SoxProspects News
|
|
|
|
Legal
Forum Ground Rules
The views expressed by the members of this Forum do not necessarily reflect the views of SoxProspects, LLC.
© 2003-2024 SoxProspects, LLC
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home | Search | My Profile | Messages | Members | Help |
Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
The search for the next Chief Baseball Officer
|
Post by ibkee on Oct 22, 2023 11:25:56 GMT -5
It's possible to be both aware, and appreciative, of the success FSG has brought here while recognising the flaws in long term strategy. The fact that no high profile GM wants to even interview for the job in Boston - once among the cream of the crop - is a direct result of Henry's actions. Hiring and firing for the position, then sticking the knife in once it's done, is bound to create a work atmosphere so toxic that few want a part of it. Throw in the overall lack of control and the organisation's bizarre attachment to the immovable Alex Cora and it's easy to see why ownership is taking a lot of heat from the fans. Bloom was, as I recall, the only high profile external candidate to interview after Henry unceremoniously dumped one of the highest regarded GMs in baseball. Then he makes a scapegoat of Bloom without any plan for succession or direction. Lessons aren't being learned. We appear rudderless, aimless and are an embarrassment. This all coinciding with a feeling like Fenway no longer matters much to Fenway Sports Group will inevitably lead to discussions like this. It’s not a bizarre attachment to Cora. He’s arguably the best manager we’ve ever had. What is bizarre about that? That'd be Francona, and by a large margin too. And it's bizarre because Henry's MO has been hire and fire happy from the beginning, Terry included. I'd also argue that Cora hasn't shown much since 2018 when he had literally the best lineup in franchise history. That's an aside though. I think it's obvious the fact Alex seems so secure in the role - to the point that, it appears a new GM would be unable to pick another manager of their choice - is he's being groomed for the GM role himself. That's great and all, but feels like a gamble that may never pay off but will linger around as a distraction in the interim.
|
|
|
Post by scottysmalls on Oct 22, 2023 11:59:55 GMT -5
Cora seemed to have the magic touch in 2018. But has he been anything other than a perfectly generic manager since then? Has he been especially innovative, or shown an ability to get the most out of his players? Yeah this, I really don’t get why the org is seemingly orbiting around him.
|
|
TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,840
|
Post by TearsIn04 on Oct 22, 2023 12:01:58 GMT -5
On what planet is he better than Francona was? The planet "Make Believe", lol. I like Cora as a manager but Francona was the best. I do think you can make a good argument for Cora being among the best managers the Sox ever had, though. Dick Williams was an excellent manager. I liked Walpole Joe Morgan. It might be blasphemous but I did like John Farrell. I thought Ralph Houk was a damn good manager, too. Don Zimmer and Joe McCarthy had the highest win percentages I believe but their managing directly cost the team two post season appearances each. Joe Cronin was the manager the longest but not known for being particularly good, but I certainly couldnt judge that. I'm lukewarm on Jimy Williams and probably Darrell Johnson and Eddie Kasko, although others would probably have much better informed opinions on the latter two. Everybody else was meh or awful with Pinky Higgins being the lowest of the low. Francona's is the best and Zimmer and Pinky are the worst. I'd put Dick Williams second best but with a big asterisk. His style couldn't sustain long-term success. Fining Yaz for not running hard on a night when Yaz was injured and should not have been in the lineup wasn't a great move for Williams' job security! But no doubt, he was the perfect guy to bring in during the '66'-'67 off-season. Farrell and Ben Cherington don't get enough appreciation. 2013 was magical. McCarthy's boozing and his choice of SP in the 1948 playoff game make him third worst. Darrell Johnson was treated unfairly, I think. He won in '75 and got canned for a few disappointing months at the start of '76, a year when BB in general and the Red Sox in particular was trying to adjust to the whole new world of free agency. The Lynn-Fisk-Burleson situation ate that team alive. If they had kept Johnson, they would have been in the PS in both '77 and '78. I thought Kevin Kennedy was good and that he also got a screwing. I'm Ok with Kasko and Jimy with one "m."
