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6/27-6/29 Red Sox vs. Marlins Series Thread
TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,837
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Post by TearsIn04 on Jun 29, 2023 20:30:51 GMT -5
The ASG is likely to include more former Red Sox than Red Sox. I have to think Eovaldi will make it and Wacha should have a good shot. Dugo is the only worthy current Red Soxer IMO. ASG (for any sport) is really nothing more than a popularity contest. Its been that way for years. We all remember when royals fans stuffed the ballot for their players. Oh, absolutely. I believe Carlton Fisk got something like 12,000 votes in 1975 without playing a game the first half of the season. He busted his arm in ST. But Betts, JDM, Eo and Wacha are legitimate choices.
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Post by semperfisox on Jun 29, 2023 20:32:35 GMT -5
This team is so unlikable…puke
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Post by oldfaithful2019 on Jun 29, 2023 20:34:32 GMT -5
ASG (for any sport) is really nothing more than a popularity contest. Its been that way for years. We all remember when royals fans stuffed the ballot for their players. Oh, absolutely. I believe Carlton Fisk got something like 12,000 votes in 1975 without playing a game the first half of the season. He busted his arm in ST. But Betts, JDM, Eo and Wacha are legitimate choices. Those votes were in anticipation of the MVP like 2nd half that Pudge had that season !!!
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Post by manfred on Jun 29, 2023 20:35:13 GMT -5
It does take a special GM to turn Mookie, Xander, JD, and Eovaldi into… well Verdugo. A little unfair, though. Wong is a legitimate starting C and those don't grow on mulberry bushes. And Downs was a top 50 prospect at the time time of the trade. I don't blame Bloom for him being a dud. That happens with BB prospects and it's not fair to judge an exec on any one player he acquires. But if just about all your prospect acquisitions fizzle, that's worthy of criticism. That's where I am with Bloom on his trades for prospects. I think Wong is marginally a starter. He has a cannon and some power. He is not a great glove otherwise, and he is not a good hitter overall. Downs was not their best MI prospect, had already been traded once, and was a replacement for an arm that has actually turned out to be, well, actually a major leaguer. Ugh.
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Post by Guidas on Jun 29, 2023 21:00:58 GMT -5
We are not doing JD Martinez regret, come on. Zero people wanted him back after his 2-80 or whatever it was around the trade deadline. He has 1 WAR at the mid-way point, big whoop. I actually did, saying he’d be a good bounce-back guy and cheap because of it, but I am far too lazy to find the post.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,837
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Post by TearsIn04 on Jun 29, 2023 21:01:29 GMT -5
A little unfair, though. Wong is a legitimate starting C and those don't grow on mulberry bushes. And Downs was a top 50 prospect at the time time of the trade. I don't blame Bloom for him being a dud. That happens with BB prospects and it's not fair to judge an exec on any one player he acquires. But if just about all your prospect acquisitions fizzle, that's worthy of criticism. That's where I am with Bloom on his trades for prospects. I think Wong is marginally a starter. He has a cannon and some power. He is not a great glove otherwise, and he is not a good hitter overall. Downs was not their best MI prospect, had already been traded once, and was a replacement for an arm that has actually turned out to be, well, actually a major leaguer. Ugh. Who could have known at the time, though, that Downs would fizzle like he did? Like I said, I just can't hold one prospect acquisition against Bloom or any other exec because there's so much uncertainty to BB prospects. This is my favorite example of that: www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/goodwda01.shtml. Danny Goodwin was the R1-1 pick twice. And he put up -1.7 b-Ref WAR in his short career. Also, there were legitimate questions about Brusdar Gaterol's health. I wouldn't have wanted them to trade a generational talent for a 265-pound P with lower body questions. My beef with Bloom on his prospect acquisitions is that none of them have really worked out. Alex Binelas might be the most emblematic of them all IMO, given the trade that brought him here. We took on salary and killed the RF position for a year for a guy who's dropped out of the top 60. We've seen Valdez and Hamilton. Neither one should be allowed near a glove. It's not a good record.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,837
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Post by TearsIn04 on Jun 29, 2023 21:02:23 GMT -5
Oh, absolutely. I believe Carlton Fisk got something like 12,000 votes in 1975 without playing a game the first half of the season. He busted his arm in ST. But Betts, JDM, Eo and Wacha are legitimate choices. Those votes were in anticipation of the MVP like 2nd half that Pudge had that season !!! Yes! I think he had a HR in the WS too!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2023 21:08:57 GMT -5
I think you have to consider firing Cora just to shake things up That might have been easier to pull off when Will Venable was the bench coach - not Cora’s consigliere, Ramon Vazquez. There’s not necessarily a ready to go replacement. Varitek I guess? Now Bloom on the other hand… when the Boston Globe runs a late summer profile on Eddie Romero (“he helped negotiate a Devers extension!” “He’s the one who found Bello!”), my ears will perk up. A front office coup feels a lot more feasible to be pulled off if ownership is looking for a scalp.
