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Post by jmei on Aug 19, 2013 12:41:31 GMT -5
The fact that neither Dempster nor Farrell is willing to admit that ARod got drilled on purpose is, what's the word? Gutless.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Aug 19, 2013 13:20:01 GMT -5
The fact that neither Dempster nor Farrell is willing to admit that ARod got drilled on purpose is, what's the word? Gutless. Nope. Not so. Remember a series vs. Cleveland when Pena said outright that Clemens nailed someone on the tribe for a reason.. Don't remember who, but Tony Pena admitted it and BOTH Pena and Clemens got like 5 games each. Admit it and for sure both Farrell and Dempster go bye bye for suspensions, keep it like this? Where just Rodriquez and the rest of the world knows, without a word being admitted? Nothing is proven. Rodriquez's defense of steroids.. "nothing is proven, so I can play", same thing. He ain't admitting anything and neither should Demp/Farrell.
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Post by jmei on Aug 19, 2013 13:25:27 GMT -5
That's fine. Neither Dempster nor Farrell helped the team last night and they could both use a time-out to think about their actions.
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Post by jmei on Aug 19, 2013 13:28:09 GMT -5
Plus, if you're going to participate in baseball's ridiculous macho culture and throw a hard object at another human being at 90 mph because you don't like him, might as well man up afterwards and admit it, right?
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Post by johnsilver52 on Aug 19, 2013 14:34:21 GMT -5
Plus, if you're going to participate in baseball's ridiculous macho culture and throw a hard object at another human being at 90 mph because you don't like him, might as well man up afterwards and admit it, right? I guess we can all go there, then look how tame the game is now? Players literally jump towards the plate before the pitch is thrown that no self respecting pitcher would have tolerated even a mere 30Y ago without knocking that hitter on his duff. Then there was Nolan Ryan, who wouldn't bother with throwing a 'simple hard object" at another person, but rather behind their head and at speeds of 95-100mph for "purely intimidation purposes" supposedly, yet some players DID back up into that pitch once or twice and take it off of the helmet, including former Sox great Dwight Evans who ceased playing in games Ryan played.. Ryan's "intimidation" succeeding there and nothing done about it.. Warnings, suspensions.. The above mentioned Ryne Duren by myself who averaged a HBP once every 15IP.. It was mostly intentional who entered the game and then would peer in from the mound and auto unload his 1st warmup halfway up the backstop. Maybe they should go back to head hunters again? Gibby (Bob Gibson) wasn't a bad one either.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Aug 19, 2013 14:43:55 GMT -5
Plus, if you're going to participate in baseball's ridiculous macho culture and throw a hard object at another human being at 90 mph because you don't like him, might as well man up afterwards and admit it, right? I guess we can all go there, then look how tame the game is now? Players literally jump towards the plate before the pitch is thrown that no self respecting pitcher would have tolerated even a mere 30Y ago without knocking that hitter on his duff. Then there was Nolan Ryan, who wouldn't bother with throwing a 'simple hard object" at another person, but rather behind their head and at speeds of 95-100mph for "purely intimidation purposes" supposedly, yet some players DID back up into that pitch once or twice and take it off of the helmet, including former Sox great Dwight Evans who ceased playing in games Ryan played.. Ryan's "intimidation" succeeding there and nothing done about it.. Warnings, suspensions.. The above mentioned Ryne Duren by myself who averaged a HBP once every 15IP.. It was mostly intentional who entered the game and then would peer in from the mound and auto unload his 1st warmup halfway up the backstop. Maybe they should go back to head hunters again? Gibby (Bob Gibson) wasn't a bad one either. Why? Ok, so it happened more in the past. So what? Why does that make it a good thing?
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Post by elguapo on Aug 19, 2013 15:13:38 GMT -5
The real problem is that these batters try to hit the ball so hard when they know there are 8 fielders plus umps and ball boys - I mean, ball persons - not to mention people in the stands, who could be struck at a high velocity and seriously injured, not to mention the perils of foul balls. Take a bat and ball onto a city street and start whacking it at people and see if you don't get arrested for assault with felonious intent!
Clearly it's past time to put up netting in front of the pitcher, the infielders, and while we're at it can we ban spikes, and sliding entirely? It's just a recipe for workplace injuries!
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Post by jmei on Aug 19, 2013 15:31:36 GMT -5
Intent matters.
And yes, they do put up netting in the areas most likely to cause injury to bystanders. Umps wear armor, ball-boys have helmets, and there's talk if making pitchers wear protective hat linings. You think that should all be removed?