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 22, 2023 12:07:01 GMT -5
The planet "Make Believe", lol. I like Cora as a manager but Francona was the best. I do think you can make a good argument for Cora being among the best managers the Sox ever had, though. Dick Williams was an excellent manager. I liked Walpole Joe Morgan. It might be blasphemous but I did like John Farrell. I thought Ralph Houk was a damn good manager, too. Don Zimmer and Joe McCarthy had the highest win percentages I believe but their managing directly cost the team two post season appearances each. Joe Cronin was the manager the longest but not known for being particularly good, but I certainly couldnt judge that. I'm lukewarm on Jimy Williams and probably Darrell Johnson and Eddie Kasko, although others would probably have much better informed opinions on the latter two. Everybody else was meh or awful with Pinky Higgins being the lowest of the low. Francona's is the best and Zimmer and Pinky are the worst. I'd put Dick Williams second best but with a big asterisk. His style couldn't sustain long-term success. Fining Yaz for not running hard on a night when Yaz was injured and should not have been in the lineup wasn't a great move for Williams' job security! But no doubt, he was the perfect guy to bring in during the '66'-'67 off-season. Farrell and Ben Cherington don't get enough appreciation. 2013 was magical. McCarthy's boozing and his choice of SP in the 1948 playoff game make him third worst. Darrell Johnson was treated unfairly, I think. He won in '75 and got canned for a few disappointing months at the start of '76, a year when BB in general and the Red Sox in particular was trying to adjust to the whole new world of free agency. The Lynn-Fisk-Burleson situation ate that team alive. If they had kept Johnson, they would have been in the PS in both '77 and '78. I thought Kevin Kennedy was good and that he also got a screwing. I'm Ok with Kasko and Jimy with one "m." Johnson was having issues with the bottle as well in 76 and he and Pudge were battling over the signs Fisk was putting down for the pitchers. Of course Lee thought he should have gotten the Game 6 start and Tiant should have started Game 7, but I dont disagree with Johnson. You have to won Game 6 before you play Game 7. I'm sure having Burton pitch the 9th inning in Game 7 was highly debatable, even prior to the move., not just afterward.
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 22, 2023 12:15:59 GMT -5
It’s not a bizarre attachment to Cora. He’s arguably the best manager we’ve ever had. What is bizarre about that? That'd be Francona, and by a large margin too. And it's bizarre because Henry's MO has been hire and fire happy from the beginning, Terry included. I'd also argue that Cora hasn't shown much since 2018 when he had literally the best lineup in franchise history. That's an aside though. I think it's obvious the fact Alex seems so secure in the role - to the point that, it appears a new GM would be unable to pick another manager of their choice - is he's being groomed for the GM role himself. That's great and all, but feels like a gamble that may never pay off but will linger around as a distraction in the interim. Cora didnt have the best lineup. He had the best one two punch in Betts and JDM. Bogaerts was really good but the rest of the lineup was ordinary. Devers wasnt Devers yet. They got zero offense out of catcher. Benintendi was decent. Bradley was meh. Holt was ok. Nunez was Nunez. I think the overriding point in trying o steer this conversation back to where it should go is this. Cora is definitely one of the best managers they've had, but how much power should that be worth in this structure? And at what point does 2018 and to a lesser extent 2021 remain his reference point. In other words Belichick is the best coach ever, yet how does he look now? Should he wield the power he does? Similar type question for Cora.
|
|
|
Post by FenwayFanatic on Oct 22, 2023 12:32:55 GMT -5
It’s not a bizarre attachment to Cora. He’s arguably the best manager we’ve ever had. What is bizarre about that? On what planet is he better than Francona was? The one where 2011 happened? He was way too much of a players manager. It worked well at times but I much prefer Cora’s approach and I’m sure others do as well. I know it was over a decade ago but some of you guys really seem to not remember Francona’s deficiencies.
