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A Logical Look at Giancarlo Stanton
ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Nov 10, 2013 13:13:22 GMT -5
This is predicated on the assumption that we've checked out the medical background of Stanton's hamstring issues and feel they won't be an issue going forwad. IOW, if he's really ultra-desirable, what might it take to get him?
First of all, no Xander Bogaerts, obviously. And no Garin Cecchini, either, since he is likelier than not to be starting at 3B a year from now, and we have plenty of similar talent that is more expendable.
1) If we can re-sign Jacoby Ellsbury, Jackie Bradley is completely expendable. They have a similar young player in Jason Marisnick, but Bradley has been higher rated, and he's ready now, while Marisnick almost certainly needs a year in AAA after jumping from AA and struggling mightily. It's going to be much harder to do this deal if we need Bradley to play CF ourselves.
2) You can afford to trade Anthony Ranaudo, Matt Barnes, or Allen Webster. Right now, there's one spot open in the Pawtucket rotation for Hinojosa, De La Rosa, or Britton (and maybe Workman if you decide to send him down to learn to be an outstanding starter), and this would open up a second spot. I think they'd at least want Ranaudo, and you certainly wouldn't balk if they wanted Webster instead. The key question: would you be willing to give them Henry Owens instead? They're likely to ask (in fact, they might ask for both Owens and, say, De La Rosa). How far would you go?
2) Mookie Betts is an obvious guy to include: a likely top 100 prospect who's completely blocked at the MLB level, and is even blocking Sean Coyle at Portland. You'd of course offer them Coyle first, but that's unlikely to fly.
4) Christian Vazquez is a guy you'd unhesitatingly offer. Moving him solves the Pawtucket catching logjam, and it opens up a clear path for Blake Swihart. And, yes, I underlined him because they are almost certain to ask for him instead. Would you do that?
5) In scenarios where we have also re-signed Mike Napoli, Daniel Nava would be available. Since they're not winning anything next year, they could use him in LF, and have Christian Yelich play CF and Bradley RF for a year while they give Stanton's heir apparent, Marcell Ozuna, the year in AAA he probably needs. Or they could flip him to a contender for more prospects.
6) It's hard to know what kind of prospects you could get for Jake Peavy and/or Ryan Dempster (dealing both if we sign Tim Hudson), but they could be part of a multi-team deal that would add further prospects to the package.
7) While we're talking quantity over top-tier quality, there's obviously a wealth of further talent that could be added, starting with the likes of Manny Margot or Deven Marrero.
(And I will exclude my rant about how nice it would be to have Jose Iglesias to offer instead of the prospects we might get for Peavy.)
The essential problem here is that we are best positioned to overwhelm them with a large quantity of prospects that are the next step down from elite; we don't have a top 10 prospect that's blocked, the way the Tigers had Cameron Maybin blocked by Curtis Granderson when they traded for Miguel Cabrera. This strategy would play well if the Marlins had a bereft farm system, but in fact they have a fairly loaded one (ranked #5 by BA at the start of the year) after last winter's rounds of trades.
On the other hand, given the washout rate of even the best prospects, there's an argument that a large quantity of very good prospects with relatively high floors is a more attractive deal than a smaller package centered around one or two riskier, higher-upside types. When the Marlins essentially gave away Miguel Cabrera for nothing, Larry Beinfest was President of Baseball Ops, Michael Hill was GM, and Dan Jennings was Assistant GM. Now Beinfest has been canned, and Hill and Jennings have been promoted up a rung each. There may well be an organizational feeling that they don't want to repeat the Cabrera debacle by putting all their eggs in two prospect baskets (Andrew Miller was the other, of course), and that could make the back-the-truck-up-and-unload-the-farm-system-depth strategy viable.
So, the questions are, in your opinion:
1) Could Stanton be had without including Owens or Swihart? (I think you need one if there's no Bradley.) 2) If not, would you include Owens? 3) Would you include Swihart? 4) Would you include both?
Personally, I would include neither. I would try to clobber them with quantity. Bradley, Webster, Betts, Vazquez, Marrero, and the best prospect you get for Peavy does not sound to me like an insult or unfair. Tell me if I'm wrong.
