, 108, 106, 100, 99, 96, 95, 90, 57
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Apr 6, 2023 12:19:41 GMT -5
Sick start guys
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Apr 6, 2023 12:20:06 GMT -5
Sale hurt already? Control is awful, velocity down.
He made his second start so he has surpassed my expectations.
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Post by notstarboard on Apr 6, 2023 12:20:58 GMT -5
Gamecast says Sale threw two changeups at 89-90 and two fastballs at 90-91 and walked him on four pitches. I'm assuming those were all fastballs and his velo is just so atrocious right now the computer doesn't even know what's up?
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Post by taiwansox on Apr 6, 2023 12:21:35 GMT -5
I’ve never seen Sale this bad wow
edit: walking Baez on 4 pitches is next to impossible
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Apr 6, 2023 12:21:48 GMT -5
Chris Sale is just pathetic
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Post by notstarboard on Apr 6, 2023 12:22:27 GMT -5
"Your most embarrassing moment on a baseball field *so far*!"
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shagworthy
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Post by shagworthy on Apr 6, 2023 12:23:18 GMT -5
(Taps playing in the background)
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Apr 6, 2023 12:23:30 GMT -5
Chris Sale said his last start was the most embarrassed he's been. Being the competitor he is, he's seeing if he can 1 up it.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Apr 6, 2023 12:27:09 GMT -5
Looks like Sale figured it out, so concerning about the velocity.
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Post by julyanmorley on Apr 6, 2023 12:28:08 GMT -5
Ye of little faith
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Apr 6, 2023 12:28:25 GMT -5
Chris Sale is just pathetic That’s how you motivate folks
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Post by bosoxnation on Apr 6, 2023 12:28:26 GMT -5
Chris Sale is just pathetic how about now?
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Apr 6, 2023 12:28:41 GMT -5
now that’s better
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Post by taiwansox on Apr 6, 2023 12:29:17 GMT -5
K’d the side after that lol, this Tigers lineup is brutal. Is there a worse lineup in the league? (Maybe Royals? Even the A’s have some upside)
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Post by julyanmorley on Apr 6, 2023 12:29:40 GMT -5
I bet the Spencer Torkelson megathread on forum.tigersprospects.com is a lot of fun
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