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Red Sox and Large Contracts, Historically
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Post by lronhoyabembe on Dec 8, 2023 16:49:50 GMT -5
I know people around here have been frustrated lately by the Red Sox and their apparent unwillingness to make splashy moves. I think we can gain some perspective by looking at their history of "big moves." Surprisingly, it was not so easy to find a list like this. I looked at Cot's and Sportrac and picked out all the deals the Red Sox have given out since 2000 over 4 years in length as a somewhat arbitrary cutoff. I may have missed some since I know Sportrac was missing JD Drew for example, and neither included international signings. You can judge for yourself whether there has been any change in their splashiness, or whether there should be. Year | Player | Years | Dollars (MM) | 2000 | Ramirez, M | 8 | 160 | 2001 | Damon | 4 | 31 | 2004 | Foulke | 4 | 25.5 | 2005 | Renteria | 5 | 40 | 2005 | Varitek | 5 | 40 | 2006 | Ortiz* | 4 | 52 | 2007 | Lugo | 4 | 36 | 2007 | Matsuzaka | 6 | 103** | 2007 | Drew | 5 | 55 | 2009 | Lackey | 5 | 82.5 | 2009 | Lester* | 5 | 30 | 2010 | Crawford | 7 | 142
| 2011 | Beckett* | 4 | 68 | 2011 | Buchholz* | 4 | 30 | 2011 | Gonzalez* | 7 | 154 | 2013 | Pedroia* | 8 | 110 | 2014 | Ramirez, H | 4 | 88 | 2014 | Sandoval | 5 | 95 | 2014 | Castillo | 7 | 72.5 | 2015 | Price | 7 | 217 | 2015 | Porcello* | 4 | 82.5 | 2018 | Martinez | 5 | 110 | 2018 | Eovaldi | 4 | 68 | 2019 | Sale* | 5 | 145 | 2019 | Bogaerts* | 6 | 120 | 2022 | Story | 6 | 140 | 2022 | Whitlock* | 4 | 19 | 2023 | Yoshida | 5 | 90 | 2023 | Devers* | 10 | 312 |
* extension ** I lumped in the posting fee
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Post by James Dunne on Dec 8, 2023 18:32:04 GMT -5
There've been a couple disasters (Sandoval, Crawford, Castillo) and a couple other "meh" in here (like Renteria didn't quite work out but not really in a way that was harmful), but overall that's a pretty damn good list of baseball players.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Dec 8, 2023 18:36:41 GMT -5
That is a long list of WS winners
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 8, 2023 19:30:02 GMT -5
That is a long list of WS winners The usual typical reaction is cool we got a new toy, something interesting to talk about. I think that's the case with most of the names on the list. We try to justify it in our minds but worry about the reservations that come attached with the player. Some were obvious problems waiting to happen from go. Yeah happy to have Sandoval. He should be better than Middlebrooks was and has been a big game player and even batted .330. Just hope he doesnt self combust at homeplate. Stuff like that. What could go wrong with Rusney "the answer to Abreu" Castillo? Some had serious injury concerns attached. I mean was Sale not second guessed immediately except for me thinking Duquette was getting a lower annual value and shorter deal to account for his obvious TJ need. Some of these guys certainly werent worth the money as far as the WAR/$ value goes but they contributed to champion Red Sox teams of our lifetime. I understand their flags fly forever guys and strict numerical guys thinking they can just about squeeze efficiency out of just about everything. For me I dont care that Keith Foulke or Victorino or Lackey or even freaking David Price didnt live up to the totality of their values. They directly contributed to memories that will last my lifetime and even those of the guys who paid for them depending upon whether winning championships or generating the biggest profits floats their boats. Some of the guys...well Soto was a trade, bit a free agent, but the excitement that the Yankees fans feel for Soto was how I felt when Manny came aboard. Some of these deals were legacy deals so I dont have an issue with them. Hardly think Varitek bankrupted them and they would have had better options. They got 3 productive seasons out of him before the bat died. No regrets about Pedroia. The dude should never be in a uniform other than the Sox. Glad he stuck around long enough to get a 3rd ring. Some were obvious disasters from go like Crawford,like Hanley's return and shift to LF of you were being honest with yourself. We knew Gonzalez had shoulder issues and Drew misses games. All in all I dont think they did too badly over the years.
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Post by asm19 on Dec 8, 2023 20:00:48 GMT -5
This is super helpful - nice work.
Wow, I did not remember that A-gon got a 7/154 mil extension. Over a decade later Freddie Freeman received only 6/162 from the Dodgers.