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Post by jmei on Nov 10, 2013 13:23:06 GMT -5
The thing is, if Stanton's available, I think some other team will clobber the Marlins with both quantity and quality. For instance, the Cardinals both have the kind of young, high-ceiling pitching prospects that can serve as the centerpiece of a deal but also enough depth to offer enough B+ prospects as Boston. The Pirates can offer Polanco+. The Rangers have Profar and a few intriguing guys in the low minors. Yes, it's possible in a vacuum to see enough pieces to get Stanton without offering one Xander and your other top prospect binkies. But if the Marlins decide to shop Stanton, it's tough to see a trade getting done without both quantity and quality.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Nov 10, 2013 13:41:30 GMT -5
The thing is, if Stanton's available, I think some other team will clobber the Marlins with both quantity and quality. For instance, the Cardinals both have the kind of young, high-ceiling pitching prospects that can serve as the centerpiece of a deal but also enough depth to offer enough B+ prospects as Boston. The Pirates can offer Polanco+. The Rangers have Profar and a few intriguing guys in the low minors. Yes, it's possible in a vacuum to see enough pieces to get Stanton without offering one Xander and your other top prospect binkies. But if the Marlins decide to shop Stanton, it's tough to see a trade getting done without both quantity and quality. Good point, but I don't think the edge those other teams have is all that clear-cut. I'm not as high on Polanco as others, and he may well be the sort of guy the Marlins may be afraid of making the centerpiece of a deal: a young guy with great tools and merely good numbers. If the Rangers have any brains they'll keep Profar and deal Andrus, which is indeed what's rumored. And the Cardinals are indeed loaded with young arms, who are inherently riskier than position players, and I'm not sure they'd want to commit to Oscar Taveras in CF rather than in RF. And I'm not sure any of these teams can really match us for depth, as we have a good chance to become (IIRC) just the 3rd team to have 9 prospects in the top 100.
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Post by jmei on Nov 10, 2013 14:51:57 GMT -5
Yeah, the Red Sox have a ton of good depth in the system, but even in your proposal, there's JBJ and then just three back-end top 100 guys in Webster, Betts, and Vazquez (plus Marrero and whatever Peavy gets you, which doesn't amount to much I think). Any of those other organizations can match that offer without much problem, I think. If you want to make an offer like Bradley, Webster, Ranaudo, Barnes, Swihart, Betts, and a few lottery ticket types-- now that's a true "quantity" package that few other organizations can compile. But that guts Boston's depth, and seems too much to offer to me.
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Post by jbberlo22 on Nov 10, 2013 16:49:37 GMT -5
Honestly this trade is bradley (around mid 20s on most lists ive seen) one of the SP prospects in the 50s or 60s and then 2-3 guys borderline 100. You are saying that that is better than getting two top 10 prospects. Of course cabrera was slightly better at the time than stanton is now but most teams would much rather a few really good guys than alot of decent ones. Would you trade that package for two top ten prospects cause i sure would
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Post by sdiaz1 on Nov 10, 2013 22:48:34 GMT -5
If we are really going to have a serious discussion about getting Stanton, we must look at the Marlins system and consider what they need.
OF: Jackie Bradley is a very good prospect, but with the Marlins already having Yellich, Ozuna, and Marisnick in the high minors almost ready to contribute, they likely would not be content with JBJ being one of the integral pieces coming back.
Starting Pitching: Obviously every team could use more arms in the system, as the attrition rates for top pitching prospects can be even more cruel than those of position prospects. However with that said the Marlins have Fernadez (bona-fide stud), Jacob Turner (maybe he will someday be good), Nathan Eovaldi (3.59 FIP as 23 yr old) , and Henderson Alvarez (3.13 FIP as 23 yr old) in the majors. Then in the minors they have Andrew Heaney (3.41 FIP as a 22 yr old in AA), Justin Nicolino (3.03 FIP as a 22 yr old in A+), and Jose Urena (3.17 FIP as a 21 year old in A+). I have to admit that I do not know much about any of these guys outside of their stat lines (all of their k rates are underwhelming though) but it is likely that the Marlins would not really want a pitching heavy package, especially all righties.
Honestly I think they would want at the minimum of Cecchini, Swihart, Owens and Webster. Sure they may also ask for some lower level lottery ticket guys as well, but I think those four would need to be involved to get them to table.