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Post by jmei on Aug 19, 2013 15:35:26 GMT -5
I've also yet to hear a single coherent defense of the intentional HBP, by the way. How is it beneficial to baseball? Anyone?
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Post by Guidas on Aug 19, 2013 15:47:07 GMT -5
I've also yet to hear a single coherent defense of the intentional HBP, by the way. How is it beneficial to baseball? Anyone? Never understood a pitcher drilling a guy if he homered off him. Always seemed like a pussy move. The only time I think it's justified is if they deliberately threw at one of your guys. It's one of the few things about the DH I don't like because I always felt if a pitcher did this he should get one in the ribs next time he's up.
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Post by elguapo on Aug 19, 2013 16:08:54 GMT -5
I've also yet to hear a single coherent defense of the intentional HBP, by the way. How is it beneficial to baseball? Anyone? Retaliation, obviously. Player-administered punishment for unsporstmanlike conduct. I don't have a problem with it unless the offense is nonexistent and/or a product of the pitcher's imagination. Besides, how do you plan on getting rid of it? If you put down the hammer on ones that look too obvious, pitchers will do it less obviously. Snap back to reality. And I'll cry a few tears for guys who are plunked in the side the day players give up diving over the plate. Apparently being hit by pitch is not considered a deathly concern. Maybe that's the real crime - it's just way too dangerous for pitchers to throw the ball so darn hard where it can potentially strike the batter - can we please add restrictor plates in pitching arms?
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Post by hammerhead on Aug 19, 2013 16:12:30 GMT -5
I'll give you a rational Baseball reason the Beaning was beneficial:
Dempster sucks so bad that chances are that A-rod would have took him deep in that AB anyway , or doubled or tripled. Might as well hit him and take the bat out of his hand making yourself a Folk hero in Fenway forever.
The HBP was meaningless in the outcome of the game, you take away A-rod's run and the sox still loose.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 19, 2013 16:35:02 GMT -5
I'll give you a rational Baseball reason the Beaning was beneficial: Dempster sucks so bad that chances are that A-rod would have took him deep in that AB anyway , or doubled or tripled. Might as well hit him and take the bat out of his hand making yourself a Folk hero in Fenway forever. The HBP was meaningless in the outcome of the game, you take away A-rod's run and the sox still loose. Say A-Rod gets on base 40% of the time versus Dempster, there's still a 60% chance he gets him out and it's zero if he's trying to hit him, and if you're going to do something that stupid - DO NOT hit the leadoff guy of an inning, especially with decent hitters coming up behind him. It's quite a stupid thing to do. And quite selfish, too. I can't stand A-Rod anymore than anybody else can, but last night the Sox made him look sympathethic on national TV, and then united and ignited their team, enjoyed the humiliation of an A-Rod F-U in your face homerun which ignited a second rally involving A-Rod, this one resulting in the Sox losing the lead for good. But hey if it makes somebody feel so macho because A-Rod got drilled, then more power to you. The Red Sox should have more important things to do, like trying to hang on to first place, which they're not doing too good a job of.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 19, 2013 16:41:25 GMT -5
The fact that neither Dempster nor Farrell is willing to admit that ARod got drilled on purpose is, what's the word? Gutless. Nope. Not so. Remember a series vs. Cleveland when Pena said outright that Clemens nailed someone on the tribe for a reason.. Don't remember who, but Tony Pena admitted it and BOTH Pena and Clemens got like 5 games each. Admit it and for sure both Farrell and Dempster go bye bye for suspensions, keep it like this? Where just Rodriquez and the rest of the world knows, without a word being admitted? Nothing is proven. Rodriquez's defense of steroids.. "nothing is proven, so I can play", same thing. He ain't admitting anything and neither should Demp/Farrell. I remember 1990. It was Indians leadoff hitter Stan Jefferson who got drilled by Clemens. I remember manager Joe Morgan being asked about the intent of the pitch and instead of pulling a John Farrell, I think he said something like, "We voted as a team and it was unanimous 35-0 that we were going to hit him", and for his honesty he got fined, but I recall people respecting his candor, and Joe Morgan was an honest man and one of the better managers the Sox have had in my lifetime. I think the Sox did it to come together as a team that year. They had a miserable 1989 season which featured a fight where Joe Price or Mike Smithson hit somebody and when the other team ran out on the field, practically nobody came to the aid of the pitcher prompting Mike Greenwell to label his teammates as "a bunch of whimps and fairies" and when asked his opinion of Greenwell's comments, honest Joe Morgan said it was "an accurate assessment". So when the Sox acted like tough-guy idiots that day in 1990, they all rallied around Clemens and that meant that they were united, something they hadn't been in 1989. Don't know if it mattered much, but the Sox did squeeze out the division title in 1990, and they couldn't do that it 1989, despite a weak division.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Aug 19, 2013 16:59:25 GMT -5
I'll give you a rational Baseball reason the Beaning was beneficial: Dempster sucks so bad that chances are that A-rod would have took him deep in that AB anyway , or doubled or tripled. Might as well hit him and take the bat out of his hand making yourself a Folk hero in Fenway forever. The HBP was meaningless in the outcome of the game, you take away A-rod's run and the sox still loose. Which is frankly disgusting in it's own right. 30,000+ people cheering for an injury because apparently that's the appropriate course of action when someone does something you don't like-- physically attack them. For fuck's sake, we expect better behavior out of six year old children. Just shameful.
