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6/16-6/18 Red Sox vs. Yankees Series Thread
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Post by Oregon Norm on Jun 19, 2023 13:39:38 GMT -5
Meanwhile, they got mugged or swept by decidedly non-solid sub-.500 teams Pittsburgh, St. Louis, Colorado, Cincinnati and Cleveland so let's not get cocky about teams that aren't "solid." Cautiously optimistic, maybe? The record against those teams is ugly, and many of the losses were just sloppy and self-inflicted, but those games were decided by very thin margins. A couple bounces go our way, Alex Cora decides not to torpedo the team a few more times, etc. and we're doing just fine against these opponents.
Pittsburgh series: 1-run loss, 1-run loss, 3-run loss. St. Louis series: Led in the 9th twice and Jansen blew two saves. Last game was a blowout loss.
Colorado: Two extra inning losses and a solid win. Cincinnati: 1-run loss, 1-run loss, blowout win. Cleveland: 1-run win, 3-run loss, blowout loss (with 7.1 IP from Dermody and Kluber; Cora basically punted on this game to prep for NYY) So, we went 3-12 in these series, but were either leading, tied, or trailing by 1 run in the 9th inning of 11 of 15 games. We only trailed by more than 3 runs in the 9th in 2 of 15 games.
Good analysis. While some of those losses can be attributed to bad defense and the volatility of relief pitching, the hope is for some regression going forward.
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Post by Legion of Bloom on Jun 19, 2023 14:33:28 GMT -5
The record against those teams is ugly, and many of the losses were just sloppy and self-inflicted, but those games were decided by very thin margins. A couple bounces go our way, Alex Cora decides not to torpedo the team a few more times, etc. and we're doing just fine against these opponents.
Pittsburgh series: 1-run loss, 1-run loss, 3-run loss. St. Louis series: Led in the 9th twice and Jansen blew two saves. Last game was a blowout loss.
Colorado: Two extra inning losses and a solid win. Cincinnati: 1-run loss, 1-run loss, blowout win. Cleveland: 1-run win, 3-run loss, blowout loss (with 7.1 IP from Dermody and Kluber; Cora basically punted on this game to prep for NYY) So, we went 3-12 in these series, but were either leading, tied, or trailing by 1 run in the 9th inning of 11 of 15 games. We only trailed by more than 3 runs in the 9th in 2 of 15 games.
Good analysis. While some of those losses can be attributed to bad defense and the volatility of relief pitching, the hope is for some regression going forward. As in Cora stubbornly playing Kikรฉ at shortstop even though there are better defensive options on the roster.
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Post by DesignatedForAssignment on Jun 19, 2023 14:53:10 GMT -5
I'm not sure whether you're including Cashman in your question or just the three Red Sox guys. But if you're including Cashman, then he's the best of the bunch by far for me. He's the only one of the four whose team competes for a championship every year. Once you get there, the relative quality of your time means a ton less than it did during the 162-game season. The MFYs are almost always there. They've just gotten their hearts crushed year after year, often in incredibly unlikely ways, in the PS. ๐๐๐๐๐๐ Ignoring the fact that they were so good for the first half of Cashman's tenure because they spent substantially more money than every other team... He looks a lot worse nowadays without a clear monetary advantage versus other big-market clubs and especially so if you look ahead to their future. Mel Stottlemeyer & Gene Michael deserve much of the credit for the success under Torre
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,837
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Post by TearsIn04 on Jun 19, 2023 15:10:11 GMT -5
I'm not sure whether you're including Cashman in your question or just the three Red Sox guys. But if you're including Cashman, then he's the best of the bunch by far for me. He's the only one of the four whose team competes for a championship every year. Once you get there, the relative quality of your time means a ton less than it did during the 162-game season. The MFYs are almost always there. They've just gotten their hearts crushed year after year, often in incredibly unlikely ways, in the PS. ๐๐๐๐๐๐ Ignoring the fact that they were so good for the first half of Cashman's tenure because they spent substantially more money than every other team... He looks a lot worse nowadays without a clear monetary advantage versus other big-market clubs and especially so if you look ahead to their future. Well, he's been running Baseball Ops there since 1998, so the first half of his tenure takes us only to about 2010 or 2011. Even since then, they've been a contending, 90-win team just about every year. They may finish last this year if Judge is out for a long period of time, but that would be a first under him. The Red Sox, another big-spending team, have done it five times since 2012 if you count the year of Covidball. I also can't charge him a demerit for having great teams back when they had a bigger financial advantage. That advantage meant that he had a better chance of making the PS every year and that's exactly what he did. I'd be slapping the demerit on him if he didn't contend every year with his big advantage.