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Post by cto94 on Nov 11, 2013 0:53:14 GMT -5
Using cabrera as a baseline is a little misleading though. Stanton has health issues and nothing like the track record Cabrera had when he was dealt. Cabrera was going into his age 25 season having played 4 full seasons with his worst slash line at .294/.366/.512. He took walks and was also not the defensive liability he is today. Sure Stanton could hit 50 homers every year, but he's going into his age 25 season with much worse numbers, injury problems, coming off a down year, and is clearly not happy with ownership, who we all know are probably not going to pay him anyway. Even in a seller's market, I can't see them bringing in a return quite that good. Personally I think you don't put Owens, Swihart or Bradley on the table; if we get Stanton, we're not keeping ellsbury and paying them both. Outside of those guys, I'd happily give up 4-5 of Betts, Barnes, Ranaudo, Webster, Middlebrooks, Cecchini, De la Rosa and the rest, and I imagine Workman would also have some value as well as being somewhat expendable right now. Doubront is also a cheap, proven back of the rotation starter and is only 26. So basically I think that we definitely have the pieces to put together a competitive deal without including more than one of the consensus top few guys; it remains to be seen how well the Marlins play their hand, and how much people really value Stanton
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Post by sdiaz1 on Nov 11, 2013 1:05:30 GMT -5
I get where you are coming from but I'd argue that the Marlins would likely not want both Barnes and Ranaudo and that WMB would be redundant if we packaged Cecchini as neither guy has the offensive profile for first and their outfield seems set. Maybe they would bite at a package centered on WMB (I may be focusing too much on what he does poorly rather than what he does well), Swihart, Barnes, and Betts. But I think that may be a stretch. Honestly, what their system is missing are impact guys in the infield and left handed pitching. There is no way we get around that. And while Doubie certainly has value, he too will soon be arb eligible and I doubt that Loria wants more than one guy who already has 2 years of service of time.
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Post by elguapo on Nov 11, 2013 10:32:12 GMT -5
I like elite players as much as the next guy but I'd rather keep my raft of very good prospects, which provide a team with cheap Major League talent and allow for the occasional huge free agent signing or re-signing.
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Post by pedroelgrande on Nov 11, 2013 11:25:53 GMT -5
I'd really like Stanton but I just don't see the motivation for the Marlins unless getting a quality offer. All the offers I have seen people cough up is basically " here the guys I don't like you can have them"
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Post by pedey on Nov 11, 2013 20:05:23 GMT -5
Stanton is a great player, but is very injury prone and it would take over half of the farm system to acquire. I don't think the Sox should trade away the future of the team for just one guy.
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Post by bmitchsox on Nov 12, 2013 11:35:59 GMT -5
Haha we could definitely use Iglesias right now! With Stanton's deep injury history and tendency to swing at some very bad pitches, I wouldn't haul the system for him, but I would make a competitive offer. I think Owens and Swihart should be off-limits, and I would assume Benny feels the same way. With Ellsbury most likely gone, I would definitely keep JBJ as the future CF.
I would offer Doubront/ Betts/ Webster (or Barnes, preferably Webster)/ Britton/ Vazquez/ Brentz/ Johnson/ Hassan. I think that could be enough to get the trade done. Doubront steps in at the #2, Webster at the #4, Betts could be starting 2b next year, Vazquez would compete at C, Britton would be a solid set up man, Brentz would challenge in the OF. For Stanton and possibly Cishek I could see this happening, they get a ton of quantity with high potentials, we get a OF who they soon cant afford to keep around, and a set-up man.
Another way I could see this happening, although I wouldn't prefer this quite as much, would be Middlebrooks, Doubront, Marrero, Brentz, Butler, Hassan for Stanton. Miami's GM has shown interest in WMB, I think this should work!
Now if Ellsbury somehow stays for say 5 years, then JBJ is much more likely, and valuable as a trade piece. JBJ, Webster, Marrero, Vazquez, Buttrey for Stanton seems likely.
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Post by cto94 on Nov 13, 2013 13:02:12 GMT -5
Another way I could see this happening, although I wouldn't prefer this quite as much, would be Middlebrooks, Doubront, Marrero, Brentz, Butler, Hassan for Stanton. Miami's GM has shown interest in WMB, I think this should work! Now if Ellsbury somehow stays for say 5 years, then JBJ is much more likely, and valuable as a trade piece. JBJ, Webster, Marrero, Vazquez, Buttrey for Stanton seems likely. That seems like a pretty weak return for them; I think they take at least 2 of Barnes, Webster, Ranaudo and De la Rosa if we can do it without Owens and Swihart, and they probably ask for Cecchini and a few higher upside guys. Hassan and Butler both seem like they're most likely to be platoon guys or borderline starters, and Brentz and Marrero aren't widely well regarded. I think it takes 4-5 top 100 guys to get Miami to pay attention at all, definitely including one of Middlebrooks or Cecchini, and probably a couple of the highest upside AAA/mlb arms. I think a certain amount of the conversation depends on the kind of deals that get done for Price, and maybe how the Cards address their shortstop hole. There aren't too many teams that could/would really get into the mix that could outbid the Sox, so if the Cards dip into their farm system for Tulowitzki (unlikely probably, but I've heard rumors), and the rangers flip andrus/profar and some others for Price, who else is going to hand over the prospects/package the sox can offer?