|
|
|
Post by incandenza on Oct 22, 2023 12:33:01 GMT -5
That'd be Francona, and by a large margin too. And it's bizarre because Henry's MO has been hire and fire happy from the beginning, Terry included. I'd also argue that Cora hasn't shown much since 2018 when he had literally the best lineup in franchise history. That's an aside though. I think it's obvious the fact Alex seems so secure in the role - to the point that, it appears a new GM would be unable to pick another manager of their choice - is he's being groomed for the GM role himself. That's great and all, but feels like a gamble that may never pay off but will linger around as a distraction in the interim. Cora didnt have the best lineup. He had the best one two punch in Betts and JDM. Bogaerts was really good but the rest of the lineup was ordinary. Devers wasnt Devers yet. They got zero offense out of catcher. Benintendi was decent. Bradley was meh. Holt was ok. Nunez was Nunez. I think the overriding point in trying o steer this conversation back to where it should go is this. Cora is definitely one of the best managers they've had, but how much power should that be worth in this structure? And at what point does 2018 and to a lesser extent 2021 remain his reference point. In other words Belichick is the best coach ever, yet how does he look now? Should he wield the power he does? Similar type question for Cora. Yeah, it was quite a top-heavy lineup; they had a 111 wRC+, which is good, but it was higher in 2016 (113), 2013 (114), 2011 (117), 2005 (112), 2004 (114), and 2003 (120). And that's just this century.
Side note: the team wRC+ was 91 in 2017, the worst of the century, which is weird in that it came between 2016 and 2018, and in that they somehow won the division with that.
|
|
|
Post by ibkee on Oct 22, 2023 12:50:14 GMT -5
That'd be Francona, and by a large margin too. And it's bizarre because Henry's MO has been hire and fire happy from the beginning, Terry included. I'd also argue that Cora hasn't shown much since 2018 when he had literally the best lineup in franchise history. That's an aside though. I think it's obvious the fact Alex seems so secure in the role - to the point that, it appears a new GM would be unable to pick another manager of their choice - is he's being groomed for the GM role himself. That's great and all, but feels like a gamble that may never pay off but will linger around as a distraction in the interim. Cora didnt have the best lineup. He had the best one two punch in Betts and JDM. Bogaerts was really good but the rest of the lineup was ordinary. Devers wasnt Devers yet. They got zero offense out of catcher. Benintendi was decent. Bradley was meh. Holt was ok. Nunez was Nunez. I think the overriding point in trying o steer this conversation back to where it should go is this. Cora is definitely one of the best managers they've had, but how much power should that be worth in this structure? And at what point does 2018 and to a lesser extent 2021 remain his reference point. In other words Belichick is the best coach ever, yet how does he look now? Should he wield the power he does? Similar type question for Cora. I mean, yeah, if you want to be reductionist. The fact that JDM was a potential candidate to get the triple crown but wasn't even the best hitter in the lineup (Betts) was pretty remarkable. Benintendi hit .290 as did Bogaerts and the Brockstar/Pearce both ~.280. The only weaker elements there were JBJ, who won the Golden Glove, and of course Devers. That's as absolutely stacked a lineup as we've seen. Throw in the rotation of Sale, Price, Porcello, Eovaldi and E-Rod and it's hard to deny the squad Dombrowski built, and Cora had at his disposal, was arguably the best Sox team we've seen. Anyway, I agree with your latter point, mostly. It's odd that Cora wields the power he does and I think it's exceedingly problematic when it comes to trying to hire a GM that Alex is both unmovable and seemingly has a larger voice than he should. Further, I can't imagine a serious POBO would be interested in being a stop-gap solution to Cora's inevitable ascension to the throne. I think FSG have dropped the ball massively here, but it is what it is. Romero still seems the best option to me as he knows the org and the expectations and, should, work well with Cora.
|
|
|
Post by FenwayFanatic on Oct 22, 2023 13:00:19 GMT -5
I don’t get the concern about Cora. He’s maybe the thing I’m least concerned about right now. If they hired Eddie and kept Cora that’d be awesome.
They have some time to rebuild their reputation around the league.
|
|
nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,936
Member is Online
|
Post by nomar on Oct 22, 2023 13:09:09 GMT -5
On what planet is he better than Francona was? The one where 2011 happened? He was way too much of a players manager. It worked well at times but I much prefer Cora’s approach and I’m sure others do as well. I know it was over a decade ago but some of you guys really seem to not remember Francona’s deficiencies. Francona’s lowest win total here was 86. Cora has a 51.2% W-L excluding 2018. They’re not even in the same stratosphere IMO.