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Post by Guidas on Jun 29, 2023 21:10:26 GMT -5
A little unfair, though. Wong is a legitimate starting C and those don't grow on mulberry bushes. And Downs was a top 50 prospect at the time time of the trade. I don't blame Bloom for him being a dud. That happens with BB prospects and it's not fair to judge an exec on any one player he acquires. But if just about all your prospect acquisitions fizzle, that's worthy of criticism. That's where I am with Bloom on his trades for prospects. I think Wong is marginally a starter. He has a cannon and some power. He is not a great glove otherwise, and he is not a good hitter overall. Downs was not their best MI prospect, had already been traded once, and was a replacement for an arm that has actually turned out to be, well, actually a major leaguer. Ugh. Wong is regressing to his mean. He’s pretty good defensively and the catcher’s main job is to receive the ball, call the game, give the staff a level of confidence and help control the run game. Offense appears to have become optional in the last 10 or so years. Even with is regressionhe’s probably about 10th-12th in MLB as far as WAR goes (though not enough PAs to be considered “qualified” vs. starting catchers in the league).
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 14,193
Member is Online
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Post by cdj on Jun 29, 2023 21:12:42 GMT -5
I think you have to consider firing Cora just to shake things up That might have been easier to pull off when Will Venable was the bench coach - not Cora’s consigliere, Ramon Vazquez. There’s not necessarily a ready to go replacement. Varitek I guess? Now Bloom on the other hand… when the Boston Globe runs a late summer profile on Eddie Romero (“he helped negotiate a Devers extension!” “He’s the one who found Bello!”), my ears will perk up. A front office coup feels a lot more feasible to be pulled off if ownership is looking for a scalp. Why not both! I love me some Eddie Romero
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Post by notstarboard on Jun 29, 2023 21:13:29 GMT -5
A little unfair, though. Wong is a legitimate starting C and those don't grow on mulberry bushes. And Downs was a top 50 prospect at the time time of the trade. I don't blame Bloom for him being a dud. That happens with BB prospects and it's not fair to judge an exec on any one player he acquires. But if just about all your prospect acquisitions fizzle, that's worthy of criticism. That's where I am with Bloom on his trades for prospects. I think Wong is marginally a starter. He has a cannon and some power. He is not a great glove otherwise, and he is not a good hitter overall. Downs was not their best MI prospect, had already been traded once, and was a replacement for an arm that has actually turned out to be, well, actually a major leaguer. Ugh. Wong with robo umps is going to be awesome. The main weakness in his game is framing. His bat isn't great, but it doesn't have to be at C. Meanwhile he calls a decent game and locks down the running game.
Edit: And if I recall correctly it was just going to be Verdugo + Graterol; I think Graterol was replaced by Downs and Wong. I would much rather have Wong than Graterol.
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Post by manfred on Jun 29, 2023 21:25:08 GMT -5
I think Wong is marginally a starter. He has a cannon and some power. He is not a great glove otherwise, and he is not a good hitter overall. Downs was not their best MI prospect, had already been traded once, and was a replacement for an arm that has actually turned out to be, well, actually a major leaguer. Ugh. Who could have known at the time, though, that Downs would fizzle like he did? Like I said, I just can't hold one prospect acquisition against Bloom or any other exec because there's so much uncertainty to BB prospects. This is my favorite example of that: www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/goodwda01.shtml. Danny Goodwin was the R1-1 pick twice. And he put up -1.7 b-Ref WAR in his short career. Also, there were legitimate questions about Brusdar Gaterol's health. I wouldn't have wanted them to trade a generational talent for a 265-pound P with lower body questions. My beef with Bloom on his prospect acquisitions is that none of them have really worked out. Alex Binelas might be the most emblematic of them all IMO, given the trade that brought him here. We took on salary and killed the RF position for a year for a guy who's dropped out of the top 60. We've seen Valdez and Hamilton. Neither one should be allowed near a glove. It's not a good record. I guess the Reds had suspicions.