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Post by bluechip on Dec 9, 2023 0:38:34 GMT -5
This is super helpful - nice work. Wow, I did not remember that A-gon got a 7/154 mil extension. Over a decade later Freddie Freeman received only 6/162 from the Dodgers. At the time it was the fourth largest contract extension in history or so says this article. syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/674378-adrian-gonzalez-and-the-10-largest-contract-extensions-in-mlb-history.amp.htmlIt started off very good with that monster 2011. He was still so good in 2012, that the Dodgers gave up legit prospects and took Crawford and Beckett in order to acquire him. He also did play well for a lot of that contract though he was ultimately released. I’m sure you know all of that, but I do remember that he was seen as one of the best players in the game at the time. And the Red Sox certainly didn’t regret the extension in that it freed them from other bad contracts, which in turn allowed them to build a World Series winner.
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Post by buffs4444 on Dec 9, 2023 2:00:35 GMT -5
Sigh, what could have been, Adrian Gonzalez. What could have been if only CC didn’t forget ‘how to baseball’ immediately after signing. Still, that first year OPS, A-Gone……what could have been indeed….
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steveofbradenton
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Post by steveofbradenton on Dec 9, 2023 9:55:44 GMT -5
Very interesting list, and has been said...some clunkers. But I'm sorry, it is time to start thinking big once again. Yamamoto and Montgomery will cost, a lot, but it needs to done.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 9, 2023 10:26:03 GMT -5
Very interesting list, and has been said...some clunkers. But I'm sorry, it is time to start thinking big once again. Yamamoto and Montgomery will cost, a lot, but it needs to done. It would also preserve the big 3 of Mayer, Anthony, and Teel so they dont have to he traded away for a starter.
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TearsIn04
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Post by TearsIn04 on Dec 9, 2023 10:59:16 GMT -5
That's a great list and kudos to lronhoyabembe for compiling it. I wondered why the GOAT was missing but quickly realized that deal came prior to the '98 season after DD acquired the GOAT from Montreal, so too early for this list.
I think you can break the list down like this:
The Gold Club. We'd do it again. Ramirez (based just on on-field performance) Damon Foulke Varitek Ortiz Lester Pedroia JDM X
Flags Fly Forever These guys provided value for only a portion of their contracts, but contributed mightily to rings.
Dice-K Drew (His slam in game 6 of the '07 ALCS was worth the $70M IMO. As you can tell, I'm a big believer in FFE.) Lackey Price Porcello Buccholz (Cy Young bound in '13 before he got hurt and he gave us some valuable, gutsy innings in the ALCS and WS.)
Disasters. Call FEMA. Lugo (The money and years weren't huge, but he produced -.3 B-Ref WAR during the four years.) Crawford (I confess that I loved the signing at the time.) H. Ramirez Sandoval Castillo Sale
Still pending Story Yoshida Devers
Yoshi and Story are likely to produce some value during the time left on their contracts, but I wish we weren't carrying either one. I'm not crazy about the Devers deal but not losing sleep over it either. I love Raffy and ~4-WAR players aren't nothing.
Others Renteria and A-Gon didn't provide much to the Red Sox but the organization moved on quickly from each of them in trades that worked out nicely. They got Andy Marte for Rent and flipped Marte for Coco Crisp. Handing A-Gon to the LAD made it possible to get rid of Crawford and Beckett. Moving all that salary set up BC's incredible 2012-'13 off-season and the 2013 championship.
Beckett (I think he's missing from the list) also falls into the Others category.
Whitlock's contract doesn't fit nicely into any category above but it's so team friendly that it's impossible not to like it. Eo's deal was YMMV.
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Smittyw
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Post by Smittyw on Dec 9, 2023 11:09:02 GMT -5
Re: the Price contract, they really had to sign him that offseason, just as they virtually have to land Yamamoto/Montgomery (at a minimum) this winter. Sometimes a need is so glaring you just have to push your chips to the middle and do what it takes. While that signing didn't work out perfectly, I think you'd do it again every single time.
(They really should have signed Scherzer the year before, though..)
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Post by scottysmalls on Dec 9, 2023 11:23:32 GMT -5
That's a great list and kudos to lronhoyabembe for compiling it. I wondered why the GOAT was missing but quickly realized that deal came prior to the '98 season after DD acquired the GOAT from Montreal, so too early for this list. I think you can break the list down like this: The Gold Club. We'd do it again.Ramirez (based just on on-field performance) Damon Foulke Varitek Ortiz Lester Pedroia JDM X Flags Fly ForeverThese guys provided value for only a portion of their contracts, but contributed mightily to rings. Dice-K Drew (His slam in game 6 of the '07 ALCS was worth the $70M IMO. As you can tell, I'm a big believer in FFE.) Lackey Price Porcello Buccholz (Cy Young bound in '13 before he got hurt and he gave us some valuable, gutsy innings in the ALCS and WS.) Disasters. Call FEMA.Lugo (The money and years weren't huge, but he produced -.3 B-Ref WAR during the four years.) Crawford (I confess that I loved the signing at the time.) H. Ramirez Sandoval Castillo Sale Still pendingStory Yoshida Devers Yoshi and Story are likely to produce some value during the time left on their contracts, but I wish we weren't carrying either one. I'm not crazy about the Devers deal but not losing sleep over it either. I love Raffy and ~4-WAR players aren't nothing. OthersRenteria and A-Gon didn't provide much to the Red Sox but the organization moved on quickly from each of them in trades that worked out nicely. They got Andy Marte for Rent and flipped Marte for Coco Crisp. Handing A-Gon to the LAD made it possible to get rid of Crawford and Beckett. Moving all that salary set up BC's incredible 2012-'13 off-season and the 2013 championship. Beckett (I think he's missing from the list) also falls into the Others category. Whitlock's contract doesn't fit nicely into any category above but it's so team friendly that it's impossible not to like it. Eo's deal was YMMV. Nitpicky here but I'd move JD Drew up to the top tier.