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Post by jmei on Aug 19, 2013 17:05:40 GMT -5
I've also yet to hear a single coherent defense of the intentional HBP, by the way. How is it beneficial to baseball? Anyone? Retaliation, obviously. Player-administered punishment for unsporstmanlike conduct. I don't have a problem with it unless the offense is nonexistent and/or a product of the pitcher's imagination. Besides, how do you plan on getting rid of it? If you put down the hammer on ones that look too obvious, pitchers will do it less obviously. Snap back to reality. And I'll cry a few tears for guys who are plunked in the side the day players give up diving over the plate. Apparently being hit by pitch is not considered a deathly concern. Maybe that's the real crime - it's just way too dangerous for pitchers to throw the ball so darn hard where it can potentially strike the batter - can we please add restrictor plates in pitching arms? Unsportsmanlike conduct? Like lingering a little too long in the batter's box after hitting a home run or saying something mean about you in the media or appealing a PED suspension as permitted under the Collective Bargaining Agreement? Give me a break. Most of the more egregious forms of unsportsmanlike conduct have official umpire-administered penalties (e.g., balks, running outside the basepaths, etc). Almost everything else that might "earn retaliation" is a petty, imagined slight. Care to give an example of what would warrant a HBP? (By the way, leaning out over the plate isn't actually against MLB rules.) I don't particularly care how one might implement a policy that would remove intentional beaning from the game. I just think it's a stupid, juvenile aspect of baseball culture that would be better off going away. It certainly shouldn't be glorified, especially when it cost the Red Sox a game.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Aug 19, 2013 17:09:32 GMT -5
...appealing a PED suspension as permitted under the Collective Bargaining Agreement? Which, it should be pointed out, is exactly what every pitcher ever suspended for beaning someone does. When was the last time John Lackey got upset about that? The union really needs to talk to these players about not trashing their own rights.
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Post by charliezink16 on Aug 19, 2013 18:12:24 GMT -5
I'll give you a rational Baseball reason the Beaning was beneficial: Dempster sucks so bad that chances are that A-rod would have took him deep in that AB anyway , or doubled or tripled. Might as well hit him and take the bat out of his hand making yourself a Folk hero in Fenway forever. The HBP was meaningless in the outcome of the game, you take away A-rod's run and the sox still loose. Which is frankly disgusting in it's own right. 30,000+ people cheering for an injury because apparently that's the appropriate course of action when someone does something you don't like-- physically attack them. For fuck's sake, we expect better behavior out of six year old children. Just shameful. The way you state everything makes it sound like you are ALWAYS correct and every other opinion should be disregarded. I know there is a chance for injury every time someone is hit by a pitch, but how often does it happen? Seriously what percentage of HBP's result in injury? While you're lecturing everyone on how throwing a ball at someone is assault, why don't you tell us how the NBA should ban driving into the paint (because, you know, a guy taking a charge could hit his head on the floor), the NFL should ban the whole tackling aspect of the game (who needs that), and the NHL should ban checking and have all fights broken up immediately. When it comes down to it, eliminating things like fighting in hockey, railroading the catcher, etc. would be bad for the game because, simply put, it's part of the game. These things may not fill the seats, but eliminating it sure would decrease many peoples interest in the sport. And sure, A-Rod has the right to appeal, but when 13 guys named on a list are suspended for illegal drugs, and EVERY SINGLE ONE forfeits their right to appeal other than him, clearly something is wrong. Everyone knew he cheated multiple times, tried to cover it up in many different ways, and ratted out other players. Yet he comes back to the game, acts like everything is cool, and expects to be treated just like everyone else? So one guy intentionally throws at his feet then his back and you're claiming it's assault? Come on man, you're entitled to your opinion, and I'll always respect that, but when you come on here and act like your opinion is the RIGHT opinion, and everyone else is just an idiot for thinking otherwise, well it gets on my nerves. So there's my opinion on the matter.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Aug 19, 2013 18:18:32 GMT -5