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Post by notstarboard on Jun 29, 2023 21:30:24 GMT -5
I think Wong is marginally a starter. He has a cannon and some power. He is not a great glove otherwise, and he is not a good hitter overall. Downs was not their best MI prospect, had already been traded once, and was a replacement for an arm that has actually turned out to be, well, actually a major leaguer. Ugh. Who could have known at the time, though, that Downs would fizzle like he did? Like I said, I just can't hold one prospect acquisition against Bloom or any other exec because there's so much uncertainty to BB prospects. This is my favorite example of that: www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/goodwda01.shtml. Danny Goodwin was the R1-1 pick twice. And he put up -1.7 b-Ref WAR in his short career. Also, there were legitimate questions about Brusdar Gaterol's health. I wouldn't have wanted them to trade a generational talent for a 265-pound P with lower body questions. My beef with Bloom on his prospect acquisitions is that none of them have really worked out. Alex Binelas might be the most emblematic of them all IMO, given the trade that brought him here. We took on salary and killed the RF position for a year for a guy who's dropped out of the top 60. We've seen Valdez and Hamilton. Neither one should be allowed near a glove. It's not a good record. Which studs was he giving up for these guys, though? Two months of rentals like Pillar and CVaz? Hunter Renfroe and Andrew Benintendi in Arb 2? The only extremely valuable player that was traded was Betts on a 1/27 and that brought back 5 years of a solid RF, 6 years of what looks like an average-ish starting catcher, and 3/48 in savings on the Price contract. I'd agree it's not a good record, but it's not awful either, and there is a lot that remains to be seen from these trades. Can Winck build on this year? Can Abreu keep up his momentum? Will Valdez and Hamilton hit enough to stick in a bench role?
You seem a little too hard on Hamilton too. We've seen him at SS for a few games. SP.com thinks he could be an average defensive 2B. SS was never likely to be a long term home for him; he's more likely to be a utility pinch runner type.
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Post by soxfansince67 on Jun 29, 2023 21:40:46 GMT -5
So - here we sit at 40-42, 1-7 in our last 8.
Last year we were at 45-37, 3-6 in the prior 9 - with 3-8 in the next 11 leading to the AS break - so we started the free fall.
What will this year's last 9 leading to the AS break bring? Could be another free fall in progress.
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Post by manfred on Jun 29, 2023 21:46:30 GMT -5
Who could have known at the time, though, that Downs would fizzle like he did? Like I said, I just can't hold one prospect acquisition against Bloom or any other exec because there's so much uncertainty to BB prospects. This is my favorite example of that: www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/goodwda01.shtml. Danny Goodwin was the R1-1 pick twice. And he put up -1.7 b-Ref WAR in his short career. Also, there were legitimate questions about Brusdar Gaterol's health. I wouldn't have wanted them to trade a generational talent for a 265-pound P with lower body questions. My beef with Bloom on his prospect acquisitions is that none of them have really worked out. Alex Binelas might be the most emblematic of them all IMO, given the trade that brought him here. We took on salary and killed the RF position for a year for a guy who's dropped out of the top 60. We've seen Valdez and Hamilton. Neither one should be allowed near a glove. It's not a good record. Which studs was he giving up for these guys, though? Two months of rentals like Pillar and CVaz? Hunter Renfroe and Andrew Benintendi in Arb 2? The only extremely valuable player that was traded was Betts on a 1/27 and that brought back 5 years of a solid RF, 6 years of what looks like an average-ish starting catcher, and 3/48 in savings on the Price contract. I'd agree it's not a good record, but it's not awful either, and there is a lot that remains to be seen from these trades. Can Winck build on this year? Can Abreu keep up his momentum? Will Valdez and Hamilton hit enough to stick in a bench role?