|
|
|
Post by danredhawk on Oct 22, 2023 13:30:00 GMT -5
The one where 2011 happened? He was way too much of a players manager. It worked well at times but I much prefer Cora’s approach and I’m sure others do as well. I know it was over a decade ago but some of you guys really seem to not remember Francona’s deficiencies. Francona’s lowest win total here was 86. Cora has a 51.2% W-L excluding 2018. They’re not even in the same stratosphere IMO. Outside of 2018 they’ve hardly managed rosters from the same stratosphere either. Cora is a huge reason, IMO, and obviously ownership’s opinion, too, why the team has found itself reasonably competitive over the past few season… There is not a manager in baseball who turns a losing roster into a winner. It’s not the nature of the sport. Good managers get their rosters to play to their best potential, and both Francona and Cora do that consistently… And - while few here may want to hear it it’s less about decisions in singular moments over 162 games and more about communication, trust, keeping players in the right space mentally and giving them opportunity to maximize their talent… This year’s team was never going to be a good team, but they essentially won to the peak of every objective prediction and that deserves credit where credit is due…
|
|
|
Post by incandenza on Oct 22, 2023 13:47:31 GMT -5
Franconaâs lowest win total here was 86. Cora has a 51.2% W-L excluding 2018. Theyâre not even in the same stratosphere IMO. Outside of 2018 theyâve hardly managed rosters from the same stratosphere either. Cora is a huge reason, IMO, and obviously ownershipâs opinion, too, why the team has found itself reasonably competitive over the past few season⦠There is not a manager in baseball who turns a losing roster into a winner. Itâs not the nature of the sport. Good managers get their rosters to play to their best potential, and both Francona and Cora do that consistently⦠And - while few here may want to hear it itâs less about decisions in singular moments over 162 games and more about communication, trust, keeping players in the right space mentally and giving them opportunity to maximize their talent⦠This yearâs team was never going to be a good team, but they essentially won to the peak of every objective prediction and that deserves credit where credit is due⦠What do you base that on? The projections were all around 80 wins, as I recall, and they undershot that. Meanwhile the projections were for 85ish wins in 2022 and they undershot that by even more.
And then, like, what miracles did Cora work to get the team to 78 wins, in your view? Did his dogged insistence that Kiké could handle SS pay dividends? Did he find a way to get Houck to turn the corner on his 5th inning troubles? Did his public stern dad act with Verdugo really work wonders?
|
|
|
Post by FenwayFanatic on Oct 22, 2023 14:01:14 GMT -5
My point was also that Cora is “arguably” better. Not definitely better. Just my opinion that Cora is better. I don’t think Cora would’ve presided over a collapse like 2011.
|
|
|
Post by dcsoxfan15 on Oct 22, 2023 14:29:14 GMT -5
My point was also that Cora is “arguably” better. Not definitely better. Just my opinion that Cora is better. I don’t think Cora would’ve presided over a collapse like 2011. The Red Sox went 9-19 in September this year, and looked absolutely lifeless. While it's not a total collapse, the lifeless play was pathetic to watch, and should be considered when we discuss Cora.
|
|
|
Post by bosox904 on Oct 22, 2023 14:31:51 GMT -5
My point was also that Cora is “arguably” better. Not definitely better. Just my opinion that Cora is better. I don’t think Cora would’ve presided over a collapse like 2011. No, instead he presided over two teams that gave up two year in a row.
|
|
|
Post by FenwayFanatic on Oct 22, 2023 14:38:29 GMT -5
My point was also that Cora is “arguably” better. Not definitely better. Just my opinion that Cora is better. I don’t think Cora would’ve presided over a collapse like 2011. The Red Sox went 9-19 in September this year, and looked absolutely lifeless. While it's not a total collapse, the lifeless play was pathetic to watch, and should be considered when we discuss Cora. This team was nowhere near as talented as 2011. You know that man.
|
|
|
Post by dcsoxfan15 on Oct 22, 2023 14:43:40 GMT -5
The Red Sox went 9-19 in September this year, and looked absolutely lifeless. While it's not a total collapse, the lifeless play was pathetic to watch, and should be considered when we discuss Cora. This team was nowhere near as talented as 2011. You know that man. Was it a .320 winning percentage team? Why does Cora get a pass from everyone, I really don't understand it.
|
|
|
Post by incandenza on Oct 22, 2023 14:47:08 GMT -5
The Red Sox went 9-19 in September this year, and looked absolutely lifeless. While it's not a total collapse, the lifeless play was pathetic to watch, and should be considered when we discuss Cora. This team was nowhere near as talented as 2011. You know that man. True, and the way we know that is that the 2023 team won 78 games while the 2011 team won 90 games. But then that becomes an odd basis on which to claim that the 2023 manager would never do as poor a job as the 2011 manager.