Intent matters. And yes, they do put up netting in the areas most likely to cause injury to bystanders. Umps wear armor, ball-boys have helmets, and there's talk if making pitchers wear protective hat linings. You think that should all be removed? While I think the idea of coaches being forced to wear helmets is rather silly.. The idea of pitchers HAVING to at least wear a hat "liner" that gives some protection to the part of the head covered by the baseball cap is a good idea and wouldn't really bother a ball player at all and sort of de-fuse arguments being made by pitchers against wearing an obstructive helmet, which could get in the way and probably hurt many pitchers via mechanics. For those not familiar with a hat liner? A few ball players used those under their caps when they went to the plate in the 50's, 60's and even 70's if they were grandfathered in that late as not having to use the mandatory helmet covering the ear. Bob Montgomery was the last active MLB player as recall to use one in a MLB game, he even caught with his ball cap and liner. Bringing those back would be a fair option for pitchers and have pondered that ever since the idea for pitchers has been floated.
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Post by grandsalami on Aug 19, 2013 18:19:46 GMT -5
...appealing a PED suspension as permitted under the Collective Bargaining Agreement? Which, it should be pointed out, is exactly what every pitcher ever suspended for beaning someone does. When was the last time John Lackey got upset about that? The union really needs to talk to these players about not trashing their own rights. I think the players are more upset about their union fees being used towards a lawyer for A-rod, when everyone else caught did the right thing and took the suspension, while now they (the players) are paying for a lawyer for a-rod when they and a-rod himself knows he did steroids
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Post by mgoetze on Aug 19, 2013 18:29:56 GMT -5
And sure, A-Rod has the right to appeal, but when 13 guys named on a list are suspended for illegal drugs, and EVERY SINGLE ONE forfeits their right to appeal other than him, clearly something is wrong. 12 of those guys got a 50-65 game suspension. A-Rod got 211 games. Yes, something is clearly wrong, and that is how arbitrary and capricious MLB is in deciding on punishments. But good job on ignoring all the facts in order to make your point.
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Post by grandsalami on Aug 19, 2013 18:37:39 GMT -5
And sure, A-Rod has the right to appeal, but when 13 guys named on a list are suspended for illegal drugs, and EVERY SINGLE ONE forfeits their right to appeal other than him, clearly something is wrong. 12 of those guys got a 50-65 game suspension. A-Rod got 211 games. Yes, something is clearly wrong, and that is how arbitrary and capricious MLB is in deciding on punishments. But good job on ignoring all the facts in order to make your point. none of the other players tried to buy/steal and destroy the evidence before MLB got it... thats why its larger
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Post by chavopepe2 on Aug 19, 2013 18:39:21 GMT -5
12 of those guys got a 50-65 game suspension. A-Rod got 211 games. Yes, something is clearly wrong, and that is how arbitrary and capricious MLB is in deciding on punishments. But good job on ignoring all the facts in order to make your point. none of the other players tried to buy/steal and destroy the evidence before MLB got it... thats why its larger Fine, but its not just larger - its 4X as large and a seemingly arbitrary number. I would appeal it too - even if I knew I was guilty.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Aug 19, 2013 18:52:17 GMT -5
12 of those guys got a 50-65 game suspension. A-Rod got 211 games. Yes, something is clearly wrong, and that is how arbitrary and capricious MLB is in deciding on punishments. But good job on ignoring all the facts in order to make your point. none of the other players tried to buy/steal and destroy the evidence before MLB got it... thats why its largerSo can you explain to me why the punishment for attempting to cover up a PED violation should be three times greater than the violation itself? It's ridiculous on it's face.
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Post by bigpupp on Aug 19, 2013 19:04:58 GMT -5
none of the other players tried to buy/steal and destroy the evidence before MLB got it... thats why its largerSo can you explain to me why the punishment for attempting to cover up a PED violation should be three times greater than the violation itself? It's ridiculous on it's face. This. Braun successfully covered up his PED use. Melky attempted to cover his up through a fake website. Those players got 65 and 50. 211 is a ridiculous number that in no way is justified, IMO.
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