You seem a little too hard on Hamilton too. We've seen him at SS for a few games. SP.com thinks he could be an average defensive 2B. SS was never likely to be a long term home for him; he's more likely to be a utility pinch runner type.
I don’t want to relitigate but the small deals were small, yes, but Renfroe, for example, was so poor… no replacement, and he’s decent again this year. It was all wheel spinning. But the bigger problem is the amount of talent that has yielded nothing. It is not just the trades they’ve made, but it is also the ones they didn’t make. It is just resource management in general. Last thing… you name some guys who are “depth”… but that is the specialty these last years… get guys who slot ~15, say “our system is deeper,” and watch them slide. Downs was #2; Seabold #7; Binelas was #17; Ronaldo Hernandez was top-20 etc. and now… Nada. I’d like to see them perhaps *trade* prospects before they flame out.
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Post by yuchangclan on Jun 29, 2023 22:30:45 GMT -5
Turner's been more valuable, that swap ain't the problem it isn't the problem, i agree, but JD has been the better hitter this year. take a look at the numbers. I’m pretty sure JD wouldn’t be doing THIS in Boston this year. He had run his course and burned out. We’ve seen it many times. He’s a new man in Lala land, though. It’s like he’s 10 years younger.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jun 29, 2023 22:37:56 GMT -5
Its pretty obvious Cora is not the problem.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 29, 2023 22:39:46 GMT -5
it isn't the problem, i agree, but JD has been the better hitter this year. take a look at the numbers. I’m pretty sure JD wouldn’t be doing THIS in Boston this year. He had run his course and burned out. We’ve seen it many times. He’s a new man in Lala land, though. It’s like he’s 10 years younger. I never really bought that JD Martinez was washed up. He was terrible in the middle of the season but finished strong in the last month or so of the season. I remember him talking about rediscovering his mechanics or something like that. When JD Martinez says something to that affect I pay attention as the guy is a very scientific studious hitter. I felt he would still be good and I was hoping the Sox would bring him back, but I was also good with signing Turner as well. Now JD is back with his old hitting guru so it's nice to see him having something of a renaissance. He's not the guy he was from 2017 - 2019 but he's pretty damn good. Ge mentioned his mechanics changing after his injury in Game 1 of the 2018 World Series when he rolled his ankle when he slipped on the wet ground running the bases after a shot he hit off the wall. I think JD winds up a hitting coach in the future.
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Post by yuchangclan on Jun 29, 2023 22:42:45 GMT -5
Verdugo this year and Wong seem to make the Mookie trade rather balanced. I'm still furious at losing Xander and Eovaldi for 4th rounders. Balanced? Hardly. Verdugo is a nice player. A borderline all-star this year, even. But Mookie is the best talent the organization has produced in 50 years. He’s the guy selling tickets on the road when the Sox come to town. You don’t replace THAT with a nice corner OF and a catcher with a strong arm. You don’t really replace that at all. That’s your franchise guy.
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Post by notstarboard on Jun 29, 2023 22:47:12 GMT -5
Which studs was he giving up for these guys, though? Two months of rentals like Pillar and CVaz? Hunter Renfroe and Andrew Benintendi in Arb 2? The only extremely valuable player that was traded was Betts on a 1/27 and that brought back 5 years of a solid RF, 6 years of what looks like an average-ish starting catcher, and 3/48 in savings on the Price contract. I'd agree it's not a good record, but it's not awful either, and there is a lot that remains to be seen from these trades. Can Winck build on this year? Can Abreu keep up his momentum? Will Valdez and Hamilton hit enough to stick in a bench role?
You seem a little too hard on Hamilton too. We've seen him at SS for a few games. SP.com thinks he could be an average defensive 2B. SS was never likely to be a long term home for him; he's more likely to be a utility pinch runner type.