Context matters, of course. I'm just not sure what the context is that would suggest that Cora did an especially good job since 2018. You could look at an objective measure like Zips projections and see that most players on the team underperformed their projections. So what's the counterargument?
|
|
|
Post by fenwaydouble on Oct 22, 2023 15:25:03 GMT -5
This team was nowhere near as talented as 2011. You know that man. Was it a .320 winning percentage team? Why does Cora get a pass from everyone, I really don't understand it. People don’t want Cora to get any blame because they want to believe Bloom is responsible for all the team’s ills. Which I can understand in the sense that Bloom is now gone, and it would be nice if he took all the problems with him. But I think it’s unlikely.
|
|
|
Post by danredhawk on Oct 22, 2023 15:37:50 GMT -5
This is why is discussing this between you and me is pointless Yes well. That's why I ended up deleting my comment. Feel free to do the same. For the record, though, I said I think Cora is fine. I also thought Bloom was fine. I'm not really sure why saying this was projected to be a .500 roster reads to you as a full-throated defense of Bloom, nor why asking for evidence that Cora has exceeded expectations reads as full-throated criticism. Done. I read the board. I know what your opinions are beyond individual posts. There’s not a manager in the sport who can turn lemons into lemonade - Cora did so once in the last three years and had the other two rosters threatening to do so at the deadline. Expecting more is unrealistic, nitpicking singular decisions is pointless, asking why he didn’t magically eliminate clear and long standing individual flaws and create all-stars out of every men raises questions of full-throated criticism or an agenda… When the rosters return to good and he doesn’t ONLY win the WS I’ll be open to debate on Cora. I’ll also go on record as believing, that when he is no longer appreciated in Boston he will go on to success elsewhere (a la Francona), where as others involved in 2023 likely will not… Francona is a great example of an excellent manager being far from perfect and far from a miracle worker. And still being excellent.
|
|
|
Post by greenmonster on Oct 22, 2023 16:15:27 GMT -5
For me the biggest frustration with Cora is the teams lack of fundamentals. I mean they had base runners running into outs on the bases, zero situational hitting, fielders throwing to the wrong bases, failing to back up bases, etc. Granted players shouldn't be learning these things at the major league level. Some of these things are actually learned in little league. However, a major league team should be reinforcing these fundamentals on a regular basis. Perhaps Cora was doing that but if he was I would have expected better
|
|
|
Post by pappyman99 on Oct 22, 2023 16:39:18 GMT -5
I just donât get how the same people who want to give all this credit to Bloom for 2021 donât want to give it to Cora?
He worked miracles to get us as far as we did. Hence while it was sad to lose in the alcs everyone was pretty damn proud
Why did Barraclough come in? Why Kiké at SS? Why did he bring in Ort? Etc
Itâs like no why were those the best options he was left to work with on the 26 man roster?
This whole âno one wants to work the the Soxâ is so made up. Bloom was surprised a little over 30 days ago, why is it surprising that the new gm is not hired yet?
People decline interviews all the time, they will be done when the World Series is done
|
|
|
Post by iakovos11 on Oct 22, 2023 17:26:32 GMT -5
Hey guys, this is the search for next CBO, not who was the best/worst Sox manager of all time.
Let's steer this back to thread title, please.
|
|
keninten
Veteran
Posts: 700
Member is Online
|
Post by keninten on Oct 22, 2023 21:15:05 GMT -5
Hey guys, this is the search for next CBO, not who was the best/worst Sox manager of all time. Let's steer this back to thread title, please. Can we get all the managerial discussion moved to a new thread?
|
|
|
Post by tdaignault on Oct 22, 2023 22:07:14 GMT -5
Hey guys, this is the search for next CBO, not who was the best/worst Sox manager of all time. Let's steer this back to thread title, please. Can we get all the managerial discussion moved to a new thread? Darn, I was hoping this new message was about the new CBO! I did see the nugget from Cotillo on the Giants pitching coach, Andrew Bailey, potentially becoming available . . . and he ties to . . . wait for it . . . Craig Breslow. I am all aboard the Breslow train!
|
|
|