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TearsIn04
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Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,837
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Post by TearsIn04 on Dec 9, 2023 11:34:49 GMT -5
That's a great list and kudos to lronhoyabembe for compiling it. I wondered why the GOAT was missing but quickly realized that deal came prior to the '98 season after DD acquired the GOAT from Montreal, so too early for this list. I think you can break the list down like this: The Gold Club. We'd do it again.Ramirez (based just on on-field performance) Damon Foulke Varitek Ortiz Lester Pedroia JDM X Flags Fly ForeverThese guys provided value for only a portion of their contracts, but contributed mightily to rings. Dice-K Drew (His slam in game 6 of the '07 ALCS was worth the $70M IMO. As you can tell, I'm a big believer in FFE.) Lackey Price Porcello Buccholz (Cy Young bound in '13 before he got hurt and he gave us some valuable, gutsy innings in the ALCS and WS.) Disasters. Call FEMA.Lugo (The money and years weren't huge, but he produced -.3 B-Ref WAR during the four years.) Crawford (I confess that I loved the signing at the time.) H. Ramirez Sandoval Castillo Sale Still pendingStory Yoshida Devers Yoshi and Story are likely to produce some value during the time left on their contracts, but I wish we weren't carrying either one. I'm not crazy about the Devers deal but not losing sleep over it either. I love Raffy and ~4-WAR players aren't nothing. OthersRenteria and A-Gon didn't provide much to the Red Sox but the organization moved on quickly from each of them in trades that worked out nicely. They got Andy Marte for Rent and flipped Marte for Coco Crisp. Handing A-Gon to the LAD made it possible to get rid of Crawford and Beckett. Moving all that salary set up BC's incredible 2012-'13 off-season and the 2013 championship. Beckett (I think he's missing from the list) also falls into the Others category. Whitlock's contract doesn't fit nicely into any category above but it's so team friendly that it's impossible not to like it. Eo's deal was YMMV. Nitpicky here but I'd move JD Drew up to the top tier. That's a fair observation. A number of these guys could arguably be placed in different categories. I considered Foulke for the FFE group. But then I looked him up and saw that he was a somewhat-useful, not terrible reliever in '06, which I had forgotten. Also, his '04 PS performance makes it impossible for me to imagine a Gold Club without him. I mean it was 0 f'n 4! That counts for a ton.
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Post by lronhoyabembe on Dec 9, 2023 12:10:44 GMT -5
Beckett is indeed missing; I hadn't forgotten about him but I missed that he actually signed 2 extensions with the Red Sox. The first was for three years and $30MM, which missed the cutoff for the list. The second one came in 2011 and was for 4 years, $68MM
edit: I added Beckett to the table.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 9, 2023 12:22:15 GMT -5
Beckett is indeed missing; I hadn't forgotten about him but I missed that he actually signed 2 extensions with the Red Sox. The first was for three years and $30MM, which missed the cutoff for the lost. The second one came in 2011 and was for 4 years, $68MM Great work. Just to extend it out toward the more modern big contracts I'd include Pedro Martinez's extension upon being traded to the Sox from Montreal in the offseason of 97-98. Plus the Jose Offerman deal which I think was a 4 year deal in which he played well for the first year 1999, helped the team in a 94 win season deep playoff run but was awful afterwards. I understand you wanted a cutoff year and if you wanted to, you could go all the way back to the Mike Torrez 7 year deal and the Jim Rice 7 year extension that I think occurred in the late 1970s, which were massive deals for its times or their first big free agent deal, the 5 year deal for closer Bill Campbell who was great in 77 and was overused and virtually injured and marginally effective the rest of his tenure. I think your list shows that you have to expect that you're not going to get full value for free agent signings, that you have to be careful with players with injury issues like Adrian Gonzalez's shoulder which sapped his power and Chris Sale who was obviously headed for TJS. It also shows that a good deal of winning was connected to these players as well and all in all I think they've done alright in free agency. I'd guess you see similar track records with other franchises in free agency as far as whether it was worth it or not as opposed to whether they got full value or not.
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