I don’t want to relitigate but the small deals were small, yes, but Renfroe, for example, was so poor… no replacement, and he’s decent again this year. It was all wheel spinning. But the bigger problem is the amount of talent that has yielded nothing. It is not just the trades they’ve made, but it is also the ones they didn’t make. It is just resource management in general. Last thing… you name some guys who are “depth”… but that is the specialty these last years… get guys who slot ~15, say “our system is deeper,” and watch them slide. Downs was #2; Seabold #7; Binelas was #17; Ronaldo Hernandez was top-20 etc. and now… Nada. I’d like to see them perhaps *trade* prospects before they flame out. What about the prospects who rise? There are plenty who have gone in that direction too. Renfroe has been mediocre at best this year. He's making $12 million and has posted 1.1 fWAR with a 105 wRC+ and -4 DRS so far. Savant stats are ugly too: 29th percentile xwOBA (career wOBA - xwOBA is .008; not much reason to discount xwOBA) and 14th percentile OAA. He would be the fifth best outfielder on our team this year.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jun 29, 2023 22:48:25 GMT -5
Verdugo this year and Wong seem to make the Mookie trade rather balanced. I'm still furious at losing Xander and Eovaldi for 4th rounders. Balanced? Hardly. Verdugo is a nice player. A borderline all-star this year, even. But Mookie is the best talent the organization has produced in 50 years. He’s the guy selling tickets on the road when the Sox come to town. You don’t replace THAT with a nice corner OF and a catcher with a strong arm. You don’t really replace that at all. That’s your franchise guy. But you have to take that as a caveat that he wasn't going to be kept around after the season. The money saved from Price also led to the acquisition of Story. The Dodgers were able to work out a deal before he hit free agency, but they didn't know going in they'd be able to negotiate with him. I wonder how much Covid impacted his decision to sign early. If they traded 2-3 years of Mookie, the deal would have sucked. This year at least we have an all-star and a starting catcher. I always thought Verdugo was what Benny should have been, but last year he looked like bad Benny.
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Post by notstarboard on Jun 29, 2023 22:48:25 GMT -5
Its pretty obvious Cora is not the problem. 🤨
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Post by notstarboard on Jun 29, 2023 22:57:01 GMT -5
it isn't the problem, i agree, but JD has been the better hitter this year. take a look at the numbers. I’m pretty sure JD wouldn’t be doing THIS in Boston this year. He had run his course and burned out. We’ve seen it many times. He’s a new man in Lala land, though. It’s like he’s 10 years younger. He has not even been particularly good this year. Yes, 18 HRs, but a .302 OBP and a 31% K rate. Worth his paycheck, certainly, but Turner has been a more valuable player. JD also does tend to start fast; he was the man in Boston last year too, but after the first few months played pretty poorly the rest of the way. Let's see how he ends up.
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Post by manfred on Jun 29, 2023 23:10:08 GMT -5
I don’t want to relitigate but the small deals were small, yes, but Renfroe, for example, was so poor… no replacement, and he’s decent again this year. It was all wheel spinning. But the bigger problem is the amount of talent that has yielded nothing. It is not just the trades they’ve made, but it is also the ones they didn’t make. It is just resource management in general. Last thing… you name some guys who are “depth”… but that is the specialty these last years… get guys who slot ~15, say “our system is deeper,” and watch them slide. Downs was #2; Seabold #7; Binelas was #17; Ronaldo Hernandez was top-20 etc. and now… Nada. I’d like to see them perhaps *trade* prospects before they flame out. What about the prospects who rise? There are plenty who have gone in that direction too. Renfroe has been mediocre at best this year. He's making $12 million and has posted 1.1 fWAR with a 105 wRC+ and -4 DRS so far. Savant stats are ugly too: 29th percentile xwOBA (career wOBA - xwOBA is .008; not much reason to discount xwOBA) and 14th percentile OAA. He would be the fifth best outfielder on our team this year. I mean… Yoshida is 1 fWAR for more money. The wheels on the bus go round and round…
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Post by dirtywaterinla on Jun 29, 2023 23:43:50 GMT -5
What about the prospects who rise? There are plenty who have gone in that direction too. Renfroe has been mediocre at best this year. He's making $12 million and has posted 1.1 fWAR with a 105 wRC+ and -4 DRS so far. Savant stats are ugly too: 29th percentile xwOBA (career wOBA - xwOBA is .008; not much reason to discount xwOBA) and 14th percentile OAA. He would be the fifth best outfielder on our team this year. I mean… Yoshida is 1 fWAR for more money. The wheels on the bus go round and round… I really hate how folks glaze over the fact that Renfroe is an awful fielder and is clearly a clubhouse cancer. Why else would he be playing on his 5th team in as many years if he was so valuable?
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