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Post by bmitchsox on Nov 13, 2013 17:53:04 GMT -5
Another way I could see this happening, although I wouldn't prefer this quite as much, would be Middlebrooks, Doubront, Marrero, Brentz, Butler, Hassan for Stanton. Miami's GM has shown interest in WMB, I think this should work! Now if Ellsbury somehow stays for say 5 years, then JBJ is much more likely, and valuable as a trade piece. JBJ, Webster, Marrero, Vazquez, Buttrey for Stanton seems likely. That seems like a pretty weak return for them; I think they take at least 2 of Barnes, Webster, Ranaudo and De la Rosa if we can do it without Owens and Swihart, and they probably ask for Cecchini and a few higher upside guys. Hassan and Butler both seem like they're most likely to be platoon guys or borderline starters, and Brentz and Marrero aren't widely well regarded. I think it takes 4-5 top 100 guys to get Miami to pay attention at all, definitely including one of Middlebrooks or Cecchini, and probably a couple of the highest upside AAA/mlb arms. I think a certain amount of the conversation depends on the kind of deals that get done for Price, and maybe how the Cards address their shortstop hole. There aren't too many teams that could/would really get into the mix that could outbid the Sox, so if the Cards dip into their farm system for Tulowitzki (unlikely probably, but I've heard rumors), and the rangers flip andrus/profar and some others for Price, who else is going to hand over the prospects/package the sox can offer? Yeah you're right they probably would want more, im not sure I would personally deplete the system for him though. I think the absolute max they should consider is owens, one of webster/ranaudo/barnes, middlebrooks, and a lower guy like Brentz/Hassan/Johnson/Butler. I think Stanton could be risky with his deep injury history and wouldnt throw Swihart and/or another of webster/barnes/ranaudo on top of this. Really hope they can pull something off for fair value though!
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Nov 14, 2013 2:13:50 GMT -5
I would offer Doubront/ Betts/ Webster (or Barnes, preferably Webster)/ Britton/ Vazquez/ Brentz/ Johnson/ Hassan. I think that could be enough to get the trade done. Doubront steps in at the #2, Webster at the #4, Betts could be starting 2b next year, Vazquez would compete at C, Britton would be a solid set up man, Brentz would challenge in the OF. For Stanton and possibly Cishek I could see this happening, they get a ton of quantity with high potentials, we get a OF who they soon cant afford to keep around, and a set-up man. Another way I could see this happening, although I wouldn't prefer this quite as much, would be Middlebrooks, Doubront, Marrero, Brentz, Butler, Hassan for Stanton. Miami's GM has shown interest in WMB, I think this should work! Now if Ellsbury somehow stays for say 5 years, then JBJ is much more likely, and valuable as a trade piece. JBJ, Webster, Marrero, Vazquez, Buttrey for Stanton seems likely. Trading Felix Doubront even up for Stanton has a chance of making you worse. Stanton was worth 2.9 bWAR last year, 0.5 less than Daniel Nava. Obviously, we don't expect that to happen again, but the downgrade from Doubront to Ryan Dempster is conceivably larger than the upgrade from Nava to Stanton. I repeat: the first principle of trades is you don't weaken one position to strengthen another. You don't trade your #3 / 4 starter and hence significantly weaken your starting rotation to improve elsewhere; that's just going more or less sideways.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Nov 14, 2013 3:01:42 GMT -5
Honestly this trade is bradley (around mid 20s on most lists ive seen) one of the SP prospects in the 50s or 60s and then 2-3 guys borderline 100. You are saying that that is better than getting two top 10 prospects. Of course cabrera was slightly better at the time than stanton is now but most teams would much rather a few really good guys than alot of decent ones. Would you trade that package for two top ten prospects cause i sure would It's been pointed out that Stanton is nowhere near the player Cabrera was at the time of his trade: averaging bWAR and fWAR, and weighting the last 3 seasons 3-2-1, he's 3.7 WAR versus 5.0. So I think the question you meant to ask is would I trade that package for one top 10 prospect and a couple of guys who might rank 20-30 in our system, and the answer is, never. I also think you're seriously overestimating the value of a top 10 prospect versus guys lower in the top 100. Because I'm insane, I just cooked up a function to randomly select one of the former and one of the latter from the years 2000-2009. Ruben Mateo, Joe Crede Clayton Kershaw, Chase Headley Homer Bailey, Matt Harrison Rickie Weeks, Ervin Santana Matt Cain, Ian Stewart Alex Rios, Jesse Crain Delmon Young, Brian McCann You get the idea.