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Post by scottysmalls on Jun 19, 2023 15:25:23 GMT -5
Ignoring the fact that they were so good for the first half of Cashman's tenure because they spent substantially more money than every other team... He looks a lot worse nowadays without a clear monetary advantage versus other big-market clubs and especially so if you look ahead to their future. Well, he's been running Baseball Ops there since 1998, so the first half of his tenure takes us only to about 2010 or 2011. Even since then, they've been a contending, 90-win team just about every year. They may finish last this year if Judge is out for a long period of time, but that would be a first under him. The Red Sox, another big-spending team, have done it five times since 2012 if you count the year of Covidball. I also can't charge him a demerit for having great teams back when they had a bigger financial advantage. That advantage meant that he had a better chance of making the PS every year and that's exactly what he did. I'd be slapping the demerit on him if he didn't contend every year with his big advantage. The Yankees were the top spending team in the league every single season through 2013, generally by a huge margin each year, by a massive margin overall. From 2014-2017 they were second to the Dodgers every year, generally ahead of the third team by a big margin. Just calling both teams big spending doesn't totally paint the picture of how different the spend is. The Yankees have spent $400M more on player payroll than the Red Sox since 2000.
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Post by manfred on Jun 19, 2023 16:07:59 GMT -5
It seems like being the top spending team is often held out as being jo guarantee to successโฆ but then successful big spenders are dismissed as big spenders, as if it is a guarantee of success.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,837
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Post by TearsIn04 on Jun 19, 2023 16:16:49 GMT -5
Well, he's been running Baseball Ops there since 1998, so the first half of his tenure takes us only to about 2010 or 2011. Even since then, they've been a contending, 90-win team just about every year. They may finish last this year if Judge is out for a long period of time, but that would be a first under him. The Red Sox, another big-spending team, have done it five times since 2012 if you count the year of Covidball. I also can't charge him a demerit for having great teams back when they had a bigger financial advantage. That advantage meant that he had a better chance of making the PS every year and that's exactly what he did. I'd be slapping the demerit on him if he didn't contend every year with his big advantage. The Yankees were the top spending team in the league every single season through 2013, generally by a huge margin each year, by a massive margin overall. From 2014-2017 they were second to the Dodgers every year, generally ahead of the third team by a big margin. Just calling both teams big spending doesn't totally paint the picture of how different the spend is. The Yankees have spent $400M more on player payroll than the Red Sox since 2000. This is all true and the Cash-man has made his mistakes. The Stanton contract is going to be a ball and chain for another five years and the Judge contract will be worse. He's paying Josh Donaldson an AAV of $23M. He signed Jacoby Ellsbury. As far as spending $400M more than the Red Sox since 2000, that's an average of $17.4M a year. That's a material amount, but not huge amount, in today's BB, especially when you are talking about teams at the top of the pay scale. I think there are diminishing returns for each dollar spent above a certain amount. In other words, adding $17.4M to the payroll of a team that's spending $100M has a bigger impact than adding that same amount to a team that's spending $210M. That's just my impression. YMMV.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jun 19, 2023 16:28:53 GMT -5
I disagree. I think he's been pretty fantastic. We're seeing big money teams struggle to stay over .500. They're in the playoffs year after year and I believe he's the winningest GM during his stretch. The playoffs are a bit of a crap shoot and who knows if the Astros didn't bang on trash cans. He also maintains good farm systems that always seems to churn out players too. We've seen people blame Bloom for their current situation, others Dombrowski for his boom or bust methodology. Most would agree Cherington just got lucky in 2013 and was a terrible drafter who just hoarded prospects. Long way of saying even if he's not the best, there's a long way below him. The Astros banging on trash cans were the biggest reason why the 2017 Red Sox didn't advance either. No one cares about that because they didn't face the Astros a series later because of matchups at the time. I didn't