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Best Starting Pitching Metrics and Measures of MLB success
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Post by Guidas on Sept 2, 2023 18:19:41 GMT -5
I've read on various sites quite and been told quite a bit here about pitching metrics and measures of success, but they are all over the place. I genuinely want to know if pitchers are really 1/2s and if they are progressing. But the literature and comments are all over the place. For example, I've read/heard that:
- ERA is an antiquated stat that misses a lot - bWAR "overvalues stuff" - xFIP is "crap" - fWAR is "undervalues stuff"
and much, much more etc.
And the more I read, the more ignorant I feel about this.
I've always judged a pitcher live 1) whether he hits the mit, 2) if he's getting swinging strikes and 3) if he's getting rocked, but other than the latter, none of these fit neatly into pitching stats.
I really have no opinion about this other than K/BB ratios where K > BB is good K/9 > 7 is good and more > 9 is very good and BB/9 <3 is good and < 2 is very good.
Other than that, I don't know but want to figure out which guys - especially Sox guys and guys the Sox may be targeting are actually passing the eye test or are better or worse than that. So, perhaps the more knowledgeable people here can help a brother out and give me the definitive metrics to tell me what levels of excellence (or lack there of) guys are performing at and who is getting better or worse year-to-year.
Thanks!
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Post by Guidas on Sept 3, 2023 12:05:45 GMT -5
So, I'm guessing by all the views but none of the comments that there's nothing definitive, or no definitive combo. Is this correct?
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Post by oldfaithful2019 on Sept 3, 2023 12:20:52 GMT -5
So, I'm guessing by all the views but none of the comments that there's nothing definitive, or no definitive combo. Is this correct? I look to WHIP. The down side of this measure is it does not factor in what the hit was, a single and a homer counts the same. Maybe if slugging % against were added to WHIP for a similar measure to OPS.That measure may exist somewhere but I have yet to find it.
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Post by Guidas on Sept 3, 2023 14:10:19 GMT -5
So, I'm guessing by all the views but none of the comments that there's nothing definitive, or no definitive combo. Is this correct? Personally, I know the conversation my response will lead to and I don't want to bother. Send me a message 1:1 then. I’m genuinely looking for metrics that are, if not completely definitive, legitimate measures of excellence, growth and regression.
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Post by dcb26 on Sept 3, 2023 17:38:22 GMT -5
Good thread topic. I personally don't like the idea of looking for a magic bullet solution among stats; they each tell something different, and I'm personally not comfortable enough with any all-in-one solution (WAR being the obvious example) to use them exclusively. To me there is still some "art" left among the science of advanced stats, and that's figuring out which ones to apply and when. FIP vs. xFIP is an example (and yes, some people will completely ignore both, which is fine too) - From the MLB.com advanced stats glossary So, at a high level, xFIP acknowledges that there is such a thing as a groundball or flyball pitcher, but not a pitcher who is any more "homerun prone" than their flyball rate would suggest. On *average* xFIP should be more accurate, or at least that was the case a few years ago, but there are (I believe) absolutely some pitchers who have a skill at limiting homeruns - a version of the whole "ability to limit hard contact" debate. To me, that means that xFIP may be worth looking at, but not in a vacuum. I know this isn't what you want to hear, but you're probably best off doing some research and finding out what mix of stats you think are worth looking at, and then looking at all of those if you're really trying to evaluate a pitcher's performance. For a high level understanding of some of the more advanced stats, I actually think the MLB.com glossary does a pretty good job of explaining them: www.mlb.com/glossary/advanced-stats - they're each a very quick read. As far as stats you didn't mention, I think wOBA and xwOBA allowed are very much worth looking at for pitchers - they aren't always going to be perfect, but try to determine the impact of every plate appearance on scoring runs. wOBA will try to tell you what happened, xwOBA will try to tell you what should have happened. The incorporation of statcast data into the expected outcome is something I find particularly interesting, although also not perfect. One other thing that I think gets lost sometimes in this conversation: with enough of a sample size and/or a long enough trend, almost any stat starts to be meaningful. ERA may not be anywhere near as predictive as some other numbers, but if you have a pitcher who's put up an ERA of 3 in a full season each year for the last 5 years, then all things being equal, its a pretty good bet he'll put up an ERA around 3 next year, too. The "all things being equal" piece is critical though, and again, you likely need some of these more advanced stats to spot if things really are still "equal" or not. Because of this, evaluating prospects through statistics is - as far as I'm concerned - really challenging at best, as so many things change so frequently as players progress through the minors (which is also why this site is so much fun.) In those cases, the smaller component stats, K%, BB%, things like that, may be at least a little bit safer, but still need to be considered with a ton of context.
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Post by James Dunne on Sept 3, 2023 18:05:13 GMT -5
This is the extremely short version, but FIP is a solid measure in the medium-term (maybe 75 to 400 innings, I dunno) and RA or ERA is better for over multiple seasons. Like, if someone is outperforming or underperforming their FIP for a season, I assume it will regress; if someone is doing it over the years then it's a skill/flaw. bWAR is a useful shorthand for pitchers - a clean measurement of runs allowed against expected runs allowed, adjusted for park effects, opponent quality, etc, and then reduced from runs allowed above replacement to wins. It's not perfect but it's helpful. fWAR is generally a silly way to measure value and I don't use it - it's based on FIP, but it's worse and more misleading than FIP itself. The relationship from FIP to wins above replacement isn't necessarily there, it's skipping a step. Strikeout/walk ratio is always trusty: it isn't necessarily a predictor of success, but a poor one is almost always a bad sign.
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Post by chaimtime on Sept 3, 2023 19:05:59 GMT -5
Speier did an AMA a couple weeks ago and said he thought Baseball Prospectus had the best group of stats. I think he said theirs were the closest to how he understands front offices evaluate players.
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Post by jmei on Sept 3, 2023 20:50:32 GMT -5
When I’m being lazy, I roughly average ERA/FIP/xFIP/xERA.
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Post by orion09 on Sept 3, 2023 22:43:18 GMT -5
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