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Post by greatscottcooper on Nov 14, 2013 6:51:38 GMT -5
To me it all comes down to Henry Owens. A lot of scouts see him as a back of the rotation guy but there are some who see him as more of a #2. If Florida is one of those teams who has scouts really high on him then I could see a package being centered on him.
Even then we'd probably still have to give up a few more of our top prospects and throw in a high ceiling guy like Margot.
With what this man is going to start getting paid in Arbitration me thinks the value of unloading your farm for Stanton is deteriorating. I'd love to have a big bat like Stanton to hit behind Bogaerts for years to come, but not at all costs
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Post by bmitchsox on Dec 14, 2013 3:28:36 GMT -5
A 3 to 4 team deal makes it a little easier than depleting our system. Someone else can give up prospects for our proven players.
Red Sox In: Giancarlo Stanton (Mia) Pirates In: Mike Carp (Bos) Mariners In: John Lackey (Bos), Drake Britton (Bos) Marlins In: Chris Taylor (Sea), Edwin Diaz (Sea), Anthony Ranaudo (Bos), Wendell Rijo (Bos), Ryan Lavarnway (Bos), Luis Heredia (Pitt)
Miami gets some great young talent: Taylor could step in at SS, and Ranaudo as their #3 or 4. Mariners are looking for quality pitching, and Pittsburgh is interested in Carp.
Red Sox In: Javier Baez Cubs In: Henry Owens, Allen Webster, Brian Johnson
They have Castro at SS, Bryant coming up at 3rd and Alcantera to play 2nd. Maybe Baez could be moved for the right price. Hopefully Ben sees his potential. The Cubs could really use some of our young pitching and might be willing to give up Baez in the right deal. These deals would build for the future, and still keep us in competition over the next 2 seasons-
2014 Roster RF Victorino 2B Pedroia LF Stanton DH Ortiz 1B Napoli SS Bogaerts 3B Middlebrooks C AJ CF Bradley
Lester / Buccholz / Peavy / Doubront / Workman Uehara / Mujica / Breslow / Tazawa / Badenhop / Miller / Wilson or Layne or FA (Marmol maybe) Ross / Nava / Gomes / INF (Espinosa, Nelson or Polanco)
2016 Roster CF Bradley RF Cecchini 3B Bogaerts LF Stanton SS Baez 2B Pedroia 1B Middlebrooks or FA C Swihart DH Nava or Nap or FA
Lester / Buccholz / Doubront / Barnes / FA (Tanaka, Scherzer, Price etc..) or Workman De La Rosa / Mujica / Breslow / Tazawa / Miller / Stankiewicz or Diaz / Workman or FA Brentz / Vazquez / Betts / Marrero
The future could be very bright!
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Post by sibbysisti on Dec 14, 2013 10:10:59 GMT -5
As the Subforum title says: "Go nuts".
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Post by bmitchsox on Dec 14, 2013 16:28:02 GMT -5
As the Subforum title says: "Go nuts". Hahah yeah Baez probably won't go anywhere, but that would be my dream lol. Him and Stanton would stroke at the Fens.
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 15, 2013 11:41:47 GMT -5
As the Subforum title says: "Go nuts". Unfortunately the thread title says "a logical look.."
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Post by bmitchsox on Dec 15, 2013 16:23:16 GMT -5
True, but I don't think the Stanton trade is far off. The M's need veteran pitching, and Pitt has shown interest in Carp. Something like that could make some sense for each team.
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Post by chavopepe2 on Dec 15, 2013 16:37:07 GMT -5
It is way off because that package isn't even close to something the Marlins would consider. Its nice that you made a complicated trade where three of the four teams might do it, but that is a god awful proposal. There might not be a top 100 prospect in that entire lot. You are literally asking the Marlins to give up Stanton for a bunch of middling prospects.
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Post by bmitchsox on Dec 15, 2013 20:12:12 GMT -5
How does this look?
Red Sox In: Giancarlo Stanton (Mia) Mariners In: John Lackey (Bos), Allen Webster (Bos) Pirates In: Mike Carp (Bos), Drake Britton (Bos) Marlins In: DJ Peterson (Sea), Anthony Ranaudo (Bos), Wendell Rijo (Bos) , Ryan Lavarnway (Bos), Reese McGuire (Pitt)
Peterson, Ranaudo and McGuire are all top 100 prospects.
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Post by jmei on Dec 15, 2013 20:18:05 GMT -5
Peterson, Ranaudo and McGuire are all top 100 prospects. None of them are top-50 prospects, though (plus, Peterson is a borderline top-100 guy at best), and teams almost always look for true blue-chip guys when they trade established stars like Stanton.
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