mean to take that rant with you, but the Yankees weren't the only victims of the Astros cheating. The difference is the Red Sox eventually prevailed and succeeded despite their cheating. Cashman still crying and even their fan base (NYY Fansbase) doesn't accept their failed fake tears. I'm sick of the NYY stupid attempts to make themselves look better. They tried to bury a cheating letter, for their reputation. They didn't care about cheating themselves. They hung their success on one ballplayer. The Sox have been a very difficult franchise to stand by, because they don't stand by anyone long term. It's been working. They've actually changed their stance once in Rafael Devers. He was a great example to stand by. Everything NYY has been reactionary and dumb. Good riddance to the fake NYY success the past 2 decades. I do agree, but you can't ignore the Red Sox also cheated as well, but the main point was they did have a good season that was interrupted by a team caught in a scandal, but you're right, the Sox did too. I don't know if I'd necessarily agree that it has overly worked. They have 4 rings since 2004, but they're constantly flipping between first and last. If they miss the playoffs this year it would be 3 out of 4.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jun 19, 2023 16:31:07 GMT -5
I disagree. I think he's been pretty fantastic. We're seeing big money teams struggle to stay over .500. They're in the playoffs year after year and I believe he's the winningest GM during his stretch. The playoffs are a bit of a crap shoot and who knows if the Astros didn't bang on trash cans. He also maintains good farm systems that always seems to churn out players too. We've seen people blame Bloom for their current situation, others Dombrowski for his boom or bust methodology. Most would agree Cherington just got lucky in 2013 and was a terrible drafter who just hoarded prospects. Long way of saying even if he's not the best, there's a long way below him. Interesting question: who do you think is the best GM of the bunch you named? I would argue Dombrowski was the best of the 3 so far. He may have emptied the coffers, but either he's so good at talent evaluation that he knew they were all not very good or he just got incredibly lucky. Either way, his trades had a way of working out.
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Post by notstarboard on Jun 19, 2023 16:43:26 GMT -5
Ignoring the fact that they were so good for the first half of Cashman's tenure because they spent substantially more money than every other team... He looks a lot worse nowadays without a clear monetary advantage versus other big-market clubs and especially so if you look ahead to their future. Well, he's been running Baseball Ops there since 1998, so the first half of his tenure takes us only to about 2010 or 2011. Even since then, they've been a contending, 90-win team just about every year. They may finish last this year if Judge is out for a long period of time, but that would be a first under him. The Red Sox, another big-spending team, have done it five times since 2012 if you count the year of Covidball. I also can't charge him a demerit for having great teams back when they had a bigger financial advantage. That advantage meant that he had a better chance of making the PS every year and that's exactly what he did. I'd be slapping the demerit on him if he didn't contend every year with his big advantage. The Red Sox have basically gone with the boom and bust approach, so it's natural that there have been busts; 2012-2014 our mega core was mostly incubating (although there was an awesome WS win in between), then as they steadily grew into studs we took them on a ride that culminated in one of the best teams of all time. And after that we've spent the past few seasons picking up the pieces. If being a contending, 90-win team just about every year is what you're looking for, and I certainly am, the good news is we're well on our way there.
I agree one shouldn't knock Cashman for having money, since despite playing on easy mode he did build some great teams. I also admit I thought less of him than I should because I've paid closer attention to team building for the past five years or so, and in that time Cashman has not impressed. You're right that they have had a pretty impressive run of contending and Cashman does deserve credit for that.
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Post by manfred on Jun 19, 2023 17:56:59 GMT -5
I loathe the โboom or bustโ thing, because it is not that meaningful. I mean, especially in a competitive division. How long a โboomโ do you have to have not to count a โbustโ? Does bust and boom count? I mean, the Astros mailed in a few years, but now they are always good. Does that count? The Indians have finished 1st or 2nd every year since 2016. Is that model?
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